Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 109

Mon, 14 May 2007

• 1. Re: Yizkor second day yom tov in E'Y (T613K@aol.com)
• 2. Re: kerias sheni shel pesach (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: Yizkor second day yom tov in E'Y (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: fashion models and opera singers (mkopinsky@gmail.com)
• 5. Re: Justifying hatred (mkopinsky@gmail.com)
• 6. Re: Rabbi Isak Unna of Mannheim (was Re: Rav Unno) (Arie Folger)
• 7. Re: Yizkor second day yom tov in E'Y (SBA)
• 8. Re: Maariv Bezman (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 9. Maariv Bezman (David E Cohen)
• 10. Tochachah (Gershon Dubin)
• 11. Maariv Bezam (Yitzchok Levine)
• 12. Rabbi Isak Unna of Mannheim (was Re: Rav Unno) (SBA)
• 13. Re: Yeshiva is a Mikva to a Ben or Bat Niddah (T613K@aol.com)
• 14. Re: Yizkor second day yom tov in E'Y (T613K@aol.com)

 
 
From: Zev Sero _zev@sero.name_ (mailto:zev@sero.name) 

> and am wondering what  to do about Yizkor.   Do I say it on 
> the second day at a  chu'l  minyan in a yeshiva near my mother's house? 
[--old  TK]

>>This is, of course, assuming that you are keeping two  days.  OK.<<


 
>>>>>
Why wouldn't I?



--Toby  Katz
=============



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reuven koss wrote:
>  
>> Also the extraordinarily long reading of the first day of chol hamoed
>> Pesach, which is of course the reading for the second day of Pesach
>> in chu"l.  Why not cut it down a bit, to make it similar in length to
>> the other chol hamoed readings?

>           Dina d'gemara

The gemara doesn't say how long it needs to be.  Nor do I think the
gemara is paskening a din for EY; it's describing the minhag of Bavel,
where they kept two days of yomtov.



-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

T613K@aol.com wrote:
> From: Zev Sero zev@sero.name <mailto:zev@sero.name>

>>> and am wondering what to do about Yizkor.   Do I say it on
>>> the second day at a chu'l  minyan in a yeshiva near my mother's 
>>> house? [--old TK]
 
>>This is, of course, assuming that you are keeping two days.  OK.<<

> Why wouldn't I?

Not everyone does.

The SA Harav says to keep one day in EY and two in chu"l, no matter
where you're from, because the kedusha of yomtov on the second day
exists in chu"l and not in EY.

The Chacham Tzvi arrives at the same conclusion for a different reason:
We keep two days in chu"l nowadays, even though we know the calendar,
because of a letter from "There" to the Jews of Bavel, telling them
to keep up the practise of their fathers, who used to keep two days.
But when their fathers would go to EY for yomtov, they would keep only
one day, just as when the fathers of the Bnei EY would go to Bavel for
yomtov they would keep two days.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

On 5/14/07, T613K@aol.com <T613K@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >>Not being a opera buff, I don't know too much about  this.
> But MUST an opera always have a female singer?
>
>
> SBA
>
>
> Re your other question -- must an opera have female singers? -- they used
> to
>  have castrati, male sopranos.  I'm sure it's assur for bnai Noach  to do
> such a thing but once it's done, would it be mutar for a Jew to benefit  (by
> going to hear one of those poor mutilated men sing)?  I actually once  heard
> a
> recording of the last of the castrati (sorry I can't remember what the
> singular
> is) -- a recording made in around 1910 of a man who had been operated  on as
> a
> child probably fifty or sixty years before that.  Was I even  allowed to
> listen to that recording on the radio?
>
> --Toby  Katz
> =============

The Gemara in BM 90a-b discusses a case where a goy "stole"  a Jew's ox
and neutered it (ie it was a clear case of amira l'akum).  Avuha d'Shmuel
paskens that they should be punished by being forced to sell the ox.
(The Gemara says that this is not a proof that Amira L'akum is a problem
even by cases other than shabbos, since according to some shittos (R.
Chidka) neutering (animals, I assume it's the same for people) is assur
for goyim, and the Jews violated lifnei iver by giving their animals to be
neutered.

Based on this, I see no tzad issur to listen to castrati.  It's clear from
the Gemara that even if sirrus is assur l'bnei noach, and the case
involves amira l'akum or lifnei iver, the ox is not assur except for a
knas mid'rabbanan, and even then, they only have to sell it, and according
to Abbaye, they can even sell it for plowing, thus getting direct benefit
from the fact that their ox is neutered and thus a better plower.

KT,
Michael

On 5/12/07, Samuel Svarc <ssvarc@yeshivanet.com> wrote:
> >From: "Elazar M. Teitz" <remt@juno.com>
> >     Assuming the 13 Ikkarim to be y'sodos haTorah, which of them --
> >other than the first -- can be said to be instinctively known?
>
> Basically all of them. There are classical machlokisim about some, but we
> are referring, as do countless sifrei halacha, to the yesodos as a whole.
> Like for example, the CC in Ahavas Chessed, Chelek 1, Perek 3, "...Kol shu
> mamin b'shloshu asar ikrei hadas...".
>
What is at all instictive about Nevuas Moshe Rabbeinu?  Could you figure
that out without being told?  How about Meshiach?  or Techiyas Hameisim?
or Nevuah at all? etc. etc. etc.

Instictive:
     * natural:  unthinking; prompted by (or as if by) instinct; "a cat's
       natural aversion to water"; "offering to help was as instinctive as
       breathing"
       wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

R'nSB asked for a translation of the following:
> Unna, Dr. Isak (geb. 1872 W?rzburg, gest. 1948 Jerusalem, m?tterlicherseits
> ein Enkel des "W?rzburger Raw" Seligmann B?r Bamberger): studierte in
> W?rzburg und Berlin, zun?chst Rabbinatsassistent in Frankfurt am Main, seit
> 1898 Klaus-Rb in Mannheim, seit 1920 3. StadtRb in Mannheim (1924
> KonferenzRb des Oberrats, Exponent des gesetzestreuen Judentums, seit 1932
> Vorsitzender der "Gesetzestreuen Rabbinervereinigung Deutschlands", schrieb
> ein Werk zur Geschichte der Klaus-Synagoge Mannheim), Sept. 1935 nach Erez
> Jisrael eingewandert, Autor einer posthum 1964 in Jerusalem herausgegebenen
> Sammlung rabbinischer Gutachten (Responsen).

Unna, Dr. Isak (born 1872 Wuerzburg, died 1948 Jerusalem, maternally a 
grandson of the "Wuertzburger Rav" Seligman Baer Bamberger): studied in 
Wuerzburg and Berlin, afterwards assistant rabbi in Frankfurt on the Main, 
since 1898 pulpit rabbi in Mannheim, since 1920 3rd city rabbi [probably 
dayan -- AF] in Mannheim (1924 conference rabbi of the Supreme Council 
[probably the Council of Jewish Communities of Germany --AF], a 
proponent/defender of the [religious --AF] law-abiding Judaism, since 1932 
chairman of the "Association of Orthodox Rabbis of Germany," wrote a work 
about the history of the Klaus Synagogue Mannheim [probably a kind of 
Yekkishe shtiebel --AF], emigrated to Eretz Yisrael Sep. 1935, teh author of 
a posthumously in Jerusalem published collection of rabbinic responsa.

Source: http://www.alemannia-judaica.de/rabbiner_baw.htm
-- 
Arie Folger
http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com

From: "reuven koss" <>
> From: T613K@aol.com
  I'm going to be in Israel for  Shavuos
> IY"H and am wondering what to do about Yizkor.   Do I say it  on the
> second day at a chu'l  minyan in a yeshiva near my mother's  house?
 If so, what  do I do the first day when they say Yizkor in the  regular 
shul -- leave, stay
> =============
In the sefer yom tov sheni kehilchoso, he poskins that if one davens on the
second day with a chutznik minyon than one says it on the second day. He
brings a machlokes regarding leaving the shul during yizkor on  the first
day.
>>>>>>>>>>>>.

WADR, what would be the big deal if in such a case Yizkor was said it twice?
I doubt that there is a baal tosif issue here.

SBA 

R' A&C Walters asked:
> There is a similar halocho brought down beshaim the Gr"o,
> that davening maariv bezaman (after tzais) without a minyan
> is better than davening earlier (from Plag) with a minyan,
> even on shabbos. Does anyone know what his mekor for this is,
> befrat the Gemoro says "Ravi Tzali shabbos beerev shabbos"

I once heard the following argument, but unfortunately I have no 
sources for it inside. Namely: According to other poskim, Birchos 
Krias Shema have the same zmanim as Shmoneh Esreh, but according to 
the Gr"a, Birchos Krias Shema have the same zmanim as Krias Shema 
itself.

According to this, other poskim allow us to say Shema early in the 
morning, and then say all of Shacharis in the hour between Sof Zman 
Shema and Sof Zman Tefila. But according to the Gr'a, there is 
nothing gained by saying Shema early, and the latest one might delay 
shacharis is to reach Ga'al Yisrael in the last moment before Sof 
Zman Shema, and then continue with Shmoneh Esreh.

Getting back to R' Walters' question, if the above is accurate, then 
saying Brichos Krias Shema of Maariv prior to nighttime would be 
Brachos Levatolos, and it would be better to daven later without a 
minyan than to say brachos levatolos witht he early minyan. And when 
the Gemara says that Rav davened maariv on Erev Shabbos at Plag, 
perhaps the Gr"a would say that this means that he said the Maariv 
*Amidah* of Shabbos at Plag, but he said Shma (and Birchos Shma) 
later on, at night.

HOWEVER I must admit that if the above is accurate, then it is NOT 
TRUE that the Gra would say that it is better to daven a late maariv 
without a minyan than an early maariv with a minyan. Rather, he would 
say to daven Shmoneh Esreh with the early minyan, and to say Shma and 
Brachos later -- just like the case of where one walks into shul to 
find them ready to start the Maariv Shmoneh Esreh.

Akiva Miller

A or C Walters asked:
> There is a similar halocho brought down beshaim the Gr"o, that
> davening maariv bezaman (after tzais) without a minyan is better
> than davening earlier (from Plag) with a minyan, even on shabbos.
> Does anyone know what his mekor for this is, befrat the Gemoro
> says "Ravi Tzali shabbos beerev shabbos"

I don't know for sure if the following is actually the Gr"a's reasoning, but
here is my guess:

Rav was able to daven the tefilah of Shabbos on Erev Shabbos because the
question of whether or not there needs to be semikhas ge'ulah lisfilah at
night (machalokes R' Yochanan and R' Yehoshua` ben Leivi on Berakhos 4b) was
still unresolved.  Thus, the Gr"a would say, Rav was davening early, but
saying Keri'as Shema` (not repeating it, but saying it for the first time --
with its berakhos) at night.  Now that the halakhah has been set like R'
Yochanan, and we do have to be someikhh ge'ulah lisfilah at night, that
option is not available.

The working assumption here is that according to the Gr"a (unlike the minhag
ha`olam), one may not say birkhos Keri'as Shema` before the time for Keri'as
Shema` itself.

--D.C.

From: "Moshe Yehuda Gluck" <mgluck@gmail.com>
<<Ba'al Koreh immediately continued to read the Tochachah - without
making the Brachos on the Torah, and without there being an Olah. After
he finished (again, without a Brochah), they resumed their regular
scheduled programming. Has anyone ever seen this Minhag before? Does it
have a Mekor in the Poskim?>>

The only place I've "seen" it is in the M"B, I believe, who says not to
 do it.  I'd be interested if you could tell me (off list) which shul
that was.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

At 06:35 AM 05/14/2007, you wrote:

>There is a similar halocho brought down beshaim the Gr"o, that davening
>maariv bezaman (after tzais) without a minyan is better than davening
>earlier (from Plag) with a minyan, even on shabbos. Does anyone know what
>his mekor for this is, befrat the Gemoro says "Ravi Tzali shabbos beerev
>shabbos"

I can only wonder how one reconciles this with the fact that in the 
time of the Rishonim the Ashkenazim did wait to daven Maariv even on 
the first night of Shavuous. See 
http://personal.stevens.edu/~llevine/waiting_to_daven_maariv_shavuous.pdf

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From: "Shoshana L. Boublil" <>

> From: "Meir Shinnar" <>
> Issur of kol isha only applies to the problem of saying davar
> shebikdusha in its presence (tshuva of Rav Unno, the Rav of
> Mannheim before the war, justifiying having choruses of girls
> sing - arguing that this was ikkar hadin
===
> Am I the only person here who has never heard of him before?
===

Try googling for Rabbi Isak Unna of Mannheim.
>>>

Thanks. Did it - and here is the result of my 'research':

Leo Baeck Institute:   Publications:
UNNA, ISAK: For the Sake of Unity and Uniqueness; the Life,
Work and Teaching of Rabbi Isak Unna.
http://www.lbi.org/publications.html

///So who are the publishers??

>>The Leo Baeck Institute is devoted to studying the history of
>>German-speaking Jewry from its origins to its tragic destruction by the
>>Nazis and to preserving its culture. ....organization and welfare,
>>commerce, industry and politics, the arts and sciences, and in literature,
>>philosophy and theology. To appreciate the impact of German-speaking Jewry
>>in modern times, one need only recall such names as Martin Buber, Albert
>>Einstein, Franz Kafka, and Karl Marx.
Founded in 1955, the LBI was named for the rabbi who was the leader of
German Jewry during its darkest years. Rabbi Baeck, who survived the
concentration camp of Theresienstadt, became the first international
president of the institute.   http://www.lbi.org/about.html


///So who is Baeck?

From Wikipedia, Leo Baeck was an 20th century German-Polish-Jewish Rabbi,
scholar, and a leader of Progressive Judaism.
Baeck was born in Lissa ...and began his education near Breslau at the
Conservative Jewish Theological Seminary ..studied philosophy in Berlin with
Wilhelm Dilthey, served as a rabbi in Oppeln, D?sseldorf, and Berlin, and
taught at the Hochschule f?r die Wissenschaft des Judentums (Higher
Institute for Jewish Studies). ..After the war, Baeck relocated to London,
taught at Hebrew Union College in America, ..became Chairman of the World
Union for Progressive Judaism. ..In 1955, the Leo Baeck Institute for the
study of the history and culture of German-speaking Jewry was established,
and Baeck was the first international president of this institute.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Baeck
-----------


R are publicing him definitely places him, WADR,  in the category of
'kabdehu vechashdehu".

And of course using his sevoros against the accepted psak of virtually all
recognised rabonim - midor dor - would, IMHO, be nonsensical.

SBA

 
 

>>I realize this is just R' Yisrael Salanter's rationalism  talking, but
leshitaso, are a spiritual pegam and a character defect  different things?<<

Tir'u baTov!
-mi



>>>>>
I believe they are two different things, but a spiritual pegam can manifest  
itself in this world in a tendency to have certain character flaws.
 
The most striking example of the difference between a spiritual mum (which  
of course we in our physical lives cannot really grasp) and character is the  
case of a mamzer who becomes a talmid chacham.  He can be a godol  baTorah 
despite his spiritual "birth defect" but the blemish of mamzerus still  doesn't go 
away -- he is still "defective" for marriage.  (BTW can a  mamzer get an 
aliyah?  Just wondering.)

 

--Toby  Katz
=============



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From: "reuven koss" _kmr5@zahav.net.il_ (mailto:kmr5@zahav.net.il) 
I'm going to be  in Israel for 
> Shavuos
> IY"H and am wondering what to do about  Yizkor.   Do I say it  on the 
> second
> day at a  chu'l  minyan.... ?  If so, what 
> do I
> do the  first day when they say Yizkor in the  regular shul -- leave, stay 
>  but
> don't say Yizkor, say Yizkor and then say it  again the next  day?  Or do I 
> have
> to daven both days in the chu'l   minyan?
>


>>In the sefer yom tov sheni kehilchoso, he  poskins that if one davens on 
the 
second day with a chutznik minyon than one  says it on the second day. He 
brings a machlokes regarding leaving the shul  during yizkor on  the first 
day.<<
reuven  

>>>>>
Thank you.  Now I wonder what to do about leaving shul the first  day.  
Wonder what people generally do when they're in Israel for yom  tov?





--Toby  Katz
=============



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