Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 84

Sun, 22 Apr 2007

• 1. Subject: Re: Peanuts and other Kitnios (Zvi Lampel)
• 2. Re: Yom Haatzmaut and Behab (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 3. Re: When do the malachim come (Daniel Israel)
• 4. Re: Torah Study vs. other contributions to society (Doron Beckerman)
• 5. Re: When do the malachim come (Elliott Shevin)
• 6. Re: Interesting article in weekly Hamodia (Samuel Svarc)
• 7. Re: Torah study vs. other contributions to society (Samuel Svarc)
• 8. Aliyah l'regel (Jonathan Baker)
• 9. Re: Torah study vs. other contributions to society (Harry Maryles)
• 10. Re: [Areivim] Driving (Moshe Yehuda Gluck)
• 11. Fw: Fw:-SFIRA SHVUAYIM VYOYMAIM. (SBA)
• 12. Re: Fw: Fw:-SFIRA SHVUAYIM VYOYMAIM. (Micha Berger)
• 13. Environmentalism and Halacha (Jonathan Baker)
• 14. Religious Zionism, Between Rav Kook and Rav Soloveitchik - by Rabbi Yisrael Rozen, Director of Zomet Institute (Shoshana L. Boublil)

: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 R. Akiva Miller wrote:
 
>?A generation has now grown up which never saw Pesachdik peanut oil, 
nor reliable non-glatt meat. Which brings us to the question: Given 
that even 50 years ago, there *were* some groups who had a genuine 
minhag to avoid peanuts on Pesach, and also some groups who had a 
genuine minhag to eat only glatt meat, if a captive audience ends up 
following these practices only because of economic or availability 
reasons, does that mean that this has become their minhag? 
Personally, I doubt it. But go try to tell that to them!< 
 
This brings to mind the Gemora in Brachos about where in Shemoneh Essray to say havdalah. The Gemora says the question arose because when the Jews could afford it, it was recited not in tefillah but over a cup of yayyin. Over the generations the financial status of the Jews changed, some generations able to afford the wine for havdala and others not. The requirement changed accordingly (and thus the proper place for recital in tefilla was forgotten)..
 Zvi Lampel

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R' Marty Bluke:
> The answers that I received that Yom Haatzmaut is pushed off
> until Tuesday, actually raises more questions. How exactly
> does that work al pi halacha?

R' Moshe Yehuda Gluck answered:
> If Yom HaAtzmaut needs to have Hallel said on it, it is only
> because of the original institution of the practice, which,
> presumably, was made with this stipulation in mind.

RMYG's presumption seems to be in error. As R' David Cohen wrote, the 
original institution of the practice did *not* have this stipulation 
in mind. It was to say Hallel on 5 Iyar; not later, and not earlier.

Akiva Miller

On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 10:37:17 +0000 "kennethgmiller@juno.com" 
<kennethgmiller@juno.com> wrote:
>The logic has always been apparent to me: Why would a malach need 
>a door?

Why would a malach use a wall when there is a door available?  
Consider Rashi regarding the behaviour of the malachim visiting 
Avraham Avinu.

OTOH, thus far the sources mentioned here are greeting the Shabbos 
and greeting the Sh'china.  Where do we see malachim are involved 
at all?  (Actually, given the context of L'cha Dodi, what is the 
source for saying the Sh'china?)

--
Daniel M. Israel
dmi1@cornell.edu

R' Akiva Miller writes:

Yes, TuM does accept this approach, namely, if Torah
study is what you excel at doing, then go for it. There's nothing in
TuM which would want to prevent the world from having excellent
rabbis. TuM simply acknowledges that there *IS* value in other
studies, but chalilah that it would put them *above* Torah.

R' Akiva,

Is the Torah study in which the subject is engaged in only superior to other
contributions if he "excels" or will be an excellent Rabbi?

Let us take a hypothetical of an 18 year old of average-ish intelligence who
seriously learns Torah B'Taharah, decent Hasmadah, with no Parnassah
concerns, and with no aspirations of becoming a Rabbi.

This person could be a great medic if he would train, but he does not want
to give up the time needed for that course because he wants to continue
learning for  the foreseeable future.

He has no plans to go to college,  though if he would, he could be a great
psychologist. That would rob him of alot of time from Torah study. He will
live off of a Kollel stipend and his parents' considerable help, which they
will gladly give.

By age 40 or so, he'll be a Baki in a good few Massechtos, and he'll have a
good knowledge of Halachah, but he has no Rabbinical skills. There are
people aged 25 in Yeshivos who know far more than he does.

Has this person fulfilled his mission in life from a TuM perspective?
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Akiva Miller wrote:> > The logic has always been apparent to me: Why would a malach need a > door?I always thought we were greeting Shabbat haMalka. Surely SHE needs a door! Elly"Striving to bring Torah Judaism into the 58th century"
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>From: "Micha Berger" <micha@aishdas.org>
>Subject: Re: [Avodah] [Areivim] Interesting article in weekly Hamodia
>
>On Thu, April 19, 2007 4:29 am, R Samuel Svarc wrote to Areivim:
>: In this weeks Hamodia, Section E, first page, there is an interesting
>: article titled, "His Brain Made Him Do It". Some excerpts follow.
>
>: "The American legal system may never be the same again, if breakthroughs
>: in neuroscience continue to gain acceptance in court. Recent advances in
>: the study of the human brain indicate that malformations or damage to
parts
>: of the brain can account for violent behavior beyond the control of the
>: perpetrator. Criminal behavior that was once blamed on social conditions
>: or parental abuse are now being blamed on the brain."
>
>: And this tragically apropos one, "In 1966 at the University of Texas,
>: Charles Whitman went on a murderous rampage, killing 15 people before
>: being shot down by police officers. Whitman was discovered after an
autopsy to
>: have a tumor that was putting pressure on his amygdala."
>
>I have a blog entry at <http://tinyurl.com/yxwr7h> which deals with the
>neshamah-brain question in a way that IMHO resolves such questions.

I would be remiss if I didn't note that the article brings other viewpoints
as well. Such as this one, " "Even if his amygdala made him more angry and
volatile, since when are anger and volatility excusing conditions?" Morse
asks. "Some people are angry because they had bad mommies and daddies, and
others because their amygdales are mucked up. The question is, when should
anger be an excusing condition?" "

>Beqitzur, as a teaser to get you to chase the link:

Some of us can't chase the link, your truly amongst those, the one who
posted the original article. For purpose of conversation, you might want to
post the entry or condensed version.

KT,
MSS

>From: "kennethgmiller@juno.com" <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
>Subject: Re: [Avodah] Torah study vs. other contributions to society
>
>Very simple. Yes, TuM does accept this approach, namely, if Torah
>study is what you excel at doing, then go for it. There's nothing in
>TuM which would want to prevent the world from having excellent
>rabbis. TuM simply acknowledges that there *IS* value in other
>studies, but chalilah that it would put them *above* Torah.

I agree that it is chalilah to place them above Torah, however, a major
spokesman for TuM gives them equality. As I quoted in Areivim Digest V14
#281, "Rabbi Norman Lamm describes the Torah u'Madda philosophy in the
following terms: "Torah, faith, religious learning on the side and madda,
science, worldly knowledge on the other, together offer us a more
over-arching and truer vision than either one set alone. Each set gives one
view of the Creator as well as his Creation, and the other a different
perspective that might not agree at all with the first....
Each alone is true, but only partially true; both together present the
possibility of a larger truth." Rabbi Lamm's words are taken from his book,
Torah U'Madda, page 236."

KT,
MSS

Daniel Israel:
 
> Mazel tov, Mazel tov!  But nu, why not a bracha that they should 
> live in Yerushalayim, Ir HaKodesh, and not need to leave home for 
> aliyah l'regel?

And why is it "aliyah l'regel" when the way the halacha is practiced
seems to be "aliyah b'regel"?  Ascent to the foot?  The foot of what?
God's foot? (see Shiur Komah-type texts, also second chapter of gemara
Chagigah).

--
        name: jon baker              web: http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker
     address: jjbaker@panix.com     blog: http://thanbook.blogspot.com

Samuel Svarc <ssvarc@yeshivanet.com> wrote:
    >From: "kennethgmiller@juno.com" 
>Subject: Re: [Avodah] Torah study vs. other contributions to society
>
>Very simple. Yes, TuM does accept this approach, namely, if Torah
>study is what you excel at doing, then go for it. There's nothing in
>TuM which would want to prevent the world from having excellent
>rabbis. TuM simply acknowledges that there *IS* value in other
>studies, but chalilah that it would put them *above* Torah.

I agree that it is chalilah to place them above Torah, however, a major
spokesman for TuM gives them equality. As I quoted in Areivim Digest V14
#281, "Rabbi Norman Lamm describes the Torah u'Madda philosophy in the
following terms: "Torah, faith, religious learning on the side and madda,
science, worldly knowledge on the other, together offer us a more
over-arching and truer vision than either one set alone. Each set gives one
view of the Creator as well as his Creation, and the other a different
perspective that might not agree at all with the first....
Each alone is true, but only partially true; both together present the
possibility of a larger truth." Rabbi Lamm's words are taken from his book,
Torah U'Madda, page 236."

  -----------------------------------------------------------------
   
  Dr. Lamm has clearly and always put Torah ahaead of Mada. Your excerpt is merely a description of what  a totality  of knowledge might be versus the knowledege gained by each one alone. In other words he is saying thaqt both Torah and Mada are great and not assigning  relative value to either in this statement. His point is that studying both disclipnes  possibly gives one a larger truth than either one does by itself. One does not have to agree with that philosophy. But the fact is that  no where in your excerpt does he equate the two.
   
  HM




Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 

Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/
       
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R' Jonathan Baker:
*Then there's the SmartCar.  Gets almost 100 mpg.  Except, to fit
*American emissions standards, it only gets about 50-60 mpg on the
*few models that make it to the States.

OK, someone had to do this - what Mekor is there that Jews should be
environmentally friendly? (Answers on Avodah.)

KT,
MYG

from a friend. (I wish he used lower case...)

HAYOM 16 YOMIM LOMER. HAYOM SHESH-ESREI YOM 
SHE-HEIM .......SHVUAYIM VE- YOMAYIM 
IS THE PROPER HEBREW/LOSHON HA-KOYDESH/IVRIT GRAMMAR !

SO WHY DONT WE SAY SO ?
WHO AND WHEN AND WHERE MADE THIS MISTAKE ??
( NO WORD AS SHNEI YOMIM, SHNEI SHVUOT, SHNEI SHANIM IN OUR HOLY LANGUAGE)
DOES ANYONE HAVE A CLUE ??

On Sun, Apr 22, 2007 at 03:02:16PM +1000, SBA forwarded from a friend
(case mine):
: Hayom 16 yomim lomer. Hayom shesh-esrei yom 
: she-heim .......shvuayim ve- yomayim 
: Is the proper Hebrew/Loshon Ha-Koydesh/Ivrit grammar!

For Chumash, either would be used. For example, Hashem didn't create
"me'orosayim".

But already by the time we get to Tehillim, only "shenei" would be
correct. The use of the du'al form was reduced to only referring to
things that come in pairs.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

RMYG:
> JJB:

>>Then there's the SmartCar.  Gets almost 100 mpg.  Except, to fit
>>American emissions standards, it only gets about 50-60 mpg on the
>>few models that make it to the States.

>OK, someone had to do this - what Mekor is there that Jews should be
>environmentally friendly? (Answers on Avodah.)

Well, the most obvious is bal tashchis - if there's another use for a 
tree, don't just destroy it.

There's the whole stewardship issue: yes, Genesis says to conquer the
earth, that is, make it useful to yourself.  But there's also shmitta,
and similarly Shabbos, which makes clear that we don't actually own the
world, God does, we just have to take care of it, and we know the halachos
of she'eilah and shemirah - we can't just wantonly destroy the Earth without
incurring liability.  LaH' haaretz umelo'ah, tevel veyoshvei vah.

Here's a quote from the Chinuch 529: "This is the way of pious and
elevated people... they will not waste even a mustard seed, and they
are distressed at every ruination and spoilage they see, and if they
are able to save, they will save anything from destruction with all of
their power... 

There's a lot of stuff at http://www.brook.com/jveg/, although you can 
probably ignore a lot of the vegetarianism-specific stuff.

There are lots of sources, but I can't place a finger on them now.  Let
me contact some people and get back to you.

One place to start would be http://www.canfeinesharim.org/

Also, listmember R' Eli Turkel wrote an article on Judaism and the
Environment for the Fall 1991 Journal of Halacha & Contemporary Society.

--
        name: jon baker              web: http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker
     address: jjbaker@panix.com     blog: http://thanbook.blogspot.com

For those who seek to know, here is an article on the topic by one of the leading rabbis of our time.



Shoshana L. Boublil





POINT OF VIEW



Religious Zionism, Between Rav Kook and Rav Soloveitchik - by Rabbi Yisrael Rozen, Director of Zomet Institute



"It has turned completely white, it is pure" [Vayikra 13:13 ].



On this occasion of the fifty-ninth celebration of Yom Haatzmaut for Isreal, we will dedicate our column to the two central focal points of the ideology of religious Zionism. I will present to the best of my understanding the common thread of the two main foundations of this movement. I am referring to the school of thought of Rabbi Avraham Yitzchak Kook and its extensions and to the approach of Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik and his followers. Each one is simply called "the Rav" by his disciples, without any other name necessary. 



A Missed Opportunity or a Process of Redemption



There can be no doubt that the two approaches are not the same! It is written, "Chabakuk came and put them all on a single basis" [Makkot 24a]. We will also use a single unified basis for the approaches of the two rabbis towards Eretz Yisrael. As far as Rav Kook is concerned, this is "the start of the redemption," while for Rav Soloveitchik it is "a missed opportunity." 



Here is what Rav Soloveitchik wrote in his monumental work, Kol Dodi Dofek (the title is from Shir Hashirim 5:2, "my lover makes a knocking sound"):



"In the midst of the nightmare of Meidanek, Treblinka, and Buchenwald , in the dark night of gas chambers and smokestacks... in this night, the hiding G-d rose up, in a hidden canopy. He appeared suddenly, and He began to knock at the tent of His downtrodden and anguished beloved one... As a result of the knocking at the door of the beloved one, steeped in mourning, the State of Israel was born... 



"During that night of secrecy the lover rose, knocked and begged that she should open the door of her tent, 'for my head is full of dew, my hair with the rain of the night' [Shir Hashirim 5:2]... But the beloved refused to leave her bed. 'I have taken off my garment, how can I put it on? I have washed my feet, how can I dirty them?' [5:3]. Her heart had turned to stone. 



"The lover continued His knocking, and the beloved answered, but it was too late, and the vision of exalted life receded and diminished. An hour later, she jumped in panic from her bed, 'I rose to open the door for my lover,' (but) 'my lover had gone' [5:6]... 



"What is the point of Shir Hashirim if not a description of the paradoxical and tragic delay of the loved one, if not a missed opportunity of momentous meaning for the world..."



This profound description points to a tragic missed opportunity. The State of Israel did not respond to its Divine Lover. What arose was Israel but not the Jewish nation! From the moment of that "nightmare... night of secrecy," the knocking has not ceased. The window of opportunity evidently opens up "now and then, from time to time," but the missed opportunity continues, and the time of redemption has yet to come. 



As opposed to this, the approach to the redemption that comes from the courts of Rabbis Avraham Yitzchak and Tzvi Yehuda Kook is that political Zionism (note that Israel was not established in the time of the older Rav Kook) and the State of Israel are "stages" in a ladder which has advances and retreats along the way. "The time of redemption" is a process like the days of spring (with some rainy days), also based on a verse in Shir Hashirim, one that is less decisive than "Kol Dodi Dofek": "The blossoms have appeared in the land, the time of the nightingale has arrived, and the voice of the dove can be heard in our land" [ 2:12 ]. "When there is a great war in the world, the power of the Mashiach awakens. 'The time of the nightingale' refers to the song of the noblemen... The world becomes infused with scent, and 'the voice of the dove' can be heard in our land." [Chapters of War, 1]. 



A mainstay of this approach is constant change, a winding path, hide-and-seek. "'My Lover is like a deer' [2:9] ? just as a deer is revealed and then goes into hiding, the same is true of the first and the last redeemer" [Bamidbar Rabba 11]. The key word of redemption in this approach is "slowly, bit by bit." "'Who is this looking down like the dawn?' [ 6:10 ] ? Rabbi Chiya and Rabbi Shimon Bar Chalafta were walking in the Arbel Valley . They said, this is the way the redemption of Yisrael will be. It will start bit by bit, then it will begin to glimmer, afterwards it will increase, and then it will spread out" [Shir Hashirim Rabba].



The Paradox of the Mashiach's Donkey



The people of religious Zionism, in all their sectors, ponder over their relationship to the State of Israel every single day, especially with respect to internal or external events which must be approached from the point of view of values and not just pragmatically. Those who support either of the two approaches outlined above are often torn apart by questions of dual loyalty, to the Torah or to the state. Are we in the midst of a process of redemption or for the time being are we missing a Divine opportunity? 



Religious Zionism has had the wisdom to live with this complex reality from its earliest beginnings, and this is almost its defining characteristic. The complexity often serves as a reason for mockery, by the Chareidi sector on one hand and by secular Jews on the other hand. But in reality this (the complexity, not the mockery) is our pride and joy! The youth who are educated in our institutions have also learned to accept and internalize it. I reject the simplified declaration which is sometimes made about our educational system, claiming that "the youth does not understand complexity. They demand decisiveness and think in only one dimension!" This is simply not true! And this is what can make us proud! 



The "complexity" of the modern State of Israel today would be considered "a Divine paradox" by Rav Soloveitchik and "the birth pangs of Mashiach" by Rav Kook.



The verse quoted above from this week's Torah portion is a perplexing one. After all, white hair in a "nega" ? a blemish ? is a sign of impurity. Why then does it become pure if it turns completely white? Rav Soloveitchik would probably have answered that this is a paradox, and then delve into the realms of purity and impurity deep within the human soul. In Rav Kook's approach, based on a combination of mysticism and Chassidut, the matter is related to the secret of Mashiach. "This is the secret of 'a pauper riding on a donkey' mentioned by the Tikunei Zohar, that the generation of the Mashiach is good on the inside and bad on the outside. It is the secret of the verse, 'it has turned completely white, it is pure.' There is a donkey in the Divine plan which has the sanctity of the firstborn but is hidden away in the depths for the time being. This is the main point of the approach that was taught in the palace of the Mashiach, as is written at the beginning of the Zohar." [Igrot Re'iyah volume 1, page 370]. 



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