Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 11

Wed, 31 Jan 2007

• 1. Yosef (Gershon Dubin)
• 2. Re: Moshe Rabeinu's stuttering (SBA)
• 3. Jewish Approaches to Secular Education - Rabbi Hershel Schachter (Rich, Joel)
• 4. Re: Yosef (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 5. Minimization of the Heter Mechirah (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: [Areivim] if they asked, it would have been assur (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: [Areivim] if they asked, it would have been assur (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: [Areivim] if they asked, it would have been assur (Micha Berger)
• 9. edah online (Newman,Saul Z)
• 10. Re: [Areivim] if they asked, it would have been assur (Moshe Yehuda Gluck)
• 11. ATID Fellows -- Apply Now (Jeffrey Saks)
• 12. AV of interest (Newman,Saul Z)
• 13. Re: [Areivim] if they asked, it would have been assur (Moshe Yehuda Gluck)
• 14. Re: [Areivim] if they asked, it would have been assur (A & C Walters)
• 15. Re: [Areivim] if they asked, it would have been assur (Micha Berger)
• 16. Re: [Areivim] Kosher Swiss Cheese (Micha Berger)

From: "Ilana Sober" <>sober@pathcom.com

<<why should we assume that Yosef WOULD normally have contacted
Yaakov? Would he, in fact, have considered himself free just because he
had
gone from being a prisoner to being the viceroy?>>

Forget the freedom issue.  He was sold by all of his brothers except
Binyamin, after having
been sent to Shechem by his father, who knew of their enmity to him.  Is
it so outlandish to
consider that his father was in on the plot and had no interest in
hearing from him?

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

From: "Alan Rubin" <>
I haeard the following idea from Clive Lawton..Moshe's problem
 with speech was specifically with
regard to the Bnei Yisroel and not Pharoah. Since Moshe had been
brought up at court he had no problem communicating with the
Egyptians. He spoke their language and was unique in his ability to
speak with Pharoah. On the other hand he had been brought up apart
from the Bnei Yisroel and was worried about relating to them.
>

Except that it seems to go against a befeirush posuk..
"Hen Bnei Yisroel lo shomu elay - v'eich yishmo'eini Paroy
va'ani aral sefosoyim.."

Hashem could have replied - it's only the Jews that you have 
communication problems with - not Paroy..

In fact by that time, Moshe Rabeinu had been away from 
Paroy and Mitzrayim for around 60 years.

All this reminds me of a pshat I heard a long time ago, that MR 
was saying to the RBSO,
"Hen Bnei Yisroel lo shomu elay" - the Jews would not not listen to me,
"Ve'eich" - and how will I look ["vos fara ponim vel ich hoben"], if
"yishmo'eini Paroy" - Paroy DOES listen to me..?

SBA

 
http://www.yutorah.org/showShiur.cfm?shiurID=717414

Worthwhile listening on a favorite avodah/areivim (yes I do vaguely
remember that list:-)) topic

Of particular interest are R' HS's take on the Chazon Ish/surgery story
as well as the historical reasons for the differences between sfardic
and ashkenazic approaches.  His analysis of  what happened in Volozhin
and current trends and the or lagoyim issue are also of interest.

KT
Joel Rich
 
 

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Gershon Dubin wrote:

> Is it so outlandish to consider that his father was in on the plot and had no interest in
> hearing from him?
>
>   
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On Tue, January 30, 2007 9:14 am, RSBA pointed us on Areivim to
<http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=12057>:
: Chief Rabbinate to Reduce Use of Special 7th-Year Dispensation
:
: The Chief Rabbinate plans to reduce its reliance on the controversial "land
: sale dispensation" for the upcoming Shemittah "year of fallow."
...
: The Chief Rabbinate's announcement states, "Only in cases where it becomes
: clear that the national kashrut system could be harmed [by the introduction
: of agricultural produce resulting from overt violations of the Shemittah],
: or in cases where the sustenance of farmers would be dealt a severe blow, or
: where it is feared that Jewish farmers will abandon agriculture altogether,
: will the dispensation be implemented."

I think this is consistent with RAYK's original intent. The heter was to keep
the yishuv viable. I do not know if there was ever a thought that the heter
mechirah would be used when (1) EY economy isn't as agrarian and (2) even the
farmers have other fiscal options.

I'm posting this to Avodah as a means of asking whether someone has meqoros
from the period that would indicate one way or the other. I'm simply repeating
what I heard 12th hand or so.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Sun, Jan 21, 2007 2:23pm EST, RZS wrote in reply to RMYG:
: Sirus is an issur deoraisa.  Even chemical sirus is assur for a male.

BTW, I wondered about the limits of this. Is it assur for a man to eat black
licorice? (Assuming it's flavored with licorice or liquorice, and not anise,
black licorice reduces fertility by lowering serum testosterone levels.) To
separate the matter from piryah verivyah: must even a single man, or someone
whose wife is post-menopausal, be careful about his choice of undergarments?

: And though the article doesn't say so explicitly, it's pretty clear
: that the hormone regime is a prelude for surgery.  The only heter I
: can think of is medical necessity.  Even if it's not actual pikuach
: nefesh, because, e.g., he could have been restrained and prevented
: from doing anything to himself, that's not a life....

There are times when threat to sanity is considered piquach nefesh. The only
case I can think of is WRT abortion after rape, and the only pesaq lema'aseh
that I know of was from the Satmar Rav, and where the pregnancy was to be
terminated before 40 days. I do not know the relative chumrah of abortion
before 40 and sirus, but I would therefore not be surprised if someone were to
pasqen lequlah or lechumrah in the case of severe psychological distress.
OTOH, if one matirs, what other cases would ever exist? Who else would
consider sirus? Wouldn't that be la'aqor davar min haTorah in a manner in
which no din is left?

I do not see it muchrach either way.

...
:> Also, mah dino? Rambam (Hilchos Nashim 2) discusses the various
:> simanim, if these are all surgically or chemically induced does it
:> halachically change one?s gender? And, Lu Y?tzu?yer that Surgeons manage
:> to have a (?former?) man give birth ? do we say Banim harey hein
:> k?simanim?

: The Tzitz Eliezer paskens that the person is now a woman, and if she
: hadn't given her wife a get earlier, she wouldn't need one now,
: because she's no longer an eshet ish.

And before surgery the person is an androgynus, or male?

Medical science is very far away from the lu yetzuyar.

RAF offered to email out a PDF on the subject. If he likes, I can put it on
Avodah's misnamed "fax" area.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

Micha Berger wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 21, 2007 2:23pm EST, RZS wrote in reply to RMYG:
> : Sirus is an issur deoraisa.  Even chemical sirus is assur for a male.

> BTW, I wondered about the limits of this. Is it assur for a man to
> eat black licorice? (Assuming it's flavored with licorice or liquorice,
> and not anise, black licorice reduces fertility by lowering serum
> testosterone levels.)

I know of no makor, but it seems to me that sirus means making someone
completely sterile (or so close to it as not to make any practical
difference), not merely reducing his fertility.


> I do not know the relative chumrah of abortion
> before 40 and sirus, but I would therefore not be surprised if someone were to
> pasqen lequlah or lechumrah in the case of severe psychological distress.
> OTOH, if one matirs, what other cases would ever exist? Who else would
> consider sirus? Wouldn't that be la'aqor davar min haTorah in a manner in
> which no din is left?

1. people have vasectomies/tubal ligations every day, without suffering
any kind of distress, but simply because they don't see themselves ever
(again) wanting children.

2. The issur would remain against sterilising other people, who have no
medical necessity, without their consent.  (In addition to the issurim
bein adam lachavero, of course.)

 

> : The Tzitz Eliezer paskens that the person is now a woman, and if she
> : hadn't given her wife a get earlier, she wouldn't need one now,
> : because she's no longer an eshet ish.
> 
> And before surgery the person is an androgynus, or male?

He was male.  She is now female.  The fact that he was a fertile man
and she is now an infertile woman doesn't matter.  There are plenty
of infertile women, who nevertheless have the full status of females.
He is no different, according to the TzE.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

On Tue, January 30, 2007 12:19 pm, R Zev Sero wrote:
:> : The Tzitz Eliezer paskens that the person is now a woman, and if she
:> : hadn't given her wife a get earlier, she wouldn't need one now,
:> : because she's no longer an eshet ish.
>
:> And before surgery the person is an androgynus, or male?
:
: He was male.  She is now female.  The fact that he was a fertile man
: and she is now an infertile woman doesn't matter....

I had asked about the state of the person after hormones but before surgery.
Would the TE still hold that gender is determined by current external
large-scale anatomy, or would he hold that the person is still male, since
andogynus is itself a safeiq?

I also wonder if the TE would hold the gender changed for all matters, or if
this was a means of searching lehatir agunah, and he would pasqen lechumrah
WRT mitzvos asei shehazman gerama?


Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

http://www.yctorah.org/content/view/211/64/  at YCT. see review of taharat
hamishpacha book
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R' MB:
*I had asked about the state of the person after hormones but before
*surgery.
*Would the TE still hold that gender is determined by current external
*large-scale anatomy, or would he hold that the person is still male, since
*andogynus is itself a safeiq?

I had always understood that Androgynous is not a safek, but a beryah bifnei
atzmah; Tumtum is a safek.

KT,
MYG

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http://etshalom.com/podcast/ podcast of megilat esther issues

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R'MB:
*> BTW, I wondered about the limits of this. Is it assur for a man to
*> eat black licorice? (Assuming it's flavored with licorice or liquorice,
*> and not anise, black licorice reduces fertility by lowering serum
*> testosterone levels.)
R' ZS:
*I know of no makor, but it seems to me that sirus means making someone
*completely sterile (or so close to it as not to make any practical
*difference), not merely reducing his fertility.

The minhag is a makor: It is a long standing practice for Jews of many areas
to enjoy the "shvitz" - which can apparently cause temporary sterility.

<SNIP>
R'  ZS:
*He was male.  She is now female.  The fact that he was a fertile man
*and she is now an infertile woman doesn't matter.  There are plenty
*of infertile women, who nevertheless have the full status of females.
*He is no different, according to the TzE.

Notwithstanding R' MB's subsequent comment (that he was referring to a
pre-op situation), what would the TzE say if "she" stopped (post-op) taking
the hormones that gave her feminine characteristics, and returned physically
to being male-like? (Although there is the obvious exception of the areas
affected by the surgery - but would "she" be considered as a "he" who had a
particularly nasty accident? Campare to a P'tzua Daka or Krus Shafcha who
still have a din of "he" l'chol davar.) 

Also, if the TzE is paskening that "he" became a "she" even pre-op (about
which I may misunderstand), and "her" wife doesn't need a Get, then what if
"she" stops taking the hormones? Is the wife retroactively married?

KT,
MYG 

makhlokes rishonim,

4 shitos:

1) sofek
2) chetzi
3) vadai zochor
4) beryeh bifnei atzmoy

kol tuv

> I had always understood that Androgynous is not a safek, but a beryah 
> bifnei
> atzmah; Tumtum is a safek.

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On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 10:30:41 +0200, "A & C Walters" <acwalters@bluebottle.com> wrote:
>> I had always understood that Androgynous is not a safek, but a beryah
>> bifnei atzmah; Tumtum is a safek.

> makhlokes rishonim,
> 4 shitos: 1) sofek 2) chetzi 3) vadai zochor 4) beryeh bifnei atzmoy

Anyone have MM for who holds what and why?

And, since the nature of birur fascinates me, what would be the nafqa minha
between safeiq and cheitzi?

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 13:07:44 -0700, "Daniel Israel" <dmi1@hushmail.com> wrote to Areivim:
> My experience is that Parmesan is almost invariably eaten either
> melted, or very finely ground, or both, and my understanding is
> that this would obviate the halachic requirement for waiting.

Could you provide a mar'eh maqom? Because I've been waiting 5+ hours after
food sprinked with Parmesan cheese, and would (in theory, if I enjoyed the
taste) after Swiss cheese as well.

<plug>Arukh haShulchan Yomi just began Yorah Dei'ah on Monday, so I guess
I'll get there eventually. (Still a good time to join us! See the calendar
at <http://www.aishdas.org/luach>).

Tir'u baTov!
-mi
--


-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             The Maharal of Prague created a golem, and
micha@aishdas.org        this was a great wonder. But it is much more
http://www.aishdas.org   wonderful to transform a corporeal person into a
Fax: (270) 514-1507      "mensch"!     -Rabbi Israel Salanter




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