Avodah Mailing List

Volume 21: Number 7

Tue, 14 Nov 2006

• 1. Peshat (Zvi Lampel)
• 2. Re: taking off chalah from cake dough (Samuel Svarc)
• 3. [YGB - ??"?] Another Good BK Q, from our talmid Daniel Apfel (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 4. Yishmael (Yisrael Medad)
• 5. Re: Updated Toldah DBor Notes (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)

The Hebrew texts of Rabbaynu Saadia Gaon's (al HaTorah) and Rav Yosef Albo's (in Sefer HaIkarrim) expositions on "peshat" 
can be seen by clicking on the following:

http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/rsgalhaTorah.pdf (the last line of the 
first page is trimmed, but readable)
and 
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/ikkarim.jpg

My translations of the above can be seen by clicking on:

 http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/rsgalhaTorah.doc and 
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/ikkarim.doc
 

I also think it's worthwhile reviewing the following Avodah posts from the past:
"Pshat vs Drash, Rambam in Shmone Prakim " in 02:007;
"P'shat vs Halachah" in 02:122 
"pshat vs. derash" in Avodah 2:123 and 129;
"Pshat vs Drash" in 2:129, 10:087, 088, 090 and 096--especially the post from RRWolpoe; 

Zvi Lampel



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>From: "kennethgmiller@juno.com" <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
>Subject: Re: [Avodah] taking off chalah from cake dough
>
>R"s Gershon Dubin, Mordechai Cohen, Samuel Svarc, Arie Folger, and
>Ilana Sober all seemed to say that it is unlikely to reach the shiur
>for challah when one bakes at home.
>
>But the article from Rabbi Dovid Heber of the Star-K, at
>http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-issues-challah.htm, which RMC had
>pointed us to, says that the shiur by bread is 12.25 or 16.5 cups of
>flour, while for mezonos it's only 8.66 cups. So I'm wondering what
>their point was. In other words, it seems to me that anyone who has
>to take challah from the bread they bake is even MORE likely to have
>to take challah from the cake they bake.

From a cookbook I had at hand. About four cake recipes require at the
most 1 and 1/2 cups of flour. Basically the same for cookie recipes.
Four of them required at the most 2 cups, with a yield (at the lowest)
of 20 cookies.

Unless you're going to bake commercially (very, very large family;
mishloach manos; simcha) you're not going to run into any problems.

KT,
MSS 

This one is easier to answer, but since I received (mostly offline) so 
many wonderful answers to yesterday's questions, here is today's:


On :?? ?, the ??' says that an ????', that a person puts into ???? 
?????, is???? ?????? ???? . ??? explains that this is so because when it 
became a ???, (when he put it in ???? ?????) it was able to do ???.

But, on :?? ? the ??' says that a tree or wall that was in a persons 
private property that fall into the middle of ???? ?????, and the person 
doesn?t get rid of it and it does damage, he's ????. The ??' continues 
to say that this is not a case of ???, rather it's learned out from both 
??? and ???. The reason this is says the ??', is because its not ???? 
?????? ????. ??? explains that the reason behind this is because when 
the wall was first built, and the tree first planted they were not able 
to do damage as a ???. But according to the first ??' it should be ???? 
?????? ????, because when they first were in ???? ????? they were able 
to do damage as a ????? So what is ???? ?????? ????? Is it that when it 
was first in ???? ????? it was able to do damage as a ???, or is it that 
when it was first created/recognizable as a wall, tree, rock etc., it 
was able to do damage as a ??????
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Since we're on the subject, those who read the parsha carefully noticed an
example of semantic deconstruction.  The verses 21:16-17read:

*"And she [Hagar] sat over against him, and lifted up her voice, and wept.
And God heard the voice of the lad;"*

True, the Midrash notes that Hashem listens to those who pray, and
extrapolates that Yishmael must have prayed, but the literay aspect is why
didn't he listen to Hagar and why doesn't it explicitly say that Yishmael
prayed?  There's a subtle dislocation here.  A mother's voice is not up to
the mark?  And why not write "an Yishmael prayed, too and..."?

-- 
Yisrael Medad
Shiloh
Mobile Post Efraim 44830
Israel
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Some answers by chashuve TC's. The CS is still a problem, though, and he 
makes quite a bit of sense:


??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???  ?? ?/?
??? ??? ???' ?? ?? ??????. ???? ???????? ????? ???? ???"? ????? ??? 
"????? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ?? ????? ??? ?? ??????" ?"? ????? ???? ????? 
??? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?' ?????? ???? 
????? ????? ???? ???????? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ????? 
???? ?' ????? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? 
???? ?????. ??? ?"? ???????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??"? ??' ??? ?? 
???? ????? ??"? ??"? ????? ??? ?? ????' ??? ??? ????? ??"? ??? ??? ?' 
????? ?????? ??' ??? ?? ?? ?' ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ?? ??? 
???' ??? ??? ???? ??? ?' ??? ??? ??"?, ??"?::


*RYGB N"Y

Sholom Aleichem,
Long time no talk!


1) actually it is Tos.'s question in reverse, (also other Baalei Tos. in 
the Shita). However just like at the end of Tos. he is Michaleik between 
what says Bhedya, Rashi was very specific in his language in the first 
Lishna he says that it is learned (only) from a Diyuk, in the second 
Lishna he says that it is (only) a Mashmo'us vs. what he writes in the 
explanation of why the Ptur of Odom is only on Missa he says Mishto'ee 
meaning the straight and simple meaning of the Possuk, so while Diuk and 
Mashmo'us might be enough written to make an Av it is not enough to 
extend the Miyut of Shor vlo Odom. (this also touches on the issue of to 
which Lishna is the Ikkar when there are 2).

There is a beautiful piece of the GR"A on this, see Frankel's edition on 
Rambam Nizkei Momon 13:2 who learns differently how we can say both are 
included and still the Miyut applies only to Missa, (and it would fit in 
to Rashi here), for which I would say that Rashi as a Pashton learns the 
Gemara here Al Asar the way it fits best, as the Gemara calls them both 
Ovos, and later after we reached a Maskana as to what the Av and Toldah 
are and what Rav Popa is talking about, he Teitches bPashtus Hksuvim (as 
is brought in Klolei Haposkim, that Rashi Teitches each place according 
to Pshat al asar, we also find similar idea in Klolei haRambam that he 
will bring his own Pssukim if it is more direct).

2) Without getting into Halacha of it, I would say simply that since 
"ain Darkon Shel Bnei Odom Lihisbonein Bdrochim" (later 27b and see Tos. 
there) it is "Diber HaKosuv Bhoveh", Mah Shein Kein animals normally 
look on the ground and are less likely to trip, and WRT Keilim you would 
need the person (or the animal) to bring them to the state that they 
would be damaged. BTW the Nmukei Yosef in Hameiniach says also like 
Rashi here.

To number 2: See also the Gemara 54b that a normal animal is pottur when 
falls in by day because an animal "Boee Lei Iyunei uMeizal", brought 
Lhalacha C"M 410:19, and see SM"E s'k 33 on the Ramoh that even fron 
Nizokin he is Pottur, and the Chiuv on animals is in exceptional cases.*


??? ??? ???

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????? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????". ????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? 
??? ??? ?"? ?"? ???? ???? ????? ???.

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????? ???? ????, ???? ???? ???, ???? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???, ?????? ?"? 
???? ??"? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ??? ?"? ?"? ??????? ?? ?? ?? 
???? ???? ?? ???? ??.

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???? ????? ???. ??? ???? ?? ????, ???"? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ?? 
?????? ????? ??? ?"?. ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?"? ?"? ?? 
???? ?????? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ???.

??? ??? ?? ??"? ???? ??? ??????? ?? ?????? ???? -- ????? ???? -- ?????? 
??? ?? ??? ???, ?? ??? ??? ??? ???, ???? ????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? 
???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????. ?? ?? ?? ?????, ?? ???? ??????? ??? ?"? 
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???? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ????, ?? ????? ?? ?????, 
????? ??, ??? ????? ??? ???.

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?' -- ??????? ???? ??????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ???, 
??????? ????? ????? ??? ?'.

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??? ??? ?? ?? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ??' ?????' ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?? 
??? ????, ?"? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??????". ???? 
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?"? -- ?????? ???? ??????? ?"? -- ????? ??? ????? ???????? ????, ????? 
???? ??????, ??"?.

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??? ?"? ??? ????? ????, ??"? ??? ???? ??????? ?? ??? ?????.

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??? ?????? ???", ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??? ?????, ???? ??? ????? 
????? ???. ??"? ?????? ???? ?"? ??? ????, ????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? 
????? ?????, ???? ??? ?"? ???? ???? ????? ???, ??"?
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