Avodah Mailing List

Volume 17 : Number 040

Friday, May 12 2006

• RE: Married with AIDS
• Re: Challah on the table during kiddush
• Re: Challah on the table during kiddush
• Re: Challah on the table during kiddush
• Re: Spilling wine at the Seder
• Re: Spilling drops of wine at the Seder
• Re: hallel on 16 Nisan
• tachanun on pesach sheni
• Wise does not make Rich
• RE: Malachim (was Spilling drops of wine at the Seder)
• Re: Challah on the table during kiddush
• Avraham recognizing Hashem
• Re: Avraham recognizing Hashem
• Re: Avraham recognizing Hashem
• Another one for the historians
• Re: Another one for the historians
• Re: Challah on the table during kiddush
• Re: Challah on the table during kiddush

R' Dovid Rier:
> Not exactly. Although there is a significant risk to the baby if the
> mother is HIV+, the transmission risk can be lowered in certain ways,
> such as by administering the drug AZT.

If this is muttar, KV metzitza b'feh...

KT,
MYG

From: T613K@aol.com
> 1. The challa should be on the table from lecht-bentshing, to avoid
> making the table muktza. It should not be removed for kiddush and brought
> back afterwards -- rather, it should be covered, which accomplishes the
> same purpose, is practical, and honors both the challa and the kiddush....

i always understood that if you are putting the challos on the table so
that the table should not be a bosis, then they should be placed there
before one places the neros shabbos on the table, otherwise the table
will be a bosis ldaavar ha'asur.

> 2. No other food should be on the table before kiddush. If any food
> is on the table it should be covered, but it really shouldn't be there
> in the first place.

why not, the problem with challos is that if one has wine and bread in
front of him one should first make the brochos on the bread, however
wine and fish one would make the brocho on the wine.

> 3. The candles should be on the table, not on the sideboard.
> The Yekkes have lovely candleholders that hang from the ceiling, above
> the table. That's a beautiful custom and can be adopted by non-Yekkes,
> too. (My sister has one of those.)

i have never seen candleholders above the table- and i am at least
half yekke. i have seen an oil menora for shabbos in many places, but
that was for oil before there was electricity and that is not only a
yekkishe minhag.

reuven 

> Reversing this question, why would anyone do that ("pre-slicing")? No
> one I've ever asked had a reason for doing it, they just see everyone
> else doing it, so they've copied it. btw, where's that rema? it would
> be useful to have.

Having started this discussion (about pre-slicing challos), I decided
to look up some of the sources, rather than rely on "IIRC".

The Rema can be found in OC 167:1, to the effect that the challos on
Shabbos should not be cut (the term "lachtoch" is used) so that they
remain whole for the purposes of lechem mishne. The source for this
ruling is Tosfos (B'rochos 39b, s.v. "V'hilchoso"), which notes that it is
better to be strict and not cut the challos until after birkas hamotzi.
This ruling is cited with approval by the Magen Avraham, Shulchan Aruch
HaRav, Mishna Berura and Aroch HaShulchan.

R. G Dubin wrote:
> What you're supposed to do is make a siman, not cut most of the way
> through. Are you saying you've never seen anyone do THAT?

Of course I have. In fact, I have never seen anyone do anything
otherwise, which is why I asked the question. But that is not what Tosfos
or the Rema prescribe. It is clear from Tosfos that during the week,
one should cut the bread to the point where it will still hold together
(as RZL pointed out), make hamotzi, and then tear the bread apart with
one's hands ("shelo yafrish haperusa min hapas ad achar habracha"),
but not on Shabbos. This much is also clear from the MA, Shulchan Aruch
HaRav, MB and AhS, who all agree with the Rema. In fact, the AhS writes
"v'chen minhag haposhut v'ein l'shanos"!

The source for the prevalent custom (ie to make a siman before hamotzi)
can be found in the Maharshal, cited by the Bach and Ateres Z'keinim, who
writes "ha-m'dakdekim r'gilim lirshom" (ie make a slight indentation in
the bread) before hamotzi. This, indeed, seems to be the prevalent custom
(nowadays we are all m'dakdekim!), even though it is not accordance with
the majority of poskim or the minhag in Lita (as stated by the AhS).

I have to admit that I am baffled by this Maharshal (and the prevalent
custom). Picking up the knife to finish the cut is the very thing that
we are trying to avoid, as it constitutes a hefsek of sorts. As is
clear from Tosfos and the BY, the idea is to pre-cut the bread with a
knife sufficiently so that one can simply tear off the perusah after
hamotzvi with minimal interruption. I often see people fumbling around
after hamotzvi to find the "siman" which had just made, thereby drawing
out the process even further.

By the way, the Poskim point out that when the bread is very thin, eg
matzos, there is no need do anything before hamotzi, as one can simply
break the bread after the bracha without the need to pick up a knife.

Kol tuv
Dov Kay

On Tue, May 09, 2006 at 10:10:18AM -0400, Shaya Potter wrote:
: Reversing this question, why would anyone do that ("pre-slicing")?
: No one I've ever asked had a reason for doing it, they just see everyone
: else doing it, so they've copied it.

Aside from the reason everyone else gave...

When you make a berakhah, you're supposed to have in mind which portion
you're about to eat. The mevareikh therefore marks out where his peice
will be before making the berakhah.

I've heard both reasons, but like someone else asked -- does it really
save any time to score the challah first?


Back to the original question...

On Tue, May 09, 2006 at 07:19:12PM +0200, R Moshe Simons wrote:
: See Tosafos to Pesachim 100b - d'h' Sheain:
: Tosafos quotes a gemara in Shabbos that if the table is set upon arrival
: back from shul, the good angel gives a blessing. I understood Tosafos to
: mean that the table being set is with bread - as such the Challos need
: to be on the table upon arrival home from shul - not just during Kiddush.

I just took Tosafos (originally Morah Miriaim, when she explained Shalom
Aleikhem and coming home with two mal'akhim) to mean that if the home is
Shabbesdig, and the sevivah is there, the mal'akh gives a berakhah.

(I tend away from formulaic concepts like one gets a berakhah if the
challah is out. That tendency has spawned a number of threads here, like
the power of a mezuzah vs mitzvas mezuzah, or how qaddish can change
the matzav of the niftar.)

But one more question: What's so terrible if the table is muqtzah? On
how many Shabbasos do you move the table? A basis ledavar ha'asur isn't
asur behan'ah, only betiltul, no?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 28th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        4 weeks in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Malchus sheb'Netzach: What role does
Fax: (270) 514-1507      domination or taking control play in building brotherhood?

R'n Chana Luntz writes:
> But something that has been intriguing me since this question of
> spilling the wine at the seder came up, but I have not really had any
> luck finding anything on is is on what basis one is permitted to spill
> wine out at all, given the b'zayon d'ochlin involved, regardless of
> the reasons given on
> this list.....
>                         ....I can't see how any of the other mitzvos
> of pesach, and certainly not the references quoted to remembering the
> gvuros of Hashem, allow us to mistreat wine in contradiction to an
> explicit gemora and Shulchan Aruch.

For havdala we say "kosi revaya" and we let the wine overflow even though
some of it will thus be wasted. This doesn't answer your question of
course, but obviously some forms of "mistreatment" of wine are allowed.

 -Toby  Katz
=============

Wed, 10 May 2006 From: ""Jonathan Baker"" <jjbaker@panix.com>
> ...for Al Naharos Bavel, the psalmist was in Bavel, we were a conquered
>people, yearning for revenge. ...Pesach is also about recreating an
>experience, the experience of Yetzias Mitzrayim. So it's a question -
>what feelings are we trying to recreate? Sure, in the aftermath of the
>immediate salvation from the pursuing soldiers, we said Shirah, but do
>we need to recreate that feeling, of a week later, while recreating the
>feeling of the moment of Exodus?

A very interesting approach, introducing the factor the proximity in
time to the persecutors' acts. But the concept under discussion of
tempering celebration is based upon the proper reaction demanded of the
Melachim at the time of the "salvation of the pursuing Egyptians." So,
unless one introduces another idea, that the conduct expected of Melachim
somehow relates only/even to the way it should be later on (being that
Melachim exist outside the barriers of time, perhaps?--are you listening,
Rabbi Berger? <g>) it would seem to be the same kind of situation as
in Al Nahros Bavel, wherein Dovid HaMelech prophetically replicated the
feelings of the nation at the moment of capture.

Zvi Lampel

From: "David Riceman" <driceman@worldnet.att.net>
> From: "Micha Berger" <micha@aishdas.org>
>> Rather, the kelal would seem to only refer to qorbanos listed in Pinechas,
>> those we call qorban Musaf.

> But the gemara in Eirchin (10b) just says korbanos.

> From: "reuven koss" <kmr5@zahav.net.il>
>> the Sifsei Chochomim on Rashi there says that the korban is brought for
>> the chiyuv of the omer, not as a spcial mussaf.

> But the psukim associate it with mo'ed, meaning occasion, not event.
> Why isn't hakravas ha'omer sufficient occasion for hallel?

because the omer is not associated with pesach whereas the mussaf is
associated with pesach.

reuven 

After our discussion on YH for those who want to be machmir SA OH 131
implies one should say tachanun on pesach sheni. Those looking for
kulot I found a shitah not to say tachanun for 7 days including and
after pesach sheni.

Fot those who think these rules are 2000 years old these differences of
opinion are relatively recent.

 --
Eli Turkel

One of the frum magazines had an editorial recently in which was cited
as a proof that HaShem controls the world that otherwise that one would
see that wise people would also be the most financially wealthy. I would
like to see this reference inside: it was cited in the name of the Baal
Shevet Mussar but I have not yet found it in his sefarim.

HG Schild
hgschild@yahoo.com

On May 11, 2006, Zvi Lampel wrote: 
> being that Melachim exist outside the barriers of time

How do you know?

I can think of several examples indicating that malachim are at least
somewhat limited by concepts of time. One example is the famous ma'amar
Chazal that malachim cannot say shira until we do. Another is the famous
Rashi on the pasuk "shalcheini, ki ala ha'shachar" which indicates that
malachim have a specific time when they must say shira. I don't know
how malachim perceive the passage of time (I'm getting a feeling of
deja vu from my old Dessler battles with RMB on Adam haRishon and time)
but it certainly seems that they are at least somewhat connected with
the barriers of time. What sayeth you Zvi (or anyone else)?

Simcha Coffer

"reuven koss" <kmr5@zahav.net.il> wrote:
> i always understood that if you are putting the challos on the table so
> that the table should not be a bosis, then they should be placed there
> before one places the neros shabbos on the table, otherwise the table
> will be a bosis ldaavar ha'asur.

Common misperception. The important kove'ah of basis is what's there
bein hashemashos, not what order they're placed on the table.

<<why not, the problem with challos is that if one has wine and bread
in front of him one should first make the brochos on the bread, however
wine and fish one would make the brocho on the wine.>>

You're missing the point of the discussion, which revolves/d around
NOT bringing food to the table until after kiddush ("ki heichi deleisi
seudasa liykara deshabata"), as a second reason for covering challos in
addition to shelo yir'eh hapas boshto. This second reason applies even
to, yes, fish.

Gershon

Can anyone tell me where is the source for Avraham's realization that
God exists?

Is it the "ain bira bli baal habayis"? Or is it a Medrash about him
living in a cave during his early years and coming to the conclusion in
that way? Is it a Medrash or Gemara? Any help would be appreciated.

thank you,
cbk

It is in Gemara (Ndarim 32a) and in Midroshim, quoted at lentgh in
Rambam Hil. Avodas Kochovim 1:3.

Kol Tuv,
Yitzchok Zirkind

CBK wrote:
> Can anyone tell me where is the source for Avraham's realization that
> God exists?
> Is it the "ain bira bli baal habayis"? Or is it a Medrash about him
> living in a cave during his early years and coming to the conclusion in
> that way? Is it a Medrash or Gemara? Any help would be appreciated.

Here are some sources from my sefer Daas Torah

*Medrash****(Bereishis Rabbah 30:8)* Reish Lakish says Avraham was 3
years old when he recognized G-d. Rav Yochanon said he was 48 years...

*Medrash****(Bamidbar Rabbah 14:2)* ... Abraham on his own came to
recognize G-d... There was no one who taught him...He did it on his
own. He was one of the four people who on their own learned to know
G-d. Job... Hezekiah king of Judah... Moshiach... own unaided effort. It
was the same with Abraham...

*Zohar**** (1:86a) ...Abraham...when he saw the sun rising in the
morning from the East thought it was G-d, and said "this is the King
that created me," and worshipped it the whole day. In the evening when
the sun set and the moon started shining, he said, "The moon must rule
over the sun that I had worshipped the whole dayג€"because the sun is
now dark." Therefore, he worshipped the moon that night. In the morning
when he saw the darkness disappear and the sun shine again, he said,
"There must be a king who rules over all these lights and arranges
them." Therefore, when G-d saw Abram's longing to find Him, He revealed
Himself unto him and spoke with him...

*Bereishis Rabbah****(39:1): G-d said to Avram: You should leave your
country... /This may be compared to a man who traveled from place to place
and saw a burning palace. He asked in wonder: Is it possible that this
palace not have an owner to look after it? The owner looked out and said
"I am the owner of the palace." Similarly when Avraham asked whether
it was possible that the world could be without an owner to look after
itג€"G-d revealed Himself and said "I am the owner of the palace."..

*Malbim****(Bereishis 26:1):* Avraham was given 10 tests by G-d because
he had come to recognize his Creator through philosophical thought and
analyses. However, G-d wanted him to have a perfect unconditional faith
which would be independent of intellectual analysis and understanding.
In other words that he should be totally obedient to His will. Therefore
He tested him with ten trials to ascertain whether Avraham totally and
unquestioningly accepted what He did. In contrast, Yitzchok who already
had strong emuna because he had received it from his father did not need
these tests...

 ------------------------

In contrast to the simple understanding of the above that Avraham relied
on his human philosophical approach the Avodas HaKodesh 3:21 has a long
discussion of this and asserts that Avraham had a mesora.

We know that the talmidei Rabbi Akiva all died between Pesach and Shavuos.
Do we know that their deaths were all necessarily in the same year,
or possibly between Pesach and Shavuos over the course of several years?

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

On Thu, May 11, 2006 at 10:51:30PM -0400, Gershon Dubin wrote:
: We know that the talmidei Rabbi Akiva all died between Pesach and Shavuos.
: Do we know that their deaths were all necessarily in the same year,
: or possibly between Pesach and Shavuos over the course of several years?

It was "almost all", leaving 5 critical survivors.

Their deaths were attributed an epidemic, a lung disease. Yeish omerim
that's a code word for the Hadrianic persecutions, clamping down after
Bar Kochva, something no one wanted to complain about in public while
still under the Roman thumb.

Draw your own conclusions about how spread out either event would be.

:-)BBii!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 29th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        4 weeks and 1 day in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Chesed sheb'Hod: When is submitting to another
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       an act of kindness?

 From RTK's "Frum Table-Setting 101."
> 3. The candles should be on the table, not on the sideboard.

There's a lot of halachot related to lighting candles - the bulk of them
in OC 263 (though the simanim before and after also talk about it.)

Not only don't I see any mention of a table, there's clear indication
to the contrary:

+ 263:6 Bochrim living away from home have to light in their rooms
and make a brocho. MB 29: Even of they only sleep there and eat in
another house.

+ 263:8 brings a machloket if more than one person can light in the
same room. MB 38: Everybody agrees you can light in your private room,
even if you don't do any food-related activity there.

+ 263:9 If you light in the house and eat in the garden it's a brocho
levatolo if the candles don't burn into the night. MB 40: It seems that
if you eat inside, the candles don't have to last into the night.

Siman 279 talks about the permissibility of moving the leichters once
the candles burn out. Even there there's no specific mention of having
them on the table.

(BTW: The AhS seems to say that our "leichters" (as he calls them) may
not be moved under any circumstances! He also seems to say that a loaf
of bread is insignificant WRT to leichters.)

In the KSA 75:8 he writes that you have to light in the place you eat,
so that it's clear the light is for Kavod Shabbes. In 75:12 he writes
that you should put the challos on the table before lighting the candles.

However, trying to prove either way from pre-electricity seforim is hard,
as it was probably taken for granted that the candles were on or above
the table.

We used to light on the table, until I got fed-up of having to worry
they'd be bumped and toppled. We light on a shoulder-height shelf near
the table. (My wife stands on a stool to reach.). Every few years the
electricity blows Friday night (usually when we have important company)
and we eat by candle-light. There'd probably be more light if the candles
were on the table, but even from the shelf the lighting is manageable.

 - Danny

From: "Gershon Dubin" <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
> "reuven koss" <kmr5@zahav.net.il> wrote:
>> always understood that if you are putting the challos on the table so
>> that the table should not be a bosis, then they should be placed there
>> before one places the neros shabbos on the table, otherwise the table
>> will be a bosis ldaavar ha'asur.

> Common misperception. The important kove'ah of basis is what's there
> bein hashemashos, not what order they're placed on the table.

sorry about that, i was looking at the gaon in ma'ase rav who says that
it doesn't help to put the challos even before one puts the neros.

>> why not, the problem with challos is that if one has wine and bread
>> in front of him one should first make the brochos on the bread, however
>> wine and fish one would make the brocho on the wine.

> You're missing the point of the discussion, which revolves/d around
> NOT bringing food to the table until after kiddush ("ki heichi deleisi
> seudasa liykara deshabata"), as a second reason for covering challos in
> addition to shelo yir'eh hapas boshto. This second reason applies even
> to, yes, fish.

no, the subject was Frum Table-Setting 101 (we hope to see 202) where
the sevara of ki heichi deTeisi seudasa liykara deshabata is not poskined
in sh"a.

in siman 271 se'if 9 the sh"a is poskining shelo yireh hapat boshto.
also it could be, but this is not definite, that in siman 262 se'if 1
that the table should be set- iow the food on the table. i know a lot of
sefaradim who have all the salads and fish out before the meal. i have
also seen gedoei torah with salads on the table b'sha'at kiddush. bl"n
if i have tme i will look up the beis yosef over shabbos. reuven

<Gershon>

*********************


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