Avodah Mailing List

Volume 17 : Number 008

Sunday, April 9 2006

• Re: Haaretz: Rabbinical Court allows cohen to marry daughter of non-Jew
• Re: jewish identification
• kitniot
• Re: Corn - Is it Qitniyos?
• Re: Corn - Is it Qitniyos?
• kashrut for Pesach
• Re: kedusha questions
• Waiting After Milchigs
• Re: Minimal Seder
• Re: Corn - Is it Qitniyos?
• community
• Re: 3 kedusha questons
• Re: Bracha on Pizza (was: Mezonot Bread)
• Re: Bracha on Pizza (was: Mezonot Bread)
• Re: Bracha on Pizza (was: Mezonot Bread)

RRD wrote:
>  So perhaps
> the circumstances presented to the Israeli Beis-Din led them to the
> conclusion that this was a shaas ha'dchak. The Haaretz article mentions
> no relevant details, so it's impossible to know.

Arutz 7 mentioned that they already have a child together, so it is a
clear she'at had'haq.

Arie Folger

On Apr 7, 2006, at 07:53:42 -0500GMT, M' Lisa Liel wrote:
> I wasn't suggesting that it was gratuitous on your part. But we differ
> on our approach to the Daat Mikra. Anything in the Daat Mikra that
> goes against even a general assumption of Torah Jews requires serious
> iyyun, in my view. They are far too eager to adopt any view that has
> a scholarly consensus, without any concern at all about what Chazal may
> say on the issue.

I had a teacher once who felt that Da`at Miqra' specificly left out
certain ideas that had a scholarly consensus behind them because those
ideas were (at least in the editors of DM's opinion) contrary to the
mesora. He said that DM was a good resource for seeing what types
of archeological/historical findings and theories were acceptable in
an Orthodox context, and if something wasn't there it may well be too
'kefiradik' for general audiences.

 -Stephen (Steg) Belsky
  "only the extremes are logical; but they are absurd."
      ~ samuel butler

> His point is that we don't need to add to that list and use the original
> intent of Qitniyos to Asser more stuff, and hence peanuts which have no
> such mesorah are OK, even if it may have fit original criteria, as we
> are not obligated to grant it Qitniyos status.

> This is a remarkable Hiddush, but gives a clear understanding in the
> Minhag of Qitniyos, that the Minhag is memetic in nature rather than a
> textual issur based on a set of reasons.

Based on these ideas can someone explain the prohibition of sunflower
oil, canola oil, lecitin, rapeseed and other products which dont seem
to be kitniot, are new and further many are only oils and cant be used
in their original seed form.

kol tuv
--
Eli Turkel

R. Jacob Farkas asked why corn is considered Kitniyot.

When I was a kid in the 1950's, we learned that the translation of DAGAN
("dagan v'tirosh" in Parshat Ekev) was "corn". When you're 7, you think
"corn" refers to corn on the cob. Only it doesn't. The European KORN
(note spelling; also found in the King James translation of the Bible as
'corn") refers to a GRAIN. When rabbanim 120 years ago heard about the
American "corn" they knew it wasn't one of the 5 species that is chametz
but assumed it was equivalent to the European "KORN". Only it wasn't!

The gemara (Messechet Sofrim 14:18) states MINHAG MEVATEL HALACHA
since every custom is based on the Torah because if it isn't, it's TO'EH
b'SHIKUL ha'Da'at). The Shulchan Aruch (YOREH DEAH 214:2) states that
once accepted, a minhag also binds one's descendants. The BNEI HA'IR
can even force acceptance of a Minhag GARU'A (Choshen Mishpat 163:3).

Yet, if a custom was abolished one reverts back to the prior custom (EVEN
Ha'EZER 45:2 quoting the Rivash). However, customs once accepted are not
to be abolished or ridiculed (ORACH CHAIM 690:17 quoting the Beit Yosef)
nor to be changed (YOREH DEAH 39:18; YOREH DEAH 89:4).

There is such a thing as MINHAG TA'UT or SHTUT (See: Tosafot in Pesachim
51a; Be'Er Heitev Orach Chaim 182 in Hilchot Birkat Ha'mazon; Be'er
Heitev Orach Chaim 653 in Hilchot Lulav; and in Orach Chaim 551:4 in
Hilchot Tisha B'av. The Rambam in Hilchot Issurei Biah also mentions this.

What's comical is that the mei kitniyot of corn (corn oil) and ITS
derivatives like lecithin also become kitniyot.

CHAG KASHER V'SAMEACH
Josh

I am surprised by parts of R' JFarkas's posting on kitnios.

First he notes that R' Moshe states that kitnios is only those items that
were in the original ban and that new items should not be added. Then he
says that when potatoes appeared there could have been reason to include
them but "for whatever reason" they were not. IIRC,the Hayyei Adam
mentions the de'ah that bulbes (potatoes) are kitnios. Rabbanim who
disagreed remarked that the Hayyei Adam cannot asser bulbes because
bulbes are chayyei adam.

RJF then calls R' Moshe's heter for peanuts (except for one who has
a family minhag not to eat them) "a remarkable chiddush" but, in my
young days while still in the US, I had never met anybody who did not
eat peanuts on Pesach.

While my family was not very machmir and used any oil with a reliable
hekhsher, the charedim used on Pesach only one brand, Zupnik's Peanut
Oil. In 1952, three years after arriving in Israel, I met Harav Menahem
Ofen, the first person I knew who kitniosed peanuts. We, his friends,
were mildly surprised and joked about it.. I saw him on Pesach two years
ago, after a gap when we saw him rarely. After greetings, my first remark
was "nitzachtanu". He knew what I meant.

Further, R' Moshe is not the only one who said and say that new
items should not be added to the fixed list. Harav Kook, when he was
rabbi of Yaffo gave a hekhsher for sesame seed oil. Some Yerushalayim
rabbanim objected. His reply was that sesame seed is not on the list.
Even it it had been on the list, the oil, extracted from dry seed,
would be permitted as yotz'ei kitnios. Another point he made, now almost
forgotten, is that the issuer kitnios is to treat them as if they are
one of the chameishet haminim. Raw dry wheat or barley seeds are not
chametz. Only if wet do they become chametz. Similarly one can open a
pea pod and eat dry peas. When wet they become "k'ilu" kitnios. The
issur of kitnios cannot be greater than the issur of real chametz.
Some 70 years after this p'sak, while visiting the USA, I heard a shiur
where I was informed that kitnios have a chumra that chameshet haminim
do not have. One can eat dry wheat berries but not peas.

Which is the "remarkable chiddush"?

Some 15 to 20 years back, while I was cleaning the cellar before pesach,
my wife called me to come up and look at something. On the Shemen brand
soy bean oil she had just bought, under the label "kasher l'fesach", a
second line stated, "'asui mikitnit". I said, it means that botanically
soya is a legume. It has nothing to do with kashrut. I returned to the
cellar, and looked at some old bottles that were there. Sure enough,
one was a Shemen bottle from the previous year with the exact same label
and hekhsher but without the extra line. It was still limhadrin.

Almost needless to say, two years later, the label was changed again to
"l'okhlei kitniot" and some years after that it was changed again to
"l'okhlei kitniot bilvad"!

Harav Shaul Yisraeli ztz"l paskened that peanuts and soya are not
kitnios. Harav Dov Lior also paskens that way to this day. Many of
their talmidim continue this old custom. The last four years, as age
has made pesach preparation a bit too much, we go to a child for the
seder and then to a hotel for the rest of the week. The hotel is more
modern than me and, for it, everything possible is now kitnios. I can
suffer through the "lo shruya" after having been m'kayyem the mitzvah
of kneidelach at the seder. But to accept the ribbui kitnios? Never!
I take with me five macaroons made with peanuts and soy bean oil and
eat one each day. So nobody who reads this can ever eat in my house.

BTW, we do not eat corn on Pesach because my mother told me it was
included in the ban. That minhag shtus (R' Yechiel miParis, IIRC) was
made before I was born. But chadashim mikarov ba'u are not minhagim
for me and mine.

If I can make the time, I'll continue raving on this subject by bringing
the words of R' Ya'akov meEmden (who I suppose was really from Altoona
having left Emden to avoid being the rav there.) It might be after Pesach
before I can get to it.

Before signing off, I'll make sure some list members will put me in
cherem by pointing out that on the first two mornings of Pesach I will
fulfill my mother's minhag kavua of putting pieces of matzo in my
coffee (made with coffee BEANs). To be more machmir, I will use the
shmurah matzo that I make with my sons and grandsons on erev Pesach.
At the hotel,I'll be meikil and make do with the macaroons.

Enuff already!!

Pesach kasher v'sameach,
David

An addendum to the list I gave recently from the shiur I attended

Rings on fingers need to be Ha-agalahed.

Paper filters for coffee have chametz on them and not to be used.

On Pesach buying milk and drinking water from the kinneret have the
same problem of relying on filters (in Israel cows are not fed chametz
2 weeks before Pesach). Hence, whoever is machmir on one should also be
machmir on the other.

One must not have 1 drain pipe from the 2 sinks as it "cooks" meat &
milk when hot water is applied. For Pesach, one should also take apart
this drain pipe and search for hamets. Alternatively, pour very strong
cleaning agent to render the food inedible.

--
Eli Turkel

I just saw a collection of additions to my posting on copycatting
customs but, after my long ranting on kitnios I cannot go into this
second subject.

But, lo khlum is not for me so, just a drop:

Re: <<We can add to that a style of covering the eyes for _Shema`_
where the fingers pinch towards the bridge of the nose.>>

When copying another's custom, be careful how you do it. The approved
Sefaradic cover up is not to pinch the bridge of the nose. The
forefinger, middle finger and ring finger point up to make a shin. the
thumb is bent to make a dalet. The little pinky is a yud. Put them
together and they spell...

And for a final shot for the night: Is it true that covering the eyes
is only for those incapable of closing them?

More to come, some day, IY"H.
PKVS,
David

Does anyone have a mar'eh makom for how long one must wait after milchigs
to eat fleishigs? I am specifically talking about a situation where one
can't/does not want to do kinuach v'hadacha. I believe a'mah d'var say
a half hour (except for hard cheese). I've asked around and looked a
bit myself, and haven't found a makor.

KT and CKVS,
MYG

>> Here's a similar but more common question. Many of us have people at
>> the seider table who do not understand Hebrew. What items must one make
>> sure are also said in English?

> I've long wondered about the opposite question, also - at a seder where
> many don't understand Hebrew, what items must one say in Hebrew? Or are,
> at the very least, preferable to say in Hebrew?

I can't imagine any reason to say anything in Hebrew for someone who
doesn't understand it. Certainly not the brachos (unless the listener
has an accurate translation to follow), and absolutely not the story. The
MB states this explicitly.

What I have done is when I get to a bracha that I want to say in Hebrew
(because even good English translations don't quite do it for me) I
say, "OK, now we're going to make the bracha on the 2nd cup [insert
explanation as needed] -- you can say it in Hebrew, English or just
listen to me and say Amen afterwards." By the way, I provide them with
a transliteration too.

> First he notes that R' Moshe states that kitnios is only those items that
> were in the original ban and that new items should not be added. 

This is the Masqana of RMF as I understand it.

>                                                      Then he
> says that when potatoes appeared there could have been reason to include
> them but "for whatever reason" they were not. IIRC,the Hayyei Adam
> mentions the de'ah that bulbes (potatoes) are kitnios. Rabbanim who
> disagreed remarked that the Hayyei Adam cannot asser bulbes because
> bulbes are chayyei adam.

This is from the T'Shuva, RMF uses potatoes as an example of an item
that fit the criteria but did not make the list. Had it made the list,
even for unjustified reasons in his position, it would have been Minhag
and thus binding. Thankfully, it did not make the list.

> RJF then calls R' Moshe's heter for peanuts (except for one who has
> a family minhag not to eat them) "a remarkable chiddush" but, in my
> young days while still in the US, I had never met anybody who did not
> eat peanuts on Pesach.

The remarkable Hiddush is not that peanuts are permitted, rather it is
that the minhag of Qitniyos is a list based minhag, rather than strictly
a criteria based Minhag. Peanuts are just one example of an item that
didn't make the list historically, and so benefits from this distinction.

> While my family was not very machmir and used any oil with a reliable
> hekhsher, the charedim used on Pesach only one brand, Zupnik's Peanut
> Oil. In 1952, three years after arriving in Israel, I met Harav Menahem
> Ofen, the first person I knew who kitniosed peanuts. We, his friends,
> were mildly surprised and joked about it.. I saw him on Pesach two years
> ago, after a gap when we saw him rarely. After greetings, my first remark
> was "nitzachtanu". He knew what I meant.

> Further, R' Moshe is not the only one who said and say that new
> items should not be added to the fixed list. Harav Kook, when he was
> rabbi of Yaffo gave a hekhsher for sesame seed oil. Some Yerushalayim
> rabbanim objected. His reply was that sesame seed is not on the list.
> Even it it had been on the list, the oil, extracted from dry seed,
> would be permitted as yotz'ei kitnios. Another point he made, now almost
> forgotten, is that the issuer kitnios is to treat them as if they are
> one of the chameishet haminim. Raw dry wheat or barley seeds are not
> chametz. Only if wet do they become chametz. Similarly one can open a
> pea pod and eat dry peas. When wet they become "k'ilu" kitnios. The
> issur of kitnios cannot be greater than the issur of real chametz.
> Some 70 years after this p'sak, while visiting the USA, I heard a shiur
> where I was informed that kitnios have a chumra that chameshet haminim
> do not have. One can eat dry wheat berries but not peas.

> Which is the "remarkable chiddush"?

> Some 15 to 20 years back, while I was cleaning the cellar before pesach,
> my wife called me to come up and look at something. On the Shemen brand
> soy bean oil she had just bought, under the label "kasher l'fesach", a
> second line stated, "'asui mikitnit". I said, it means that botanically
> soya is a legume. It has nothing to do with kashrut. I returned to the
> cellar, and looked at some old bottles that were there. Sure enough,
> one was a Shemen bottle from the previous year with the exact same label
> and hekhsher but without the extra line. It was still limhadrin.

> Almost needless to say, two years later, the label was changed again to
> "l'okhlei kitniot" and some years after that it was changed again to
> "l'okhlei kitniot bilvad"!

> Harav Shaul Yisraeli ztz"l paskened that peanuts and soya are not
> kitnios. Harav Dov Lior also paskens that way to this day. Many of
> their talmidim continue this old custom. The last four years, as age
> has made pesach preparation a bit too much, we go to a child for the
> seder and then to a hotel for the rest of the week. The hotel is more
> modern than me and, for it, everything possible is now kitnios. I can
> suffer through the "lo shruya" after having been m'kayyem the mitzvah
> of kneidelach at the seder. But to accept the ribbui kitnios? Never!
> I take with me five macaroons made with peanuts and soy bean oil and
> eat one each day. So nobody who reads this can ever eat in my house.

> BTW, we do not eat corn on Pesach because my mother told me it was
> included in the ban. That minhag shtus (R' Yechiel miParis, IIRC) was
> made before I was born. But chadashim mikarov ba'u are not minhagim
> for me and mine.

Maize (corn) was not included in the original ban, as it is a new
world crop.

> If I can make the time, I'll continue raving on this subject by bringing
> the words of R' Ya'akov meEmden (who I suppose was really from Altoona
> having left Emden to avoid being the rav there.) It might be after Pesach
> before I can get to it.

R' Yaaqov Emden dismissed the Minhag of Qitniyos in his work, Mor Uqtziah
[OH 453], he says that his father [Hakham Tzvi] was very disturbed by the
Minhag and was always lamenting that he lacked the strength to abolish
the Minhag, otherwise he would.

FWIW, the Minhag resumed nevertheless.

There are some Aharonim that paskened that when eating Qitniyos you are
violating the Lav of Lo Sosur.

> Before signing off, I'll make sure some list members will put me in
> cherem by pointing out that on the first two mornings of Pesach I will
> fulfill my mother's minhag kavua of putting pieces of matzo in my
> coffee (made with coffee BEANs). To be more machmir, I will use the
> shmurah matzo that I make with my sons and grandsons on erev Pesach.
> At the hotel,I'll be meikil and make do with the macaroons.

Coffee is not Qitniyos according to everyone, as it grows on a tree and
is a seed of a cherry-like (in appearance) fruit. The term bean is a
misnomer, if not entirely inaccurate.

I was struck while studying S"A C"M 163 by the language "kofin bnai hair
zeh et zeh" to pay for certain communal needs. The use of the passive
voice seemed to almost say that whatever community organizing principle
is used is not dictated (e.g. dictator, bet din, 7 tuvei, democracy)
but that whatever it is , it needs to provide for these needs.

Thoughts?
KT
Joel Rich

Gut voch!

R' Danny Schoemann wrote:
> Sadly, many aren't aware of the actual halocho (OC 134:2) that one
> should see the writing, BOW and say V'sos Hatorah. (No mention of pointing
> in the SA, MB or Oruch HS.)

Yes, and what a very infeliticious thing it is to bow to the blank back, while proclaiming this to be the Toure that Moshe vechu'!

> Few are those that know to bow, for reasons unknown.

It's not the (Ashkenazi) minneg. Well, one of the reasons might be
that bowing is forbidden outside of those four times in the shumenesre,
mightn't it? So, a slight nod would be acceptable.

Where does this come from, actually? It's Pesach preperation time, so I
didn't have time to go into it very much, but from a casual glance at
the Bach on the Tur in 134 it seems that the Mechabber took his very
strong words ("mitzve to bow") literally from the Ramben who refers to
Masseches Sofrem. I couldn't find it there, though.

Anyone?

ELPhM

> On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 13:11:36 -0400 Jacob Farkas <jfarkas@compufar.com>
> writes:
>> It is pretty clear that the Minhag ha'Olam is to make Mezonos on Pizza
>> [If you doubt this for even a minute, go to any Kosher Pizza store
>> and observe]

R' Gershon Dubin wrote:
> This is not a minhag that has any standing in halacha. It's also simply
> not true to the extent you imply.

I'm sorry that I failed to mention that Minhag Ha'Olam is to make
a Mezonos on "one slice" of pizza. Anything more than one slice is
potential Qevias Seuda territory, and even if only one slice can be QS,
this seems not to be the case in practice.

Why is the opinion of Taz dismissed to the extent that such a Minhag is
considered not to have any standing in Halakhah?

 From my observation of people eating in pizza stores (and of asking
many people point blank whether they wash for one slice), I am very
confident to conclude that the Minhag HaOlam is to make a Mezonos on one
slice. I am also inclined not to dismiss this Minhag because of the Taz
I mentioned in my earlier post.

Jacob Farkas

On Sun, 09 Apr 2006 08:31:51 -0400 Jacob Farkas <jfarkas@compufar.com>
writes:
> From my observation of people eating in pizza stores (and of asking many
> people point blank whether they wash for one slice), I am very confident
> to conclude that the Minhag HaOlam is to make a Mezonos on one slice.

And I am confident in saying that if you're choshesh for a shita that
considers cheese pas haba'ah bekisnin, fine. Polling people in pizza
stores, however, does not a minhag make.

Ask around a sandwich store how many people wash on a tuna fish sandwich
on a mezonos roll. I am equally confident that you'll find a "minhag"
of people who don't. So what?

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

> And I am confident in saying that if you're choshesh for a shita that
> considers cheese pas haba'ah bekisnin, fine. Polling people in pizza
> stores, however, does not a minhag make.

> Ask around a sandwich store how many people wash on a tuna fish sandwich
> on a mezonos roll. I am equally confident that you'll find a "minhag"
> of people who don't. So what?

I polled (if you could call it that) in Battei Midrashim, I observed in
pizza stores. My poll is actually meaningless and is outside the scope
of my point, hence it was mentioned parenthetically, albeit interesting,
and I suggest that you may want to do the same if you are interested in
what the general public claims they do. (You can see what they actually
do by casual observation).

What is done l'ma'aseh is not to be dismissed, the exception being if what
is done l'ma'aseh is against Halakhah. Whether mezonos rolls are PHBK
is a different discussion altogether, it depends on how much Ta'am the
Mei Peiros affect the final product. Pizza (and the Mehaber's Pashtida)
is another discussion, it is not contingent on the dough's ingredients
at all, but on what is baked on it.

Minhag is defined as practice. This is my basis for considering the
practice of reciting a Mezonos on one slice of pizza, Minhag haOlam. The
fact that this practice is in accordance with Shitas Taz in PHBK should
enough to justify this practice, without reservation. It would also
absolve the Tzibbur of the attack that they are not Zahir in Netillas
Yadayim and Birkas Hamazon because of laziness. Yeish Lahem al mi Lismokh.

Jacob Farkas

********************


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