Avodah Mailing List

Volume 10 : Number 070

Wednesday, December 4 2002

• Re: Rambam Information Request
• parsha sheets
• Fw: "Ha dooda-im nasnu ray-ach"--ze Reuven she-hee-tzeel es Yosef
• Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:44:09 -0500
• Silk-Screened Sifrei Torah
• Re: women and neros chanukah
• Re: women and neros chanukah
• RE: Re: women and neros chanukah
• RE: Re: women and neros chanukah
• RE: Re: women and neros chanukah
• women and neros chanukah
• Re: women and neros chanukah
• Re: women and neros chanukah
• Re: women and neros chanukah
• Re: women and neros chanukah
• Re: Re: women and neros chanukah
• Re: women and neros chanukah
• Re: Re: women and neros chanukah
• women and chanukiyot
• Re: women and chanukiyot
• RE: women and chanukiyot
• Re: women and chanukiyot

Allen Gerstl wrote:
> 1. Somewhere in his Perush Ha-Mishnah (?) the Rambam states that he
> only disagreed with the Rif on ten (?) occassions. I would appreciate
> if someone could provide the citation.

See introduction, edition Kafih (Hebrew only version) p. 25, end of
column 1. Compare Igroth HaRambam, ed. Sheilath, p. 652. Your memory
is slightly faulty, since I think that the Rambam is counting places he
thinks the Rif's position is indefensible, rather than places he differed
with the Rif (there are many more of the latter).

David Riceman

I found the following on the OU website. Is there some "chiyuv" for shuls
who distribute these sheets to remind the kahal on a regular basis of
the proper usage from the standpoint of lfnei iver/msayea or does point
4 below mean that if in general the level of "sinning" is reduced, we
don't need to worry about those (minority) who wouldn't have "sinned"
without the sheets but now will?

KT
Joel Rich
 
Question:

You and others publish parsha sheets which are distributed in shul. You
are probably aware that people read these at various times during
davening. Is this proper?

Answer:

Reading divrei Torah (to which I will limit this answer) during davening
raises several issues:
1)Hefsek an interruption in the midst of a mitzva or text where it
is improper;
2) lack of concentration on the matter which one should be involved in;
3) creating a negative atmosphere or precedent which may be copied
improperly;
4) Derech Eretz.

Let's now analyze each issue.

1) Interruption - One may not speak even divrei Torah in the following
places:
    (a) Psukei D'zimra (SA, OC 51:4);
    (b) Shma and its brachot (Rama, OC 68:1); 
    (c) Shmoneh Esrei (OC 104).

However, according to most poskim, thinking or even reading is not
considered a formal interruption. This is based on the rule "Hirhur Lav
K'dibbur" (thinking is not like speaking) - see Brachot 20b; Rama OC 68:1;
Har Tzvi, OC 42. While it is proper to concentrate on tefila during tefila,
reading is not a formal interruption (see fascinating story about the Vilna
Gaon in Yabia Omer IV, OC. 8).

2,3) Lack of concentration, atmosphere - During Kriyat HaTorah (SA 146:2;
Biyur Halacha, ad loc.); Kaddish, Kedusha, Shmoneh Esrei... one should not
be thinking about other things. Regarding the repetition of Shmoneh Esrei,
Magen Avraham 124:8 brings two opinions as to whether it is permissible for
one who will be careful to answer AMEN properly, to learn. The Mishna Brura
124:17 prefers the strict opinion, out of fear that others will learn to
abuse this leniency. Igrot Moshe, OC IV 19 points out that there needs to be
at least nine people who are listening to every word in order to entertain
such a leniency for others. Between aliyot one can permit himself to learn,
while being careful to stop as the next aliya begins (see Mishna Brura
146:6). Before the beginning of Chazarat HaShatz, most poskim permit silent
learning.

4) As Derech Eretz Kodma L'Torah. it is improper to read during the dvar
Torah of the rabbi or a fellow congregant.In summary, while parsha sheets
are sometimes read at times when it is forbidden or questionable, they seem
to have replaced a lot of talking and less holy thoughts in many of our
shuls. Therefore, on the whole, they seem to have added more to the
spirituality of our Batei Knesset than they have detracted.

From: "nwitty@ix.netcom.com" <nwitty@ix.netcom.com>
> I seek a midrash that states as follows:
> "Ha dooda-im nasnu ray-ach"--ze Reuven she-hee-tzeel es Yosef
> "Ve-al be-sachaynu kol megadim"--ze ner chanukah

From: "SBA" <sba@iprimus.com.au>
> I'll be surprised if you find it in any of the 'conventional' Midroshim.
> The Satmar Rebbe z'l who was well versed in Midrash, when quoting it
> twice - in his sefer Divrei Yoel on Chanuka - brings it from the Chasam
> Sofer.

Someone has alerted me to the Droshos CS - vol 1, p 64 - where he brings
this Midrash - giving his source as 'shomati'.

A footnote there says that his talmid the Baal Likutei Chover ben Chaim
also mentions this Midrash and brings a similar pshat from the CS.
The LCBC adds "lo zochisi limtsoi es hamidrash hazeh ad atoh..."

And: The Yalkut Eliezer - 'erech Chanuka' writes that it is quoted in
"Mefaresh Zera Avrohom" [?] on Midrash Rabbo Parsha Vayeishev.

SBA

Regarding the yichus of Slonim -- Several White Russian/Litvish traditions
were initially influenced by the Baal Hatanya. Whether Slonim was among
these I cannot say.

Harav Arie Chark

The English language Yated has an article stating that  kisvei hakodesh
produced through silk-screening are invalid, according to ALL opinions. 
See http://www.shemayisrael.com/chareidi/MKZ63astam.htm 
However, also see http://www.kashrut.org/ which indicates that Rav
Yitzchak Abadi, formerly of Lakewood, apparently disagrees and has an
organization that is selling silk-screened kisvei hakodesh.

Just as the Yated fails to mention that a well-known Rav disagrees,
the Abadi website and its forums fail to provide any halachic rationale
for this radical innovation and neglect to mention that it is apparently
not well-accepted amongst Gedolei Yisroel. Forum readers are asked to
"wait" until the teshuva is published.

Meanwhile, the sifrei Torah are already on the market.

What ARE the halachic issues?

Micha and I were discussing privately this issue and I thought we could
take it to Avodah.

Regarding women waiting for husbands to come home from work rather
than lighting chanukah candles at the zeman (whenever that is), I wrote
on Areivim:
>Minhag/common sense trumps halachic minutiae.  My
>wife isn't willing to change family dynamics in order
>to light candles a lit earlier.

Micha responded:
>Do you mean that "nebich they trump" or "they ought to trump"?

I wrote back:
>I don't know.  I think this falls into the mimeticism/textualism debate.

Micha then wrote:
>What debate? Who holds that we follow a minhag which we can't explain
>as being within halachah?

Sure we do. As long as it isn't blatant and/or doesn't violate anything,
we frequently follow minhagim that aren't within halachah. There is no
real chiyuv for women to light as long as there is one light per house.
Everything else is a hidur so if the minhag is that women don't light
then what's the big deal? How is this worse than single men not wearing
a tallis?

Consider also the minhag not to eat or drink anything before lighting
Chanukah candles. The halacha is that snacks and drinks are OK but
the minhag is not to eat or drink anything so that's what we do.
Strict halachists should allow eating snacks before Chanukah licht
(I have a friend whose wife took a class with R"n Twersky and said
R"n told this friend's wife that R' Mayer Twersky told his wife that
she could eat a snack during class before lighting Chanukah candles)
but mimeticists would disagree (my former rav and an adam gadol, R'
Mordechai Marcus, told me that I should follow the minhag and not eat
snacks before lighting Chanukah candles).

But the tried and true way is to find post facto halachic rationales
for established minhagim. In our case, it isn't too hard.

The only reason to light immediately at the beginning of the night,
barring those who hold that candles should be going the entire time
until tichleh regel min ha-shuk, is "zerizin makdimin" which is not an
actual chiyuv. However, the minhag is to be very strict on lighting as
soon as possible.

You therefore have two minhagim in conflict - the man of the house
lighting and lighting as soon as possible, one stronger than the other
but neither actual obligations. Which overrides the other? Shalom bayis
(in the specific, obvious sense and in the general sense of a family
lighting together).

Gil Student

On Tue, Dec 03, 2002 at 04:34:06PM -0500, Gil Student wrote:
:>> I don't know.  I think this falls into the mimeticism/textualism debate.

:> What debate? Who holds that we follow a minhag which we can't explain
:> as being within halachah?

: Sure we do. As long as it isn't blatant and/or doesn't violate anything,
...

I wasn't clear. My "within" meant "doesn't violate anything". To me,
recommending something where halachah is silent, lifnim mishuras hadin,
isn't what I took your "Minhag/common sense trumps halachic minutiae."

I *thought* you were saying that hanhagah can overrule textual/formal
halachic requirements (if they're minutiae). Which is why I asked if
you meant "do in practice" or "are supposed to".

My understanding is that an accepted minhag ought be treated seriously.
One needs to really look for a formal justification. However, if it can't
be found to be halachic behavior, the minhag is deemed ta'us and repealed.

Now it's "simply" a question of how important is it that the lights be
lit earlier in comparison to the importance of preserving minhag.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                     Life is complex.
micha@aishdas.org                    Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org                   The Torah is complex.
Fax: (413) 403-9905                                    - R' Binyamin Hecht

From: Gil Student [mailto:gil@aishdas.org]
> When I was learning in R' Hershel Schachter's kollel and 
> commuting about 1 1/2 hours from Brooklyn, I asked him whether I should
have my 
> wife light for me before I got home.  He said yes, if she agrees...

I had a similar problem and Rav Schachter told me that I should have my
wife light. My wife, of course, has no problem with it as she lights
even when I'm home.

Frankly, I don't understand the sentiment among women not to light on
behalf of their husbands. It's a b'feirush gemara and halacha in S'A.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

From: Mishpachat Freedenberg [mailto:free@actcom.co.il]
>> Frankly, I don't understand the sentiment among women not to 
>> light on behalf of their husbands.  It's a b'feirush gemara 
>> and halacha in S'A.

> It's not so simple. It's better to light earlier, but it is permitted to
> light as long as there are still people on the streets who will see the
> nerot. Thus, even if tatty is coming home later than tzais hakochavim
> many families prefer to wait for him to light. 

> I guess you could compare this to lighting Shabbos candles. 

Big difference:
If you light Shabbos candles 18 minutes before shkia vs. 8 minutes it
makes no halachic difference. If you light Chanukah candles at tzais
vs. 1 hour afterwards, it makes a big difference--according to some
rishonim, you're not yotzai in the latter case.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

> If you light Shabbos candles 18 minutes before shkia vs. 8 
> minutes it makes no halachic difference.  If you light 
> Chanukah candles at tzais vs. 1 hour afterwards, it makes a 
> big difference--according to some rishonim, you're not 
> yotzai in the latter case.

Actually, it's the opposite. If you light Chanuka candles an hour after
tzais you are considered yotzai by most opinions at least b'dieved and
you are certainly allowed to light candles at that time in any case. If
you miss the time for lighting Shabbos candles and tzais comes, every
opinion and rav says that you can't light after this time and you've
missed out. 

---Rena 

i remember reading recently (i think in mikrae kodesh by r harari) that
rav moshe feinstein zt"l, when he first got married, tried to get the
rebbetzin to light. she refused.

i guess there were different minhagim even in e.u. and the mishna berura
reflects only one of them.

david brofsky

David Brosky wrote:
> i remember reading recently (i think in mikrae kodesh by r harari) that rav
> moshe feinstein zt"l, when he first got married, tried to get the rebbetzin
> to light. she refused.

When I was learning in R' Hershel Schachter's kollel and commuting about 1
1/2 hours from Brooklyn, I asked him whether I should have my wife light
for me before I got home. He said yes, if she agrees. He had asked his
wife to do so and she said that she would only light Chanukah candles
after he dies. He opted instead to live and light them himself when he
gets home (he does not allow yungeleit to leave seder to light Chanukah
candles). My wife had similar sentiments to Rebbetzin Schachter's.

Gil Student

David Brosky wrote:
> i remember reading recently (i think in mikrae kodesh by r harari) that rav
> moshe feinstein zt"l, when he first got married, tried to get the rebbetzin
> to light. she refused.

When I was learning in R' Hershel Schachter's kollel and commuting about 1
1/2 hours from Brooklyn, I asked him whether I should have my wife light
for me before I got home. He said yes, if she agrees. He had asked his
wife to do so and she said that she would only light Chanukah candles
after he dies. He opted instead to live and light them himself when he
gets home (he does not allow yungeleit to leave seder to light Chanukah
candles). My wife had similar sentiments to Rebbetzin Schachter's.

Gil Student

Briefly:

1) Yes, there were different minhogim in Europe.  The most wide-spread one
in _Eatern Europe_ is brought by the MB, but the Briske and others had the
wife light as well.  I mean Brisk, not RYBS, and Brisk can scarcely be
called MO according to any stretch of imagination.

2) The halokho is also murky.  The R'mo says we follow the Rambam, and in
the Rambam it is _explicit_ that you light candles for the women, all the
women, even the wife (who lights -- the balebos or each member of the
family -- is a separate matter).  The custom brought by the MB -- that
everyone lights except the wife or possibly daughters -- is correct
according to none of the opinions in the rishonim.  Ishto k'gufo does not
pater a woman from a mitzva: do we say that women don't take lulav because
their husband did??  But it is a good enough s'voro for neros hanukka, where
there is no hiyyuv for everone to light except according to the Rambam's
shitta.

3) I would have thought by now Areivim members know not to criticise
chasidim for their customs, nor misnagdim for theirs, nor S'faradim for
theirs, nor German Jews for theirs.  Save your criticism for cases where it
is clear people are departing from halokho, and then make sure that they are
not just following what their grandparents did in Europe.   A little
research is needed in most cases, and so if one is surprised by a custom,
better to ask "Does anyone know where this custom got started?"

Seth Mandel

In message <009501c29b16$c8983800$5f72580c@seth>, Seth Mandel 
>2) The halokho is also murky.  The R'mo says we follow the Rambam, and in
>the Rambam it is _explicit_ that you light candles for the women, all the
>women, even the wife (who lights -- the balebos or each member of the
>family -- is a separate matter).

As Robert comments every year, this is one of the rare situations where
the Ashkenazim follow the Rambam and the Sephardim follow Tosphos.

The Sephardim from his community are makpid that there be only one
menorah lit in the house - although various have run into the problem of
the sons/daughters and their arts and crafts classes and what *everybody
else does* and have weakened despite the objections to having more than
one menora lit (making it confusing as to numbers) as well as the bracha
l'vatala issue.

His personal minhag (although I don't know where it sources from and
whether there are any halachic issues in it) is that he makes the
bracha, and lights the first candle. However on the second night and
on, I (as the wife) then light the second candle. On the third day
he then lights the third candle, but if there were any children of an
age/maturity to handle candles, the minhag from his house is that they
would light in descending age order (ie on the third night, his father,
mother and oldest sibling would light a candle, on the fourth night,
his father, mother, oldest and second oldest sibling would light etc,
with a recycling once you reached the end of the line, ie the father
then takes the next candle).

I can't see a halachic problem with the first bit (husband and wife),
but did wonder whether having a katan/katana light a candle might not
be a problem (and whether the minhag ought to be restricted to those
of bar/bas mitzvah age). Must go and have a look at the appropriate
sources to see what the Kaf Hachaim, ROY etc recommends.

Regards
Chana Luntz

On 4 Dec 2002 at 9:34, Chana Luntz wrote:
> I can't see a halachic problem with the first bit (husband and wife),
> but did wonder whether having a katan/katana light a candle might not
> be a problem (and whether the minhag ought to be restricted to those
> of bar/bas mitzvah age).  

Why would that be a problem if everything beyond the first candle is 
hidur mitzva? He's making a bracha only on lighting the one candle 
for the house.

-- Carl

[As mentioned in the previous post, we're discussing whether a man can
be yotzei hadlaqas neir Chanukah through his wife's lighting. And if
he can, is that only bedi'eved/she'as hadechaq? The following 33 (!)
posts are from that discussion. -mi]

Forgive me if this link was already posted, but see:
http://www.koltorah.org/ravj/channukahlights.htm for a discussion of
this issue. Here's (some excerpts of) R' Jachter's article, *severely*
snipped:

==========================================================================
The Proper Time to Kindle Chanukah Lights
by Rabbi Howard Jachter
The Ideal Time for Lighting
...
There is a considerable range of opinions regarding the precise ideal time
for lighting. When I served as an assistant to Rav Yosef Dov Soloveitchik,
he lit very long candles at Shkiah so that the candles should last at
least a half an hour after Tzeit Hakochavim. I have heard that this was
Rav Soloveitchik's consistent practice throughout his life.
...
The Latest Time to Light
...
Delaying the Lighting

Many people are unable to light with their families at the ideal time
due to work and other obligations. Rav Yaakov Kaminetzsky (cited in Emet
Leyaakov p. 251 and 254) believes that theoretically the Halacha requires
the spouse who is home at the ideal time for lighting to light on behalf
of the entire family and not wait for the latecomer. Nevertheless,
Rav Yaakov rules that because of the great value of Shalom Bayit,
it is proper for the family to postpone lighting until the latecomer
arrives. Common practice appears to accord with this ruling. Rav Yaakov
cites the Gemara (Shabbat 23b) as precedent for this ruling. The Gemara
states that if a poor individual can afford to purchase either Chanukah
candles or Shabbat candles but not both, he should purchase Shabbat
candles. The Gemara explains that since Shabbat Candles promote Shalom
Bayit they enjoy priority over Chanukah lights. Rav Yaakov reasons that
since Shalom Bayit enjoys priority over Chanukah candles, one delay
kindling Chanukah lights due to Shalom Bayit considerations.

Yeshiva Students

Every year Rav Hershel Schachter hangs a notice in the Bait Midrash of the
Yeshiva University Kollel during Chanukah. The notice relates that when
the YU Kollel was established in the early 1960's, Rav Aharon Lichtenstein
(the original Rosh Kollel) asked Rav Yosef Dov Soloveitchik whether the
Kollel students should interrupt their studies to return home to kindle
Chanukah lights at the optimal time or remain in the Bait Midrash until
the conclusion of their scheduled study period. The Rav responded that
the students should continue their studies until the conclusion of the
usual study time, even though the ideal time to light Chanukah candles
will pass. The Rav cited as a precedent the Meiri to Shabbat 21b who
noted the practice of Yeshiva students of his area not to interrupt their
studies in order to kindle Chanukah lights at its ideal time. (The story
is cited in Rav Schachter's recently published Sefer, Peninei Harav).

Rav Moshe Feinstein (cited in Rabbi Aaron Felder, Ohalei Yeshurun p.8)
agrees with this ruling. He reasons that communal Torah study enjoys
priority over lighting Chanukah candles at its optimal time. However,
when I studied at Yeshivat Har Etzion, the Yeshiva interrupted its studies
in order to fulfill the Mitzva of Hadlakat Nerot Chanukah at its optimal
time. In addition, Rav J. David Bleich left the Yeshiva University Yadin
Yadin Kollel early on Chanukah afternoons, because he did not subscribe
to the rulings of Rav Soloveitchik and Rav Feinstein.

Defense of the Ruling of Rav Soloveitchik and Rav Feinstein
...
Conclusion

One should try to light Nerot Chanukah at the optimal time. However,
defining the precise time has been an elusive task. It appears that
common practice is simply to light when the men return from Maariv. Shalom
Bayit and male communal Torah study might permit one to light after the
optimal time.

=====================================================
KT and Chanukah Sameach
Aryeh

On 3 Dec 2002 at 17:07, Stein, Aryeh wrote:
> When
> I served as an assistant to Rav Yosef Dov Soloveitchik, he lit very
> long candles at Shkiah so that the candles should last at least a half
> an hour after Tzeit Hakochavim. I have heard that this was Rav
> Soloveitchik's consistent practice throughout his life. 

This is the minhag of most Yerushalmim (except that they use oil and
this year a lot of people are being mehader to use edible oil which
is apparently based on a Chazon Ish). Personally, I have stuck to my
Chutz La'Aretz minhag of lighting at (or as soon as possible after)
Tzeis although I am much better at getting home for it here than I
was in America (I once woke Adina at 2:00 A.M. so that I could light,
and several times I went out and bought Shabbos candles and lit on the
window sill of my office in New York).

> ...
> Yeshiva Students
> Every year Rav Hershel
> Schachter hangs a notice in the Bait Midrash of the Yeshiva University
> Kollel during Chanukah. The notice relates that when the YU Kollel was
> established in the early 1960's, Rav Aharon Lichtenstein (the original
> Rosh Kollel) asked Rav Yosef Dov Soloveitchik whether the Kollel
> students should interrupt their studies to return home to kindle
> Chanukah lights at the optimal time or remain in the Bait Midrash
> until the conclusion of their scheduled study period. The Rav
> responded that the students should continue their studies until the
> conclusion of the usual study time...

The irony of this is that - at least when I learned by Rav Aaron - we 
all went back to our rooms to light in the middle of second seder....

> Rav Moshe Feinstein (cited in Rabbi
> Aaron Felder, Ohalei Yeshurun p.8) agrees with this ruling. He reasons
> that communal Torah study enjoys priority over lighting Chanukah
> candles at its optimal time. However, when I studied at Yeshivat Har
> Etzion, the Yeshiva interrupted its studies in order to fulfill the
> Mitzva of Hadlakat Nerot Chanukah at its optimal time. 

And I think he was there after I was (5740)....

-- Carl

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

From: "Mishpachat Freedenberg" <free@actcom.co.il>
> Okay, now. Please explain something to me. Even if there is nothing
> wrong with women lighting Chanukah licht, why is it such a big deal?
> We're all required to say motzi before we eat bread, and no one gets
> upset that the father of the house says motzi for everyone on Shabbos. I

Maybe in your house.  In my house, my wife makes motzi for everyone on
Shabbos.  Why?  Because my Hebrew is better - so I make kiddush, which 
is longer, and she makes motzi.  It's any baal habayit who can make it,
and her name is on the lease as much as mine.

> suppose that we could all say our own motzi also, but why would we make
> a big deal out of it? Could anyone explain to me why a wife would think
> that it's such a big deal to light Chanukah candles instead of being
> yotzei on her husband's bracha? 

Because she likes it (is it a sin to enjoy a mitzva act)?

Because she was doing so before she was married, so now she should
stop doing so, when it's perfectly permissible according to most 
halachic sources, and preferable according to some?

> One of the feminist's complaints is that men get "better" mitzvot
> because they get to do their mitzvot in shul in front of the whole
> kehilla and they hold that candle lighting on Shabbos isn't such an
> important mitzva because we don't do it in shul and no huge audience is
> standing there watching and so forth, so why is lighting Chanukah licht
> a bigger deal than lighting Shabbos candles? When someone lights
> Chanukah licht and says the brachas and the family says "amen" they get
> schar for the mitzva as well as the bracha reciter, so you can't tell me
> that it is a bigger mitzva to say the bracha than to say the amen. I
> really do think that a part of the whole issue is "doing what their
> brothers/fathers/husbands do". This isn't even an issue of such a public
> mitzvah since very few people see you lighting the licht except for your
> family, and the licht burn by themselves streetwards and proclaim the
> miracle. It doesn't really take much public involvement from the "licht
> lighter". 

In my wife's case, her parents didn't light a menorah.  She started doing
so on her own, while living in her parents' house.  So she should stop?

> If you say that the issue is to have more menorahs pirsuming the nes, so
> you could have the abba of the household light 15 menoras if that's the
> only issue, so it doesn't make sense from that angle either. 

Ner Ish Ubeito.  You've got to have people associated with each menorah,
if you're doing more than one.  If you only have it associated with the
men, when women are perfectly permitted to do so, then it sends the message
that you think the women of your household are less of a person than the
halacha itself does.

Why would anyone want to do that?

   - jon baker    jjbaker@panix.com     <http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker> -

On 3 Dec 2002 at 19:05, Jonathan Baker wrote:
> Maybe in your house.  In my house, my wife makes motzi for everyone on
> Shabbos.  Why?  Because my Hebrew is better - so I make kiddush, which
> is longer, and she makes motzi.  It's any baal habayit who can make
> it, and her name is on the lease as much as mine.

How can she be motzi you with ha'Motzi (assuming that she is making 
the bracha for you as well as for herself)? 

(Note - I am not disagreeing with what you wrote about the Chanuka 
candles. I'm asking about ha'Motzi specifically because it's Birchos 
Ha'Neheneen and the whole idea of the head of the household being 
motzi those at his table with Kiddush and Motzi is a special heter).

-- Carl

>> Maybe in your house.  In my house, my wife makes motzi for everyone on 
>> Shabbos.  Why?  Because my Hebrew is better - so I make kiddush, which 
>> is longer, and she makes motzi.  It's any baal habayit who can make 
>> it, and her name is on the lease as much as mine.

> How can she be motzi you with ha'Motzi (assuming that she is making 
> the bracha for you as well as for herself)? 

I also asked the same question myself. How can she make motzi for her
husband? And what on earth does her name being on the lease have to do
with anything? Besides, a woman who owns a house is called a ba'alat
habayit, not a ba'al habayit. A ba'al habayit is always male.

Women are only able to motzei other women or children under bar mitzva
age with kiddush or motzi, the way I learned it.

---Rena 

R'n F:
> RCS:
>> JJB:

>>> is longer, and she makes motzi.  It's any baal habayit who 
>>> can make it, and her name is on the lease as much as mine.

>> How can she be motzi you with ha'Motzi (assuming that she is making 
>> the bracha for you as well as for herself)? 

> I also asked the same question myself. How can she make motzi for her
> husband? And what on earth does her name being on the lease have to do
> with anything? Besides, a woman who owns a house is called a ba'alat
> habayit, not a ba'al habayit. A ba'al habayit is always male. 

The S"A only has the abbrev. BAH"B. It doesn't spell out baal or baalat.
In which case I feel free to use either one.

And if being on the lease, and running the household, don't make her
a baalat habayit (and the woman runs the family in pretty much every
Jewish family I know), then I don't know what the term means unless it
means something other than what it says.

Look, I've mentioned this to some enlightened PC MO (to use some posters'
terminology) rabbis, and even (I think) one or two who aren't, who
haven't complained.

*********************


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