Avodah Mailing List

Volume 10 : Number 017

Tuesday, October 1 2002

• Garbage Removal on Simchas Torah
• Re: Sundry tefillah items
• Rav YE Henkin on pants for women
• Re: Why teach the other opinions
• Re: Yaknehoz candles and Avukeh
• Re: Birchat kohanim/hoshanot/ naanuim
• Re: Re: Chol HaMoed Sukkos Eating bread in an airplane
• RE: Avodah V10 #16
• Re: Garbage Removal on Simchas Torah
• S/N, RYBS, Not!
• Re: S/N, RYBS, Not!
• Re: S/N, RYBS, Not!
• Re: S/N, RYBS, Not!
• Re: N, S and RYBS
• Re: travelling on Sukkot
• Re: travelling on Sukkot
• Sefer Torah of an Epikorus
• Re: Sukkah: Muktzah?
• RE: Sukkah: Muktzah?
• Re: Sukkah: Muktzah?
• RE: Why teach the other opinions
• Re: RYBS and Mussar
• Re: RYBS and Mussar
• Re: kiddush-havdala candle
• Re: Bowing during the Avodas Yom Kippur
• RE: RYBS and Mussar
• Re: RYBS and Mussar
• Re: singing after reading of ends of each of first days of creation, etc.
• Re: Nananuim

> I apologize for being unclear. I was thinking of candy wrappers and potato
> chip bags that contained food bein hashmashos and are not muktzah.

Unless you designated a use for them before Shabbos, yes they are muktzeh
once the food inside them is finished.

> And even if they were, if you picked them up be-heter you can carry them
> until you find an appropriate place to put them down.

Right. If you finish the potato chips and the bag is in your hand you can
take it to the garbage can in your house (I presume you are talking about
eating in the house - outside is a different problem).

But once it is in the garbage can unless its gref shel rei you can not
move it.

Daniel

IIRC, either RYGB or RMB wrote a while ago, when trying to see the verbiage of 
sim shalom through the lens of Sefirot:
> When R' Saadia Gaon or the Rambam used Aritotilian concepts to explain
> ideas in the Torah, they weren't really grafting new ideas on. (Okay,
> many -- including the Gra and RSRH thought the Rambam was, but let's
> take the other shitah for the moment.)
>
> They were using a model that explains features that already there,
> given a new way of looking at old material.
>
> Even if the 10 sefiros didn't date back to a sefer written by Avraham
> Avinu (a point I don't want to go on record as conceding), they do --
> in the opinion of many, many, ba'alei mesorah -- well describe and give
> a unifying order to things that do.
>
> That's what I was saying about David haMelech's ru'ach haqodesh.
>
> Whether or not he was thinking in terms of 10 sefiros, he was thinking
> about something that later generations modeled using those sefiros. The
> correspondance should still be there, intentionally or because it's
> inherent in the topic under discussion.

And I am wondering whether the model you put forward, meaning applying 10 
Sefirot to sim shalom, is appropriate. I find many cases where the 10 Sefirot 
are a very good model; the question is whether that model explains the 
particular poetic qavvanot of the me'haber of sim shalom.

BTW, are there wildly divergent nus'haot of that brakhah, or is it safe to 
assume that it is mostly the nusa'h of anshei knesset hagedolah? I say 
mostly, because there are minor differences between Ashkenaz, Sfard and 'Edot 
haMizra'h, and I am not considering now whether all the alternative nus'haot 
are ancient (left as an exercise to the reader, or the poster who wants a 
resurection of elu vaelu ;-)).

Arie Folger
-- 
It is absurd to seek to give an account of the matter to a man 
who cannot himself give an account of anything; for insofar as
he is already like this, such a man is no better than a vegetable.
           -- Book IV of Aristotle's Metaphysics

The lenient ruling of Rav YE Henkin Zatsa"l regarding  pants for women
is in Shu"t Bnei Banim vol. 2, maamar 1, no. 38.

--
Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer
Ethel and David Resnick Professor
   of Active Oxygen Chemistry
Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University
Ramat Gan 52900, ISRAEL
E-mail: FrimeA@mail.biu.ac.il
Tel: 972-3-5318610; Fax: 972-3-5351250
Tel Home: 972-8-9473819/9470834

On Mon, Sep 23, 2002 at 09:59:59PM -0400, kennethgmiller@juno.com wrote:
: My understanding is this: If there would be a community that was otherwise
: Shomer Mitzvos, and accepted certain C decisions, and over a period
: of time was successful at integrating them into their Shomer Mitzvos
: lifestyle, then it would be very hard to pin them down, and explain how -
: or whether - they are beyond the pale. The comparison to Mayim Acharonim
: and others is very hard to shake. We'd be in quite a pickle if such a
: community would actually exist.

: But does such a community exist? Perhaps this is what Rav Aryeh Kaplan
: meant when he wrote (Handbook of Jewish Thought, 12:6-7) "The unique
: relationship between G-d and Israel guarantees that we will always be
: able to ascertain His will... This relationship also guarantees that
: collectively Israel will always obey G-d's will in the long run..." ...

"She'eiris Yisra'el lo ya'asu avla."

IIUC, you're saying that after significant time, we couldn't determine
which kehillos are within the 4 amos of halachah and which not, but
fortunately HQBH (via history) answers the question for us.

I am asserting that there is halachic process, that results obtained by
means other than that process is recognizable. If not in some absolute
way, it's still a matter about which a poseiq can rule upon for his
community.

I would also distinguish between a qehillah that has an anomolous pesaq
with one that has an anomolous means of reaching pesaq. One is localized
in effect, the other will progressively diverge.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 "The most prevalent illness of our generation is
micha@aishdas.org            excessive anxiety....  Emunah decreases anxiety:
http://www.aishdas.org       'The Almighty is my source of salvation;  I will
Fax: (413) 403-9905          trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya

On Tue, Sep 24, 2002 at 08:14:26PM +1000, SBA wrote:
: Someone else told me that our rov brought a rayeh from a halocho (or
: maybe he said Mishna) about the permissibility of burning a wick in the
: middle to create 2 of them.

The question we had was bedvaka by candles.

The heat of the flame melts the wax which in turn fuels the candle.
But if it melts to fast, it gets ahead of the flame, producing fuel that
just drips away rather than getting drawn up the wick.

Not sure why adding or removing fuel to make the eventual kibui leater
or earlier would be a problem on YT. But it's not parallel to your case.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 "The most prevalent illness of our generation is
micha@aishdas.org            excessive anxiety....  Emunah decreases anxiety:
http://www.aishdas.org       'The Almighty is my source of salvation;  I will
Fax: (413) 403-9905          trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya

On Fri, Sep 27, 2002 at 01:17:46PM -0400, RabbiRichWolpoe@aol.com wrote:
: 2) his shul still does hoshanos after Halle due to the logistical issue
: that there is really no place to conventiently store the the arba minnim
: from Hallel to Mussaf, so the most feasbile way is to do it all at once.
: AIUI it's more of a tircha issue of going in and out rather than say a
: time issue.

Again, I believe it's neither, but a kavod haTorah issue. We do not take
sifrei Torah out of the aron more often than necessary.

It's also not limited to nusachei Sepharad and "Sfard". It's also minhag
haGra, which is why RCS noted it's the norm in Israel. And rapidly
becoming the norm on this side of the puddle as well.

As for time or convenience, when I am in a shul which does have hoshanos
at the end, I hold my esrog and lulav from hallel until hoshanos. As per
the Rambam et al, that one ought be holding the 4 minim as much of the
day as possible. So much for time OR logistic issues.

:> Why does the shatz only do 2 naanuim at hodu and the kahal does 4?

: AISI, the Shatz should do just one, i.e.  the first one...

I'll add my testimony to the list that this too is subject to divergent
minhagim.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 "The most prevalent illness of our generation is
micha@aishdas.org            excessive anxiety....  Emunah decreases anxiety:
http://www.aishdas.org       'The Almighty is my source of salvation;  I will
Fax: (413) 403-9905          trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya

> See above. Note that Rav Moshe did say assur. He did so by saying
> that there is no tzorech in a tiyul (I don't have the IM in front of
> me right now, so this is from memory). I'm just speculating as to
> why.

Chol HaMoed does have an element of Yom Tov to it. As such, any action on
chol haMoed has to either be for tzarich hamoed or have a heter allowing it.

I've heard shiurim here where the laws of Muktza have been applied to chol
HaMoed.

Akiva

Daniel M Wells <wells@mail.biu.ac.il> wrote:
>Most people put garbage into plastic sacks that a)can be tied up in some
>form of halachically legal manner thus reducing the smell and b) the
>garbage can is or can be placed in a room that is not often frequented
>such as the washing machine room.

Maybe I am missing something, but who said geref shel rei had to smell? My
understanding of the concept was that if it was disgusting for you to have
that object in the room you can remove it.=20
Once you are allowed to remove it, why do you have to put it in a washing
room-put it outside in a garabge can.

Pure garbage might be muktzeh. But it was my understanding that what
an American in the 21th century CE calls "garbage" contains PLENTY of
edible food, which is most of the worth of the contents of the garbage
bag, and hence not really muktzeh.

Also, unless you've got a large home with an odor barrier-room, any
significant amount of garbage that a Yom-Tov produces is seriously
space-filling and odor-creating: a graf shel reii.

Raffy

WADR to our moderator, I cannot see myself participating in a discussion 
concerning mussar that is based on the writings of an arch anti-Mussarist 
like RYBS. Just because the Briskers, here and in EY, have managed to bury 
Mussar, it does not mean we should dance on the grave! Defining mussar on 
the basis of the writings of a Brisker is like trying to define Judaism on 
the basis of the writings of Thomas Aquinas (or, if that offends you overly 
much, Isaac Mayer Wise)!

Kol Tuv,
YGB

ygb@aishdas.org      http://www.aishdas.org/rygb

> the basis of the writings of a Brisker is like trying to define Judaism on
> the basis of the writings of Thomas Aquinas

That would be interesting... :-)

On Tue, Oct 01, 2002 at 01:25:35PM -0400, RYGB Bechhofer wrote:
: WADR to our moderator, I cannot see myself participating in a discussion 
: concerning mussar that is based on the writings of an arch anti-Mussarist 
: like RYBS...

Pity, because I think there's what to be said on this cross-fertilization
of ideas. But yes, your point is why I was clear that this idea is mine,
more a product of my crossing two lines, than either line of their own.

RYBS isn't as staunchly anti-mussar as the rest of Brisk. (Nor was
he as Brisk as the rest of his family.) After all, one can't have his
existentialist tendencies without producing a hashkafah that ties halachah
and in fact kol haTorah kulah to how the self evolves over time.

It was RYBS's willingness and ability to do an existential study of the
halachic man that made him something other than the pure embodiment
of one.

Take the case in point: he invites a self-analysis by presenting two
archetypes that each person tries to pursue. The Lonely Man of Faith is
a Jewish ideal phrased in terminology of self-description!

:                                                        Defining mussar on 
: the basis of the writings of a Brisker is like trying to define Judaism on 
: the basis of the writings of Thomas Aquinas (or, if that offends you overly 
: much, Isaac Mayer Wise)!

I would therefore argue that this particular writing is not particularly
Brisker, despite the author's last name. But even if it were... let's
strip out the origin of my idea and present it naked of RYBS's
terminology.

My suggestion is that one need to pursue both S's and N's derakhim.
Not to pursue a synthesis, but because man sees himself and needs to
see himself as both the pinacle of creation (and carrying of the duty
that implies) and as a poor being needful of a Greater Power. Both
opposites ought persist.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 "The most prevalent illness of our generation is
micha@aishdas.org            excessive anxiety....  Emunah decreases anxiety:
http://www.aishdas.org       'The Almighty is my source of salvation;  I will
Fax: (413) 403-9905          trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya

On Tue, Oct 01, 2002 at 01:25:35PM -0400, Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer wrote:
:                                                    ... Defining mussar on 
: the basis of the writings of a Brisker is like trying to define Judaism on 
: the basis of the writings of Thomas Aquinas (or, if that offends you overly 
: much, Isaac Mayer Wise)!

Or on the basis of an outright pagan, like Aristotle?

-mi

>                                      .... That's my proposed chiddush,
> taking RYBS's notion of the dialectic and applying it to a world where
> the ideal is the Ba'al Mussar, not the Brisker Ish haHalachah. It ought
> not be given RYBS's weight.

Take a look at RYBS's comment in Halachic Mind in which he quotes RCS as
rejecting RYS because it was unnecessary castor oil. RYBS further wrote
in the same comment that Mussar matured in Yeshivas Knesset Yisrael
under R Yerucham and in Slabodka. I believe that the reference was to
the Alter, but I am not sure.

Steve Brizel
Zeliglaw@aol.com

> There's no mitzva

What about ythe concept of simcha shel mitzva? A person should perform
mitzvos out of enthusiasm, as opposed to the mode of blindly performing
acts of a daily rote . Perhaps, a vacation enables one to do so in the
sense of a hechsher mitzva of living a life bsimcha. While this might
not have been operative in the days of Chazal or even as recently as
WW2 for the vast majority of Jews, it is well known that many Gdolim
did vacation at the spasa in Marienbad and similar areas in the US so
that they could learn and recharge their batteries.

Steve Brizel
Zeliglaw@aol.com

On Tue, Oct 01, 2002 at 02:32:09PM -0400, Zeliglaw@aol.com wrote:
:                   .... Perhaps, a vacation enables one to do so in the
: sense of a hechsher mitzva of living a life bsimcha...

See RSRH's travelogue in the last (?) volume of Collected Writings.

-mi

Earlier this year there was a story about a school in Israel that burned a
Xian Bible.  I saw that R' Ahron Soloveichik was medayek in his Parach Mateh
Aharon on Hilchos Yesodei HaTorah 6:8 from the Rambam's addition that we
burn the Sefer Torah of an epikorus Yisrael "shelo lehaniach shem
la'apikorsim velo lema'aseihem".  We only burn it if doing so will diminish
epikorsus in the world.  But if burning it will be counter-productive and
will give strength to those forces then we should not burn it.

Gil Student

I wrote:
>Wouldn't it qualify as "noyei sukkah" that are muktzah (i.e. can't be taken
>down) throughout Sukkos?

Chaim wrote:
>Why would the velcro straps be considered noyei sukkah? If
>anything they are the defonos (walls).

I hear the sevara that they are the actual walls. If so, they cannot
be taken down as per SA OC 438:1. However, I believe the Taz there says
that this only applies to the minimum of 2+ walls required the sukkah.
I don't think this Taz is accepted halachah lema'aseh, so Chaim is right,
but just to be on the safe side I said that the velcro walls are also/at
least noyei sukkah which is another reason they cannot be taken down.

No, muktzah here does not mean that they are unmovable on Chol HaMoed
like muktzah is on Shabbos. However, one may not take them down from
the sukkah.

Gil Student

Gil wrote:
1)
>I hear the sevara that they are the actual walls.  If so, they
>cannot be taken down as per SA OC 438:1.=20

I haven't looked into this at all so my question might be based on pure am
haratzus but what do you do with those portable sukkas. How do you take them
down?

2)
>but just to be on the safe side I said that the velcro walls are
>also/at least noyei
>sukkah which is another reason they cannot be taken down.

I just realized that we might be talking about 2 different types
of straps. I thought the original poster was referring to a set of
velcro straps which go around the poles on all 3 sides. Using lavud,
these straps in effect become the walls. I assume Gil is referring to
something else. Can the original poster explain what he meant.

Chaim Markowitz wrote:
>I haven't looked into this at all so my question might be based on pure am
>haratzus but what do you do with those portable sukkas. How do you
>take them down?

You have to make a tenai when you put them up.

Gil Student

I wrote <<< So too for egalitarian minyanim. If they don't have anyone
supporting them, then forgetaboutit. But if they do have some support,
no matter how flimsy, then how is it different than Mayim Acharonim? >>>

R' Akiva Atwood writes <<< The "support" would have to come from somewhere
higher than the local congregational rabbi, wouldn't it? >>>

I wrote <<< no matter how flimsy >>> specifically to underscore my
suspicion that the support would NOT <<< have to come from somewhere
higher than the local congregational rabbi >>>. And the reason I feel
that way is because I (me, personally, I) don't know where to draw the
line. How far higher than the local level would we require? A local rosh
yeshiva? A regional rosh yeshiva? The posek hador?

If I understand correctly, the topic we are discussing is "By what process
can a community abandon an established halacha, and still be considered
within the pale."

Further, we are trying to answer that question *without* falling into
either of these two traps:

(a) We want something more objective than "We'll rely on him if he's
big enough, but not if he's not big enough".
(b) We also can't allow a situation where someone might say, "He mattired
that issur; it proves he's krum." Again, we want something more objective.

We have a lot of history buffs here. Can someone take an example from
the past (it doesn't have to be Mayim Acharonim; there are many others)
and give a detailed explanation of the processes by which a community
dropped it?

Akiva Miller

In a message dated 10/1/02 9:17:09 AM, Micha Berger writes:
<< I thought of another way of framing the split in derekh between Novorodok
(N) and Slabodka (S), based on RYBS's Lonely Man of Faith. ...>>

"I like this formulation, except I find it difficult to think of RYBS
and "Mussar" in the same breath. Maybe I'm just thinking of the RYBS of
"Ish HaHalacha." Not that RYBS wasn't comfortable with dialectic. He
honored the the Brisker tradition by emphasizing that Talmud learning
is often an exercise in dialectical phenomenology (an approach that
doesn't work well within any of the fundamentalist frameworks erected
in the post-Brisker era).

Maybe that's where RYBS stood on Mussar in general: Mussar is unnecessary
because the lessons of Mussar are inherent in Talmud itself, and can be
gleaned and applied through a strictly analytical approach to the Law."

David Finch

On Tue, Oct 01, 2002 at 03:15:54PM -0400, DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:
: Maybe that's where RYBS stood on Mussar in general: Mussar is unnecessary
: because the lessons of Mussar are inherent in Talmud itself, and can be
: gleaned and applied through a strictly analytical approach to the Law."

That is Brisk in general. In fact, I've had rabbeim who were students
of RYBS question whether there is a Jewish ethos beyond the rules of
halachah. The fact that the question can be asked by contemporary O Jews
at all brings us to R' Eliezer Berkovits territory.

I have no idea what someone on that derekh does with obligations like
"qedoshim tihyu" -- "qadeish as atzmekha bemah shemutar lakh". Or
the issur of neveilus birshus haTorah. Both presume a definition of
right and wrong that underly and at times go beyond the letter of
halachah.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 "The most prevalent illness of our generation is
micha@aishdas.org            excessive anxiety....  Emunah decreases anxiety:
http://www.aishdas.org       'The Almighty is my source of salvation;  I will
Fax: (413) 403-9905          trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya

R' Gil Student wrote <<< On Areivim there was a discussion over what to do
on Yom Tov motza'ei Shabbos for an avukah for kiddush/havdalah. I remind
the velt that using an avukah for havdalah is "only" a mitzvah min
hamuvchar and not an obligation (SA OC 288:2). I would not start inventing
new minhagim in order to be yotzei the mitzvah min hamuvchar. >>>

We're not <<< inventing new minhagim >>>. Those of us without a mimetic
tradition are trying to figure out how to be mekayem the *existing*
minhag that we follow all year round.

Another way to phrase it: So it's not meakev, and it's "only" a mitzvah
min hamuvchar. So what? A more critical point is: Does it apply on Yom
Tov or not?

Akiva Miller

Arie Folger wrote:
> I also saw something strange: the ba'al mussaf, a Vizhnitzer 'hoosid, did not
> crouch when doing his hishta'havayah, but rather layed down flat, a more
> literal form of pishut yadayim veraglayim. ...

R' Hershel Schachter does this also.

Gil Student

From: Micha Berger [mailto:micha@aishdas.org]
> On Tue, Oct 01, 2002 at 03:15:54PM -0400, DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:
> : Maybe that's where RYBS stood on Mussar in general: Mussar is unnecessary
> : because the lessons of Mussar are inherent in Talmud itself, and can be
> : gleaned and applied through a strictly analytical approach to the Law."
<snip>
> I have no idea what someone on that derekh does with obligations like
> "qedoshim tihyu" -- "qadeish as atzmekha bemah shemutar lakh". Or
> the issur of neveilus birshus haTorah. Both presume a definition of
> right and wrong that underly and at times go beyond the letter of
> halachah.

 From RALichtenstein's shiur on the Ramban's understanding of qedoshim
tihyu & v'asisa hayashar v'hatov, I expect that RYBS would say that
the mitzvos are merely examples of proper behavior (after all, Hashem
could list every single action a person should take, so He just gave
613 examples) and that one uses the mitzvos to extrapolate to other
situations.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

> That is Brisk in general. In fact, I've had rabbeim who were students
> of RYBS question whether there is a Jewish ethos beyond the rules of
> halachah. The fact that the question can be asked by contemporary O Jews
> at all brings us to R' Eliezer Berkovits territory.

We've touched on this before -- in discussions about western values vs
Torah values (which usually revolve around questions of chilul HaShem).

Akiva

In Avodah V10 #16, Mordechai wrote:
> I have noticed a custom in some congregations to stop and sing briefly
> after 'vayehi erev vayehi voker yom echod', yom sheini, shelishi, etc.,
> on Simchas Torah....1) How widespread is this practice ? I assume it
> is not universal - doesn't sound like something that would be done in
> kehillos like KAJ, e.g.

Heck, it's not even done in Elizabeth, NJ :-).

> Also - related question - why does the tzibbur (in such places) recite
> 'vayehi erev vayehi voker yom echod', etc., before the baal kriah,
> rather than just listening to him lein it, as with the rest of the
> leining (the same question could be asked of same / similar practice
> during kriah on a taanis tzibbur, e.g. 13 middos horachamim, as well)?

The same Q could be asked about a ta'anis tzibbur, but an answer for
it (see MA 566:2) probably doesn't apply to the practice you note.
I see it in two different ways: (a) as yet another manifestation
of our great simchah for and with the Torah (if you can have rikud,
k'tanim reading from the Torah and/or being part of a mass aliya, and/or
multiple chasanim for one kallah, why not this, too? :-)); and (b) as the
community's final & parting statement about all that has transpired over
the past month and how it hopes to carry the k'dushah forth into the year
(compare with the thought of each day between RhS and YhK representing
that day of the week for the year to come).

All the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ

In Avodah V10 #16, JSpero responded:
> See Rama 651:8.

Excellent point (and one I forgot about in my public response).

Somehow, though, I find the rationale given ad loc. by one of the nos'ai
kailim (that "yomar na Yisrael" speaks to the tzibbur and the next two
phrases don't) rather unsatisfactory -- the triumvirate of "Yisrael/Bais
Aharon/Yir'ai H'" appears a few times in T'hilim and appears to represent
the community as a whole, so why create a split between 'em in the one
instance of na'anuim? Perhaps someone can help me back onto the PC path
here :-).

All the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ

*********************


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