Avodah Mailing List

Volume 06 : Number 056

Monday, December 4 2000

• Re: Hasakamot
• Re: Hasakamot
• Re: Yitzchak's response to Esav
• Re: Yitzchak's response to Eisav
• Re: Yitzchak's response to Esav

I wrote:
: And chazal did not do this?  There weren't tannaim who forbade sefarim 
: chitzonim and chochmas yevanis?

Micha Berger wrote:
: It's unclear if this refers to secular knowledge or knowledge about
: heretical philosophies in particular. Chochmas Yevanis can't mean greek
: wisdom in general, as that is lauded in "yaft E-lokim liYefes".

Gerald Blidstein discusses this in his article in "Judaism's Encounter With 
Other Cultures".  He seems to say that the derasha "Yaft E-lokim..." is a da'as 
yachid.

Gil Student

On Fri, Dec 01, 2000 at 10:38:04AM -0500, Gil.Student@citicorp.com wrote:
: Gerald Blidstein discusses this in his article in "Judaism's Encounter With 
: Other Cultures".  He seems to say that the derasha "Yaft E-lokim..." is a
: da'as yachid.

AFAIK, we hold lihalachah like the gemara in Megillah that Greek is
second-best to the original for leining megillah based on this pasuk. I
had thought that it was a derivative idea: that HKBH blesses Greek wisdom,
of which the language is one example. This would imply that the yofi is
in the language in particular.

Also, the Rihal uses this pasuk in the first cheilek of the Kuzari to
describe philosophy. Although he considers philosophy second best to
having a tradition, it is still Yefet's yofi that allows the Greeks to
try to reason things out.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger                 When you come to a place of darkness,
micha@aishdas.org            you do not chase out the darkness with a broom.
http://www.aishdas.org       You light a candle.
(973) 916-0287                  - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l

In a message dated 12/1/00 12:01:59pm EST, C1A1Brown@aol.com writes:
>> it was when Esov argued, and said bless me too he had to say that
>> the Bracha was not to a stranger but to your brother as a Yoreish...

>  L'mai nafka minah if it would have been a stranger? Are you suggesting
>  that this works like R' Yochanan ben Broka's shita (B"B 130) that
>  you can be ma'avir nachala to ben bein habanim but not to an outsider?
>  Doesn't it sound like the bracha depended on having the status of bechor,
>  and even RYb"B agrees that you cannot be ma'avir the chelek becorah?

On the contrary When Yitzchok said "Mi Eifoh" (which suggests a total 
stranger) and he went on to say "Gam Boruch Yihiyeh" Esov thought that the 
Bracha was "not" Bgeder Yoreish (also see Rashi 25:11), hence he figured that 
he could ask for another Bracha, at this point YItzchok told him, it was not 
a stranger the blessing I gave was one I meant to give you as my (oldest) son.

Gut Shabbos v'Kol Tuv, 
Yitzchok Zirkind

I have commented before on how I would interpret this incident.  I
won't repeat myself now, which I know will be appreciated 
greatly by Rabbi B. and others.  For the interpretation of the Dor Revi'i,
see his divrei torah on the Dor Revi'i website, d'h va-yomer ha-kol
kol ya'akov . . .

http://www.math.psu.edu/glasner/Dor4/Parsha/toldot.html


Also see the next d'h va-yeherad Yitzhak haradah g'dolah  . . .

http://www.math.psu.edu/glasner/Dor4/Parsha/toldot.html

David Glasner
dglasner@ftc.gov

> Esov thought that the Bracha was "not" Bgeder Yoreish (also see
> Rashi 25:11), hence he figured that he could ask for another Bracha,
> at this point YItzchok told him, it was not a stranger the blessing I
> gave was one I meant to give you as my (oldest) son.

The Chasam Sofer brings down the Ramban that even kodem mattan Torah
the bechor had a status of leader of the family and took all, v'nitna
Torah v'nischadsha halacha that a bechor is only noteil pi shnayim.
Eisav argued that even if Ya'akov has the din of bechor, he should
still be noteil a beracha as a pashut. Yitzchak responded that 'gvir
samtiv...', that I am dan you like a B"N and Ya'akov gets all (like the
din in B"K that we come at a B"N from both tzaddim, dinei yisrael and
B"N and are dan him by whichever he loses).

-CB

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