Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 448

Monday, March 20 2000

• ve-laharog
• Maror
• Re: ve-laharog
• Mishpat Ivri, and the Best Place to Spend Purim
• Takkanos Redux
• Re: Jewish Fashion
• How can we......
• Re: How can we......
• Re: How can we......
• Quick Lesson By Example From Rabbi Kletzkin
• Re: Avodah V4 #447
• Re: Avodah V4 #447
• Re: Mishpat Ivri, and the Best Place to Spend Purim
• Re: New Wedding Takonos in Israel
• RE: Mishpat Ivri, and the Best Place to Spend Purim
• Re: Mishpat Ivri

R'H Ainspan requested data on the repetition of le-hashmid ve-laharog/laharog as 
well as lifneihem/bifneihem, stating that, "There's no k'ri/k'siv there, just v'laharog and 
lifneihem.

You are corrrect that there is no ketiv/kerei and that there is just velaharog and 
lifneihem.  This is proved from the mesorot and has been verified twice by checking 
against the Keter. Ya'akov Sapir's list of over 500 words from the Keter includes both 
words.  Some years ago, a Tanakh of R' Shalom Yellin was found in Jerusalem ( I 
think in the attic) in which he also lists Keter words, including these two, that he 
received by sending his son-in-law to Aleppo to verify correct girsaot. 

Despite this evidence, most Ashkenazi megillas (including mine) have  laharog and 
bifneihem and so does the Venice,1525, Ben Hayyim Mikraot Gedolot.

The Minchat Shai pointed out the error and when his work was published the custom 
of playing safe by reading both forms was started among Ashkenazim, probably by R' 
Hayyim Volozhiner.

An excellent article giving all the details and history has just been written by Yossi 
Peretz of the Bar Ilan Keter project and can be found at www.biu.ac.il/JH. I don't know 
the proper suffixes for the URL but, when you get to the site, you should look for the 
Hebrew parashat hashavua for Vayikra - Zachor TSh"S or 5760, No 331. It has the 
Yossi Peretz article and also an addition by Dr. Zemach Kaisar giving the Yemenite 
tradition as stated by the MaHaRI"Tz.

FWIW, in the 'Ein Hasofer in Heidenheim's megilla the mesora on the word ve-laharog 
is "dein chaser vav" (The first laharog is noted also as chaser vav and the second is 
malei.) Someone told me, years ago, that the mesora "chaser vav" was evidently 
misunderstood, i.e., that it referred to the first vav and not to the second (between 
reish and gimmel) and so they left out the first vav and made it laharog.  I question 
that this is the source of the error because, from the title page of my Heidenheim 
(1825), it appears that Ein Hasofer was written by Heidenheim and may be his 
comment and not a quote of an ancient source.

The Mesorah Ketana says "Leit". If it is the only occurrence, it must be vre-laharog 
because there are two other laharogs right there in the megilla. 

Similar story for lifneihem.

YPeretz cites marei mekomot of R"'MBreuer and Penkower who have written 
extensively on this subject and find no justification for the incorrect reading and the 
repetition.

So, mesorot, history,  logic, and common sense all say that, if you say a word 
correctly the first time, there's no earthly reason to spoil things by then saying it 
wrong.  Me? Oh, I repeat, just as I was taught some 60 years ago.  But I'm tricky. I 
read the wrong girsa first and then correct myself.  Is that too a kiyyum of 
ve-nahafokh hu?

I wish you all the berakha that one of my Arab students once said to me: 

"Burim Sameach".

David

 ---sam wrote: I find it fascinating to compare and contrast minhagim.

Add this to you list:
 For the maror, my family (Galician) used  a solid piece from the top of the horse 
radish with some of the green leaves that sprout from it.  For the korech they used a 
slice of  the white part alone.  I was taught that ground up horse-radish was for 
weaklings and Litvaks.

My wife's family, Yerushalmi'im, used chassa and I converted after arriving in Israel.  
When my children were young, however, I always had a few samples of the "golus 
style" maror and offered them to volunteers.  After a few years I had no volunteers.  My 
sons, at their seders, still show samples to their children. But volunteers rarely repeat 
after the first or second year.

In a message dated 3/19/00 4:40:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
dbnet@barak-online.net writes:

> Burim Sameach

Ein Bur Yerei Cheit :-)

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

I am a fan of the American system of government. This
great experiment of ours has succeeded beyond the
wildest dreams of it's founders. Our form of
representaional government, with it's geographic
rather than factionalistic representation is far more
equitably distributed and carries with it the checks
and balances of not only the three seperate but equal
branches of government, but also the checks and
balances of a defacto two party system and a free
press.  The direct elections of the President
(Executive branch) allows for far more effective
governance than does the parliamentary system, where
the political party chooses who will be it's candidate
and, (if the party wins) who will be it's head of
State. Such leadership is subject more to the will of
the party and less the will of the people.

In Israel the modified parliamentary system, with it's
direct election of PM is a neccessry evil that
combines the two systems somewhat.  It is important,
in the land of proteksia, (clout, for those not
farmiliar with Israeli vernacular) that representation
should be based on factionalism.  This way a
particular faction will be represnted by the exact
(more or less) proportion of it's adherents and will
have as much power legislatively. The fact that the PM
is directly elected increases this power because no
longer does anyone have to switch to a party outside
of his own ideology in order to vote for PM.  The
votes are separated.  One votes for PM and Party
separately.  This is why the religious parties have
increased in power. Many of the religious population
used to vote Likud just so they could be involved in
the selection of the PM.  This is no longer the case. 
Charedim could now vote for Likudnik, Yahu Natanbibi
and still vote for UTJ.

The question in my mind is this:  Is the ultimate good
being served by ceeding ever more power to the
religious parties in their present incarnation? Will
the State be able to remain economically viable?

Unfortunately, the best (worst?) example of how
Charedim would fare as leaders is the municipality of
Bnei Brak (although it IS, without a doubt, the best
place in the world to spend Purim). They have
virtually no tax base. City services are heavily (but
not completely) subsidised by the state.  The reasons
are obviouis. Much of the population of Bnei Brak are
full time Avreichim and the like. This creates a
scenario where money is distributed to the population
in the form of WELFARE instead of money being
distributed back to the Municipality in the form of
TAXES. 

Taxes are a necessary evil in order to pay city
employees for basic services required for any city in
order work... like garbage collection for instance. 
Bnei Brak city workres are constantly on strike. 
Garbage is often not picked up for weeks at a time. In
a highly populous environment like Bnei Brak garbage
piles up quickly.  Large families with many children
produce heaps of garbage. Oft times when I used to
visit Bnei Brak, garbage would line the streets as
garbage cans would overflow. My father, who used to
live in Bnei Brak used to complain bitterly about
this. Why the strikes?  Simple. Not enough of a tax
base to pay the workers. The same is true in other
Charedi Communties like Kiryat Sefer, a brand new
Charedi municipality and what a mess!

Now, lets extend this to Jerusalem.  Not Possible?
Jerusalem has a tax base.  Well, it does for now.  But
many Datim are leaving along with Charedim. Charadim
are filling the void through migration to Jerusalem
and high birth rates. Jobs are found elsewhwere. 
Intel was forced to build it's plant elsewhere in
Israel because of Charedi pressure. Intel intended to
build a plant in Jerusalem. Charedim did not want
Intel's new plant to break up the two neighborhoods
that were expanding at the time and eventually to
combine into one, larger neighborhood. Goodbye Intel. 
Goodbye jobs.  But at least there is a big frum
neighborhood now. 

One of the most beautiful features of "Jerusalem of
Gold" is the Jerusalem stone out of which, all
buildings in the city are required to be built. But
with the housing shortage, especialy for Avreichim,
the now powerful Charedi element in the city's
government has allowed some dwellings to be built out
of cheaper materials. After all, what's more
important, they reason, physical beauty or housing for
poor Avreichim. So the physical beauty of the city is
compromised.

Everybody (all Charedim) seemed to hate former mayor,
Teddy Kollek as sort of a Jewish anti-Semite/Arab
lover...  at least publicly.  But when I spoke to some
Charedim in neighborhoods like Matisdorf (very
Charedi) they would tell me privately that they voted
for him because he knew how to run the city and keep
it economically viable and beautiful.

At the end of the day, who do you want governing your
city, R. Nissan Karelitz, Charedi Mayor of Bnei Brak,
or Teddy Kollek?

HM

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

Harry Maryles wrote...

<<As I've stated in a post long, long ago, (in a galaxy
far, far away), I am against any Takonos of this type!
Chazal didn't legislate it.  Neither should we.   

There is no consideration in these Takanos for those
who make their living in the Simcha business. 

Perhaps there should be Takanos about MOST (not all)
Avreichim getting some job training while they are
still Bachurim.  This way they can afford to pay for
their own Diros and stop freeloading off of their
parents/in-laws! They would then be able to be
M"kayaim number 2) above. I'd support this Takana.>>

You cannot preclude some takkanos on the grounds that chazal did not so 
legislate, and at the same time support new takkanot because the latter group 
are directed against those not like you.  Well, you can, but it detracts from 
the intellectual integrity of your argument (which also somehow presumes that 
the casket-making industry was run by volunteers).

Whatever.  There's no benefit to rehashing this one.

Meyer

In a message dated 3/19/00 12:33:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, kira@sirote.net 
writes:

> It seems from the story that taking off the kapote then was like taking off
>  the yarmulka now.

Yes that is how it was (and certain places still) Viewed.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

> Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 22:32:16 +0200
> From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
> Subject: Re: How can we condemn the church if we do not live up to 
> at least the same standard

<<We all remember the saying, (those of us over 40), if you are not part
of the solution, you are part of the problem.

More nahrishkeit of the 60's. Where are all those people today?>>

	The author of that much overused slogan was none other than Eldridge
Cleaver.  For those of us over 40,   that name does not evoke great awe
and respect for his philosophy.  Rachmana litzlan.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

In a message dated 3/19/00 6:43:18 PM US Central Standard Time, 
gershon.dubin@juno.com writes:

<< 
 <<We all remember the saying, (those of us over 40), if you are not part
 of the solution, you are part of the problem.
 
 More nahrishkeit of the 60's. Where are all those people today?>>
 
    The author of that much overused slogan was none other than Eldridge
 Cleaver.  For those of us over 40,   that name does not evoke great awe
 and respect for his philosophy.  Rachmana litzlan. >>

Okay. How about, He's who's not busy being born is busy dying? Or, Get out 
the way if you don't understand that the times they are a'changin'? Or, 
'scuse me while I kiss the sky? All seem to have a religious message . . . .

David Finch

In a message dated 3/19/00 7:43:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
gershon.dubin@juno.com writes:

<< 
 <<We all remember the saying, (those of us over 40), if you are not part
 of the solution, you are part of the problem.
 
 More nahrishkeit of the 60's. Where are all those people today?>>
 
    The author of that much overused slogan was none other than Eldridge
 Cleaver.  For those of us over 40,   that name does not evoke great awe
 and respect for his philosophy.  Rachmana litzlan.
 
 Gershon >>
Take the truth no matter where it comes from (isn't this expression the same 
lesson as why did Moshe Rabbeinu tell am Yisrael that they had committed a 
great sin by the egel after he and bnai levi killed the sinners?  Because the 
remainder committed a passive sin by allowing the situation to develop -they 
were part of the problem by not being part of the solution)

Have a meaningful and easy fast,
Joel Rich

Quick Lesson By Example From Rabbi Kletzkin 
===================================

     Rabbi Eliyahu Kletzkin of Jerusalem had a 
phenomenal memory.  One reading would be 
sufficient for him to remember all of the facts 
and figures on a page. 

     He utilized this gift to assist others by memorizing 
the schedules of trains and ships all over the world, 
so that people who planned trips could consult him. 

     Although he never planned to travel to the United 
States, he knew the entire schedule of the New York 
subway system by heart in order that people traveling 
to New York could ask his advice on the routes they 
would need when they arrived.

SOURCE: The book LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR by
                Rabbi Zelig Pliskin, page 256, quoting 
                Maigdolay Yerushalayim, p. 220

BIOGRAPHICAL NOTE: Rabbi Eliyahu Kletzkin (1852-1932, 
               Orthodox) became the Rabbi of the city of Lublin 
               in 1910 and moved to Israel in 1928.

In a message dated 3/19/00 3:28:45 PM Central Standard Time, 
owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:

<< If R. Aaron Soloveichik can serve as an example of the
 correct approach, he was the most vocal Anti Viet Nam
 war activist in the Orthodox world.  >>

R. Aaron Soloveichik should be Jewry's profile in courage. If he has ANY 
major faults, it's that he chose a too diverse city to live, where some 
groups have little appreciation for his gadlus, knowledge, and, humanity, 
and, where many rabbonim lack the wherewithall to stand up for him, and, his 
ideals, when they know he's right!
Barry Schwarz

In a message dated 3/19/00 3:28:45 PM Central Standard Time, 
owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:

<< if we kevetch and whine about how the 
 church should have done more, etc., etc., should we as a nation, should do 
 at least a little more to stop the pogroms around the world?
 
  We all remember the saying, (those of us over 40), if you are not part of 
 the solution, you are part of the problem.
  >>
Unless, you cause more problems trying to solve everyone else' problems, that 
is. We are a unique people, perhaps an anomaly among nations, but, we are 
weak. Millions are assimilating, and, intermarrying, many shomrei mitzvos are 
meandering, and, falling off the derech.....is this really a time for the 
"Universal Jew," for "Super Jew" to save the world? From which projects 
should the resources for these protests be diverted?
 Regarding the Pope, the point of forgiveness is mute. First, the man, and, 
his Church are hypocrites. Their stated purpose, from their inception, 
was/is, seinat Yisrael, and, nothing less than conversion, and/or death, for 
all Jewish "sinners," and, that philosophy hasn't changed. What kind of 
forgiveness can the wrong person ask from the dead? Second, without their 
total bitul of the notoriously Anti-Jewish New Israel Doctrine, (also called 
Replacement Theology) and, The Catholic Mission to the Jews, all the babbling 
in the world by Catholics, about forgiveness, is as meaningless as 
Christianity itself. For them, true teshuvah would be a total kifirah. We 
need to work on our mission as Jews: Avodas Hashem, Ahavas Yisrael, before we 
can even think about saving the world from itself.
Purim Someach,
Barry Schwarz

I will leave it to someone from Bnei Brak to respond to the 
nahrishkeit posted here about that city, and to someone from 
Kiryat Sefer to respond to the nahrishkeit that was posted about 
that city. Suffice it to say that the cities that are going broke these 
days are Beit Shean, Sderot, Netivot and so on. Most of those 
cities have barely a Charedi (and certainly barely an Ashkenazi 
Charedi) in site. What they do have is corruption of the highest 
order, which has nothing to do whatsoever with Charedim.

I must, however respond to the SHEKER, KAZAV AND LASHON 
HARA which someone has the chutzpa to speak about 
YERUSHALAYIM IR HAKODESH. 

On 19 Mar 00, at 14:10, someone wrote:

> Now, lets extend this to Jerusalem.  Not Possible?
> Jerusalem has a tax base.  Well, it does for now.  But
> many Datim are leaving along with Charedim. Charadim
> are filling the void through migration to Jerusalem
> and high birth rates. Jobs are found elsewhwere. 

I would suggest that you take a walk through the industrial parks in 
Malcha and Har Chotzvim before you make a statement like that. 
Last week, a company called Tradeum was bought up by 
Verticalnet for $500 million. That company is located in 
Yerushalayim Ir HaKodesh. One of my Charedi neighbors is a big 
muck a muck in that company, which is how I know about it 
firsthand and not just from the news reports. Among the companies 
that are publicly traded in the United States are Amdocs, 
Radvision, Delta Three, and many other start ups you have never 
heard of (but will IY"H some day - my partners and I represent a 
few of them) all of which are based in or have major offices in 
Yerushalayim.

But even if all of this was not true - isn't our goal in life supposed to 
be learning Torah? Isn't Torah paramount? Baruch Hashem we have 
Zevulun's to support the Yissochor's in Yerushalayim. But if chas 
v'shalom we didn't, would that be a reason to condemn?

> Intel was forced to build it's plant elsewhere in
> Israel because of Charedi pressure. Intel intended to
> build a plant in Jerusalem. Charedim did not want
> Intel's new plant to break up the two neighborhoods
> that were expanding at the time and eventually to
> combine into one, larger neighborhood. Goodbye Intel. 
> Goodbye jobs.  But at least there is a big frum
> neighborhood now. 

Totally, utterly and completely false. Sheker v'chazav. Intel was 
supposed to build its plant in Har Chotzvim and it chose not to 
because it realized that Yerushalmim would never tolerate a plant 
open on Shabbos. Do you suggest that because of the Almighty 
Buck we should bring Chilul Shabbos to Yerushalayim and destroy 
the Holy character of our city? Who are you to dictate that from 
Chicago?

> One of the most beautiful features of "Jerusalem of
> Gold" is the Jerusalem stone out of which, all
> buildings in the city are required to be built. But
> with the housing shortage, especialy for Avreichim,
> the now powerful Charedi element in the city's
> government has allowed some dwellings to be built out
> of cheaper materials. After all, what's more
> important, they reason, physical beauty or housing for
> poor Avreichim. So the physical beauty of the city is
> compromised.

First of all, this is total and complete sheker. The only place I know 
of where housing has been built out of anything other than 
Jerusalem Stone in the last ten years was extensions to the 
Shmuel HaNavi public housing which were not built from Jerusalem 
Stone in the first place. My neighborhood, which was completed in 
1996, and is the newest neighborhood in Yerushalayim, and is 
about 99% Charedi, is totally built out of Jerusalem Stone. 

Second of all, is a Jew meant to judge things on their physical 
beauty? Is that the values we are taught and that we are supposed 
to teach our children? How about all the Gemaras about people 
who were ugly on the outside but beautiful on the inside? If this is 
the value set of the Galus - physical beauty and wealth - you can 
keep it as far as I am concerned. DON'T bring it here.

As to the final swipes about Teddy Kollek, I'm not even going to get 
into that. If it's possible, the poster knows even less about his 
subject there than he does about the rest of his anti-Charedi vitriol.

I would suggest that the poster get his facts straight before he 
posts this kind of diatribe again. I would also suggest that Chicago 
is a lousy place to keep track of the goings on in Yerushalayim.

-- Carl M. Sherer
   Ramat Shlomo
   Yerushalayim Ir HaKodesh TTBB"A


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

> Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 11:53:42 -0800 (PST)
> From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: New Wedding Takonos in Israel

> As I've stated in a post long, long ago, (in a galaxy
> far, far away), I am against any Takonos of this type!
> Chazal didn't legislate it.  Neither should we.   

Chazal didn't legislate it because it wasn't a problem in their time. 
Every generation of Rabbonim has to legislate what the people of 
that time need. Yiftach b'doro k'Shmuel b'doro. I am sure that in 
Chazal's time, no one overheard prominent Roshei Yeshiva telling 
their talmidim at a Chasuna that one should look for a wife whose 
father can provide two apartments - one to live in and one to rent - 
as one of my friends (who davka could afford two apartments) 
claimed to have heard certain Roshei Yeshiva saying. Should 
money be our criterion for marrying? Where does that lead us?

> There is no consideration in these Takanos for those
> who make their living in the Simcha business. 

First of all, in Eretz Yisrael, the main cost of the Chasuna is NOT 
the simcha. It's the apartment and the appliances and supporting a 
young couple for x number of years in Kollel. Baruch Hashem that 
$200 a plate and up weddings have not made it to Eretz Yisrael (at 
least not that I have seen). Baruch Hashem that most people who 
go out of Yerushalayim (or at least to the outskirts) to make 
chasunas, so that they avoid the cherem on having full bands, still 
limit themselves to three our four pieces. The only problem here 
with the wedding itself is the number of guests that people invite 
(often far more than in the States) and that can be solved by 
inviting many of those people only to the Chupa and/or to a 
Simchas Chosson v'Kallah after the meal. 

However, like the bartender who continues to serve a drunk, I think 
that people in the "Simcha business" as you call it, bear some 
degree of responsibility for selling people "simchos" that become a 
bchiya ledoros when families go into debt because they have to 
keep up with the Cohens. How does someone who is on 
scholarship at the local Yeshiva justify spending six figures (or 
close to it) on a simcha? How does someone who can barely meet 
their monthly mortgage payment justify spending having a simcha 
with a choice of prime rib, cornish hen or roast duck? How does 
someone who turns aniyim from his neighborhood away from his 
door justify serving a shmorgasboard that's k'yad ha'melech? To 
say that the Gdolim who make such takanos have "no 
consideration for people in the simcha business," strikes me as 
smug and as chutzpadik.

> Perhaps there should be Takanos about MOST (not all)
> Avreichim getting some job training while they are
> still Bachurim.  This way they can afford to pay for
> their own Diros and stop freeloading off of their
> parents/in-laws! They would then be able to be
> M"kayaim number 2) above. I'd support this Takana.

One of the problems with this takana is that there is almost no 
rental housing in Israel, and virtually none in Charedi areas. What 
rental housing there is exists in places like Har Nof, which are 
among the most expensive areas in the city, with absentee 
landlords. One of the problems the Rabbonim will have to deal with 
is encouraging people to build rental housing in a country where 
rental housing is scarce and the government policy is to encourage 
home ownership. Also, saying that people have to live in a rental for 
five years is not much of a takana, since most of the fruhm 
neighborhoods are built as planned communities these days. You 
buy on paper and it can take 4-5 years to get in (it took us four and 
a half years from the time we signed our contract until we moved 
into our apartment). 

It's not like America where you can get a mortgage with a 5% 
downpayment and work off the rest. A mortgage is a much higher 
percentage of your disposable income here. Every parent in Israel - 
yes, even most Chiloni parents - helps their children significantly 
with the cost of an apartment. So to turn this into another reason to 
attack the Charedi world for not having "job training" misses the 
point.

> As for number 3)  No one should legislate who pays for
> what. That takes away free will and the ability to
> negotiate the best structure for each individual
> situation.  No two situations are alike.

No, they are not. But when there are tens if not hundreds of 
Yeshiva bochrim, who until now have been told that they should 
only go out with girls whose parents can provide a "sidur malei" 
(wedding plus apartment plus several years of support all on the 
cheshbon of the wife's parents), something is seriously wrong. And 
since my kids are bli ayin hara even right now (3 of each) I don't 
have a vested interest either way in a siddur malei - I just think it's 
wrong as a criterion for dating someone.

I am thankful that the Rabbonim have recognized the problem and 
are taking steps to deal with it. Even if these takonos are not 
adhered to the last pruta, at least it will make people think about 
the opulence of their simchas.

> Long live the free market!

I support a free market also . But NO value is absolute.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

> Intel was forced to build it's plant elsewhere in
> Israel because of Charedi pressure. Intel intended to
>

Actually, Intel was forced to move, in large part, due to *environmentalist*
pressure.

I'm giving the rest of your post the attention it deserves -- none.

Akiva


"What do you think of me?"
"I don't".
(Ayn Rand)

===========================
Akiva Atwood, POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

In message , DFinchPC@aol.com writes
>In a message dated 3/18/00 3:05:29 PM US Central Standard Time, 
>Chana/Heather@luntz.demon.co.uk writes:
>
><<What Rav Hertzog was suggesting was that
> the framework of halacha was wide enough, and had indeed been wide
> enough historically, to encompass both judicial and, in the form of
> takanot, legislative solutions to deal with specific social needs to
> given legal problems.>>
>
>I'm not sure I understand. To which "takanot" do you refer? The Takanot 
>Leeshe'at Kheroom? Are you really suggesting that Rav Herzog believed in 
>rabbinic as opposed to electoral governance on contemporary legislative 
>issues? 
>  
> 

Takanot were not, or were not only, used by Rabbinic authorities.
Historically, they were also made by the "tovei ha'ir" who could be
(were) lay people (and who could be and sometimes were, elected)for the
benefit of the people in their city.  Takanot could also be made by a
guild/union (such as the donkey drivers) for their guild or any other
group of people of this nature.  There are, throughout the literature,
requirements of a check on the content of such takanot by reference to
the Rabbinic leadership (the gadol hador) - but this was more in the
nature of a "constitutional" type check.

The availability of the power (by others as well as the rabbinic
authorities) to make takanot comes from the gemorra (the tovei ha'ir
concept comes from the Yerushalmi, the donkey driver example comes from
the Bavli), but its uses are really refined by the rishonim and achronim
to meet the needs of the time.

>The British model has hardly been "stable and robust" in Israel, where Judaic 
>heterodoxy and parliamentary fractionalism has made it impossible for anyone 
>to get along with anyone else for more than a few weeks at most.

Actually, that is often the sign of a healthy democracy.  On the
contrary, in terms of democratic studies, Israel is most successful.
The fact that you, as a religious Jew, object to rabbis dirtying
themselves with politics is a different matter.  You believe rabbis
should operate on a higher moral plane.  But democracy is specifically
not about a higher moral plane.  It is about containing the competing
self interest of different portions of the community. 

> The question 
>for Avodah isn't which democratic model, British or American, is better in 
>the abstract or is better for warding off Banana Republic-style military 
>coups. Rather, the question is whether the American model might make more 
>sense given the particular social and religious realities in Israel, 
>particularly the problem Orthodoxy faces when its rabbis keep dirtying 
>themselves by trying to do "business" with the nation's politicians. The 
>evidence is ample that the British model has already failed -- miserably. 
>What else is there but the American alternative?

First of all, there are lots of different kinds of British model.  If
the pure British model had been tried in Israel, you almost certainly
would not have the multiple political parties you have.  That is because
the UK version has constituent democracy and first past the post voting,
both of which tend to produce overall majorities and hence make
coalitions rare.  Israel has one overall constituency and hence,
effectively proportional representation - the result of which is
invariably coalition governments.  One way of limiting this, a la the
Germans, is to have a reasonably high threshold before parties can get
into the parliament, which cuts down on the number of differing parties.

The counterbalancing argument against the UK version is that it
disinfranchises large segments of the population (as, to an extent, does
the US Congress, which adopted the same constituent/first past the post
form - although because of the split in powers, the Congress is likely
to be even more fractious and divided than a parliamentary model - this
is why the Israeli version, on moving towards a more US model, by having
a direct vote for Prime Minister, inevitably ended up with even more
small parties in the Knesset than before - the dicipline imposed on
having a prime minister within parliament is another stablising factor
which has now been lost).

I really need to get to work, but we can continue this at another time
if you are interested.

>
>David Finch
>

Regards

Chana

-- 
Chana/Heather Luntz

*********************


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