Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 447

Sunday, March 19 2000

• Rav Herszog
• Megilas Esther & Sheimos/Tasmania
• New Wedding Takonos in Israel
• RE: Yated of Last week
• Jewish Fashion
• Mishpat Ivri
• Re: How can we condemn the church if we do not live up to at least the same s...
• Re: How can we condemn the church if we do not live up to at least the same standard
• Re: New Wedding Takonos in Israel
• Shmuel, Agag, Rachmanus
• Re: How can we condemn the church if we do not live up to at least the same standard
• Re: Shmuel, Agag, Rachmanus
• Re: Shapiro's Biography of Sridei Eish

> Chana writes:
> 
> <<What Rav Hertzog was suggesting was that
>  the framework of halacha was wide enough, and had indeed been wide
>  enough historically, to encompass both judicial and, in the form of
>  takanot, legislative solutions to deal with specific social needs to
>  given legal problems.>>
> 
With regard to daughters inheriting their fathers R. Herszog himself
admits that he got no support in within the bet din of the rabbanut
not to speak of outsiders disagreeing.
Hence, his opinions became a minority of one.

Eli Turkel

Subject: Megilas Esther & Sheimos/Tasmania
From Shlomo B Abeles

*Me'inyone D"Yoma.*
Some years ago we vacationed in Tasmania. (For the benefit of  those
who think that the world ends at the Mexican and Canadian
borders/and even Time magazine once confused it with Tanzania/
- Tasmania is an island state of Australia, an hours
flight from Melbourne.). Its capital city is Hobart -
which boasts the oldest Shul in Australia.

(Although there are hardly any Jews living there, Hobart proves
(in a "Venahapoch Hu" way) the "2 Jews-3 Shuls" syndrome.
The approx. 5 "orthodox" Jews have had huge battles with
the approx. 5 "reform" Jews - regarding the "style"
of services-which the Shul DOESN'T have. (I think the Reform won -
but  they agreed to alternate - so one week they don't davven
Orthodox and the other week they don't pray
Reform.) This is more or less  the situation.

The president of the community took our family for a "tour" of
the Shul, which has a very interesting history. (They still have the
numbered benches at the back which were reserved for the Jewish
convicts who were  transported to Tasmania when it was a British penal colony.
They were not permitted to sit in the normal pews. The British Chief Rabbi
at the time also paskened that these "nebechdige" convicts - some
whose crimes were stealing a loaf of bread for their starving families...
- were not to be Oleh LaTorah.

The president opened the Oron Hakodesh and showed us an
old Megilas Esther which is kept there. I unscrolled it and noticed
that  many words had their Roshei or Sofei Teivos in larger than the normal script.
Checking it out I realized that these made up various Sheimos "Adni, YKVK"  etc.
This was the first time I had seen or even heard about such a style of Megilla.

Since then, I have asked around. There were those
who had heard but no one  had actually seen a similar Megilla

Meanwhile I have found that the Komarno Rebbe zt''l in his Heichal
Habrocho Chumash - list all the many Sheimos that arise from Roshei v'Sofei
Teivos sourcing them to the Siddur Reb Shabsi.
(He also writes a reason why there actually
is no Shem Hashem at all in the Megilla.)

In the Megilla printed in the Siddur of Reb Yaakov Emden
zt''l the Sheimos are emphasised and he notes that
according to the Arizal everyone should be mechaven  all these Sheimos.

However AFAIK no one actually says that a Megilla should be written thus.
I assume that being a Megilla there is no Shaaloh re Kashrus.

Have any of our knowledgeable Chevrah any further information on this topic?
Has anyone else seen such a Megilla and are any in use these days?

A Simchas Purim to all!

SHLOMO B ABELES
(From Down Under - but - on top of the world -
during  the Venahapoch Hu season)

PS  (And almost a Purim Torah:) BTW talking of Tasmania, some
time ago I read a book called (I think) History of Jews in
Tasmania which relates a story from the early days of the Hobart
Hebrew Congregation. The Shul Board had passed a resolution that any person
found to be working on Shabbos be fined the amount of 2 shillings
and sixpence. One Sunday they called in and fined a certain
member whose wife had opened their store on the previous
Shabbos. The husband claimed, however, that  wives were not included
in the Issur of working on Shabbos. His proof was that in the
Torah it is written - Lo Saaseh Bo Melcoho - Atto Uvincho Uvitecho
Avdecho VeAmosecho - whilst "Ishtecho" doesn't get a mention....

The following was posted to tachlis on Friday afternoon just before 
Shabbos. Any comments?

--- Carl

One of the big worries of Israeli parents is that blackmail that they
call "marrying off your children and buying them an apartment when 
you
can barely buy one yourself". Well, the Rabbonim of Israel have 
come
to our aid. So this is a public service to all who listen to the
Rabbis. I am translating what was printed in the weekly newspaper
bakehilla and Yated Ne'eman:

They have now ruled that:

1. The couple must marry themselves off and not rely on parents to 
pay
for everything. The rabbinic halachic words were "hu kodem l'bano" 
and
their motto is "cal echad m'chaten echad -- et atzmo"

2. ALL young couples MUST live in a rented apartment for the 
period of
five years. During this five years, they must save up money. The 
three
"sides" [the couple, his parents, and her parents] must each put in
ONLY 15% of the cost of the apartment [to be in an outlying area 
and
for $90,000 or less)]. The rest of the cost [55%] must be obtained in
a mortgage.

3. Wedding costs are to be shared 50/50 by both sides and should 
be
less than $10,000.

One more reason why now is a good time for aliya :-)


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

You seem to presume that defense of Eretz Yisrael is not spiritual.  The
writer's thesis was that only limud Hatorah beiyun makes any contribution to
the protection of klal yisrael.  Period. Not kiyum hamitzvos, chesed, limud
hatorah without iyun or even (by implication) tefillah. And of course not
physical defense of Eretz Yisrael.

No I don't think Rav Dessler was obscene.  It is one thing to say that we
are all instruments of the divine plan.  It is another to be mevatel the
contributions of everyone but those with whom you associate.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gil.Student@citicorp.com [mailto:Gil.Student@citicorp.com]
Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 11:38 AM
To: avodah@aishdas.org; sk@ezlaw.com
Subject: RE: Yated of Last week


>>Am I the only one who thought it was obscene?(Or is no one else willing to
admit reading the Yated?)Is it any wonder that many Chareidim
demonsratratively
show their lack of hakaras hatov on Yom Hazikaron:Why get upset about a
bunch of
snapped ropes and cracked buckets?Is it any wonder that there is resentment
by
non-Chareidm of this?>>

I didn't see the article and am relying on your description.

Why are you so upset about a metaphor?  It is not meant literally only
symbolically.  IIRC, the concept of people being keilim can be found in
Michtav
Me'Eliyahu and applies there to all non-tzaddikim. Was R. Dessler obscene
also?

If non-Chareidim are incapable of understanding the world in terms of
metaphor,
that our primary purpose in the world is spiritual and the physical is a
tool
for increased spirituality, then perhaps Chareidim should speak in better
"sound
bytes".

Your reaction is reminiscent of the reaction to Dr. Lamm's comment about
cavemen.  Since "cavemen" has a negative connotation many weren't willing to
look beyond the surface and realize that they would probably be honored to
be
associated with Rashbi.

Gil Student
gil.student@citicorp.com

I read a story on Shabbos that is relevant to the discussion on Jewish garb.
The story went something like this:  a Gvir is marrying off his daughter to
a Yeshiva Bochur.  She agrees to marry him on the condition that he goes to
university and starts wearing Western clothing.  When the Rebbe comes to the
wedding to be Mesader Kedushin and sees the Chosan wearing "short" Western
clothing, he turns on one heel and walks out.  Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES will
he agree to perform a wedding while the Chosan is rejecting his heritage.
In the end, he is persuaded not to humiliate the wealthy baalei simcha on
the condition that the boy at least put on some nice long Jewish clothing
for the wedding itself.

It seems from the story that taking off the kapote then was like taking off
the yarmulka now.  It meant that you left the Torah world and were not
coming back.  No wonder most rabbis objected vehemently.  No wonder the
Hassidim wear whatever they wear - what would it mean for them to stop?

And no wonder that RSH"R Hirsh felt that everyone would leave if we didn't
show that you do not need to reject all of Western culture in order to live
a Torah life.

> 
> Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 20:07:35 EST
> From: DFinchPC@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Mishpat Ivri
> 
> In a message dated 3/18/00 3:05:29 PM US Central Standard Time, 
> Chana/Heather@luntz.demon.co.uk writes:
> 
>  
> << As has been noted by students of democracy - the two models
>  British (parliamentary)and American (presidential, involving the balance
>  of powers you describe) have both been tried in many places around the
>  world.  It is noteworthy that the American model is far more prone to
>  breakdown (coup de etat) than the British model.  Somewhere upstairs in
>  my loft I have a copy of a article which documents this fact, and makes
>  the point that the US example is the only example following the American
>  model which has *not* suffered from a breakdown in democracy (such as
>  imposition of miltary rule of dictatorship) at any period in its
>  history.  In contrast, the British model is far more stable and robust,
>  and breakdown to the extent of imposition of miltary rule or
>  dictatorship is extremely rare. >> 
> 
> The British model has hardly been "stable and robust" in Israel, where Judaic 
> heterodoxy and parliamentary fractionalism has made it impossible for anyone 
> to get along with anyone else for more than a few weeks at most. The question 
> for Avodah isn't which democratic model, British or American, is better in 
> the abstract or is better for warding off Banana Republic-style military 
> coups. Rather, the question is whether the American model might make more 
> sense given the particular social and religious realities in Israel, 
> particularly the problem Orthodoxy faces when its rabbis keep dirtying 
> themselves by trying to do "business" with the nation's politicians. The 
> evidence is ample that the British model has already failed -- miserably. 
> What else is there but the American alternative?
> 
> David Finch

One major correction.  Israel is not on the Brittsh system.  While,, they 
are both parliamentary systems the method of  choosing MC/MKs are much 
different.  England has district representation while Israel has 
proportional representation.  Proportional reprsentation usually create 
numeous small factions that could not survive with district 
represenation.  There is also less accountability by the indiivual 
members since they chosen by the party and not by the electors in a 
specific district.

--- Joelirich@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 3/19/00 12:27:53 AM Eastern
> Standard Time, 
> sherer@actcom.co.il writes:
> 
> << 
>  > Putting the shoe on the other foot, in the 50+
> years since ww2 has ended, 
>  > there has been numerous pogroms, civil wars,
> ethnic cleansings, etc., that 
>  > did not involve Jews  When did any Rabbinate
> officially protest these 
> issues 
>  > (and attempt to have them cease) in the same way
> they feel the church 
> should 
>  > have?
>  > 
>  > How can we condemn the church if we do not live
> up to at least the same 
>  > standard?
>  
>  There's a fundamental difference. We as a people
> have never 
>  (AFAIK) carried out a pogrom against anyone. The
> Church called 
>  for the Crusades. Most of the pogroms against Jews
> that have 
>  been carried out since then have been carried out
> in the name of 
>  the Church in one form or another.
>  
>  -- Carl
>   >>
> While there may be a fundamental difference, it
> doesn't address the root 
> question - does klal Yisrael have a chiyuv to speak
> out on issues not 
> "directly" affecting us?  This may be related to
> some earlier discussions 
> regarding whether  "or lagoyim" means we perfect
> ourselves and the nations 
> will notice or is there an affirmative
> responsibility to be mashpia on the 
> outside world.
> 

If R. Aaron Soloveichik can serve as an example of the
correct approach, he was the most vocal Anti Viet Nam
war activist in the Orthodox world. 

HM

__________________________________________________
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Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
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Hi Carl,

))))))))))))))
There's a fundamental difference. We as a people have never (AFAIK) carried 
out a pogrom against anyone. The Church called for the Crusades. Most of the 
pogroms against Jews that have been carried out since then have been carried 
out in the name of the Church in one form or another.
((((((((((((((((

Did you read last week's haftorah? What do you call the attack against 
Amalek?  In fact, we are all cursed since Saul did not finish the job and 
let Agog live.

But my main question is, and let me preface that I am not attempting to be a 
melitz yoshar for the Holy See; but if we kevetch and whine about how the 
church should have done more, etc., etc., should we as a nation, should do 
at least a little more to stop the pogroms around the world?

What Amnesty International is doing (also not attempting to be a melitz 
yoshar for them) should be what we, as klal yisroel are doing.

I would venture to state that at least a third of the frum populace could 
not identify Khartoum on a map.  Yet there is a holocaust of sorts going on 
there in the Sudan, anyone want to organize a protest?

We all remember the saying, (those of us over 40), if you are not part of 
the solution, you are part of the problem.

/af



>From: "Carl and Adina Sherer" <sherer@actcom.co.il>
>Reply-To: sherer@actcom.co.il
>To: "aviva fee" <aviva613@hotmail.com>, avodah@aishdas.org
>Subject: Re: How can we condemn the church if we do not live up to at least 
>the same standard
>Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 07:25:40 +0200
>
>On 18 Mar 00, at 20:38, aviva fee wrote:
>
> > Putting the shoe on the other foot, in the 50+ years since ww2 has 
>ended,
> > there has been numerous pogroms, civil wars, ethnic cleansings, etc., 
>that
> > did not involve Jews  When did any Rabbinate officially protest these 
>issues
> > (and attempt to have them cease) in the same way they feel the church 
>should
> > have?
> >
> > How can we condemn the church if we do not live up to at least the same
> > standard?
>
>There's a fundamental difference. We as a people have never
>(AFAIK) carried out a pogrom against anyone. The Church called
>for the Crusades. Most of the pogroms against Jews that have
>been carried out since then have been carried out in the name of
>the Church in one form or another.
>
>-- Carl
>
>
>Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
>Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
>Thank you very much.
>
>Carl and Adina Sherer
>mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

--- "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il> wrote:
> The following was posted to tachlis on Friday
> afternoon just before 
> Shabbos. Any comments?
> 
> --- Carl
> 
> One of the big worries of Israeli parents is that
> blackmail that they
> call "marrying off your children and buying them an
> apartment when 
> you
> can barely buy one yourself". Well, the Rabbonim of
> Israel have 
> come
> to our aid. So this is a public service to all who
> listen to the
> Rabbis. I am translating what was printed in the
> weekly newspaper
> bakehilla and Yated Ne'eman:
> 
> They have now ruled that:
> 
> 1. The couple must marry themselves off and not rely
> on parents to 
> pay
> for everything. The rabbinic halachic words were "hu
> kodem l'bano" 
> and
> their motto is "cal echad m'chaten echad -- et
> atzmo"
> 
> 2. ALL young couples MUST live in a rented apartment
> for the 
> period of
> five years. During this five years, they must save
> up money. The 
> three
> "sides" [the couple, his parents, and her parents]
> must each put in
> ONLY 15% of the cost of the apartment [to be in an
> outlying area 
> and
> for $90,000 or less)]. The rest of the cost [55%]
> must be obtained in
> a mortgage.
> 
> 3. Wedding costs are to be shared 50/50 by both
> sides and should 
> be
> less than $10,000.
> 
> One more reason why now is a good time for aliya :-)


As I've stated in a post long, long ago, (in a galaxy
far, far away), I am against any Takonos of this type!
Chazal didn't legislate it.  Neither should we.   

There is no consideration in these Takanos for those
who make their living in the Simcha business. 

Perhaps there should be Takanos about MOST (not all)
Avreichim getting some job training while they are
still Bachurim.  This way they can afford to pay for
their own Diros and stop freeloading off of their
parents/in-laws! They would then be able to be
M"kayaim number 2) above. I'd support this Takana.

As for number 3)  No one should legislate who pays for
what. That takes away free will and the ability to
negotiate the best structure for each individual
situation.  No two situations are alike.

Long live the free market!

Burma Shave

HM



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Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

I heard an interesting bit from R' Adam Mintz of Lincoln Square Synagogue
over Shaleshudis this week (we were visiting for my parents' 36th anniversary).

What's the connection between today's haftarah and the Megillah?

What was Shaul's motivation?  He acknowledged his sin to Shmuel as
Chatati ci yareiti et pi H' v'et dvareicha, ci yareiti et haaam
veshamaati beqolam.  (I Sam 15:24)  He was worried about public
opinion, and he let that interfere with what had to be done.

Now, who are Mordechai & Esther?  Their great**n grandfather was
Shaul's father: Mordechai ben Yair ben SHimi ben Kish (Shaul's
father) ish yemini.  When Esther hesitates about going to Achashverosh,
Mordechai lectures her, saying that if you don't go, salvation will
still come, but you & I will be destroyed.  At that moment, she takes
control, she no longer worries what others with think of her, she 
goes, and kaasher avadti avadti.  By doing that, by doing what had
to be done without worrying about other people's opinions, she 
makes up for, she corrects, Shaul her relative's mistake.  The
tragic tale of Shaul's downfall before his Amalek is reversed into
Mordechai & Esther's victory before their Amalek.

On 19 Mar 00, at 11:02, aviva fee wrote:

> Hi Carl,
> 
> ))))))))))))))
> There's a fundamental difference. We as a people have never (AFAIK)
> carried out a pogrom against anyone. The Church called for the
> Crusades. Most of the pogroms against Jews that have been carried out
> since then have been carried out in the name of the Church in one form
> or another. ((((((((((((((((
> 
> Did you read last week's haftorah? What do you call the attack against
> Amalek?  In fact, we are all cursed since Saul did not finish the job
> and let Agog live.

Amalek was a special situation and it was most definitely provoked 
(unlike the numerous church attacks against us throughout the 
ages). Read the Malbim at the end of Ki Tetze or in 1 Shmuel 15.

> But my main question is, and let me preface that I am not attempting
> to be a melitz yoshar for the Holy See; but if we kevetch and whine
> about how the church should have done more, etc., etc., should we as a
> nation, should do at least a little more to stop the pogroms around
> the world?

In a word, no. We are nowhere near the size of the Catholic 
Church, nor are we anywhere near the size of any of the Protestant 
denominations nor of the Muslims for that matter. No one person or 
group speaks for all of us, as opposed to the Pope who DOES 
speak for Catholics worldwide. There are at least 200 families in 
my *neighborhood* who have trouble putting food on the table. I am 
going to worry about them before I worry about Sudan or 
Afghanistan or Bosnia or anyplace else, which is not my people 
and where my potential impact is minimal. Aniyei ircha kodmim.

> What Amnesty International is doing (also not attempting to be a
> melitz yoshar for them) should be what we, as klal yisroel are doing.

Says who? 

> I would venture to state that at least a third of the frum populace
> could not identify Khartoum on a map.  Yet there is a holocaust of
> sorts going on there in the Sudan, anyone want to organize a protest?

When Am Yisrael is unified in emuna in Hashem, then we can be 
an Ohr laGoyim. Until then, we have to work on ourselves first. I am 
more interested in organizing a demonstration against 
indoctrinating Jewish children with the "poetry" of Muhamed 
Darwish R"L than I am interested in organizing demonstrations 
about the Sudan.

> We all remember the saying, (those of us over 40), if you are not part
> of the solution, you are part of the problem.

More nahrishkeit of the 60's. Where are all those people today? 
They're all part of the "Me" Generation, worried about nothing but 
their own wallets....

-- Carl (over 40 thank you)


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 19 Mar 00, at 15:18, jjbaker@panix.com wrote:

> What was Shaul's motivation?  He acknowledged his sin to Shmuel as
> Chatati ci yareiti et pi H' v'et dvareicha, ci yareiti et haaam
> veshamaati beqolam.  (I Sam 15:24)  He was worried about public
> opinion, and he let that interfere with what had to be done.

Too bad the government here has the same galus mentality 
worrying about public opinion. In case you all missed it (it was 
buried in the papers here), the ambulance that will accompany the 
Pope during his trip here will have the Magen David Adom covered 
up, lest his ____ness be offended....

"Post Zionism" = Return to Galus Mentality

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

I found it to be a fascinating book.  It has a wonderful treatment of Berlin
vs. Frankfurt Orthodoxy, as well a very good synopsis of the  Slabodka
schism (albeit it appears shy on the details of both).  Aditionally, Shapiro
clearly shows that the controversy regarding stunning of cows in light of
governmental decrees requiring it, was in some way politcally motivated (as
I had thought) in that that more charedi elements in Germany and Hungary
took steps to preempt those seeking a heter to use stunning from obtaining
one.
The Seidei Eish, is shown to be a brilliant tamudist, Halachist and biblical
linguist; as well as an adroit leader of his school and of large portions of
German orthodoxy.  He is also shown to be a man painfuly conflicted in the
most intimate of ways.  I found nothing disparaging in the book, nor
anything which would tend to derogate from R. Weinberg's greatness.

DANIEL B. SCHWARTZ, ESQ. SPECIALIZING IN ALL ASPECTS
OF MATRIMONIAL, FAMILY AND COMMERCIAL LITIGATION FOR
FURTHER INFORMATION INQUIRE AT:
SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET
----- Original Message -----
From: <richard_wolpoe@ibi.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>; <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 9:18 AM
Subject: Shapiro's Biography of Sridei Eish


> One more time...
>
> For those who have actually read this book, or even parts of it, I welcome
any
> input,
>
> I have saved most of the on-list discussions, much of which is about
shparios;
> other writings; I'd prefer to focus on the book, and not go into tangents
about
> the author.
>
> !hcayamas mirup gahc
>
> And have a great shabbos!
>
> Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com
>
>

*********************


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