Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 424

Thursday, March 9 2000

• Re: Torah u'Melocho
• Re: Yissachor-Zevulun Learning Arrangement
• Re: bzeias apecha tochal lechem
• Iranian prisoners
• Re: Iranian prisoners
• Re: Avodah V4 #422 / Krispy Kreme donuts
• Re: Yissachor-Zevulun Learning Arrangement
• Re: Yissachor-Zevulun Learning Arrangement
• Trade Schools and The Malaise of Snobbery
• Re: birkhat ha-gomeil
• Re: Trade Schools and The Malaise of Snobbery
• Re: birkhat ha-gomeil
• Re: birkhat ha-gomeil
• Re: bzeias apecha tochal lechem
• Machatzit haSheqel
• Aliyah and Moshiach
• living in America
• Re: Machatzit haSheqel
• Corporeality
• Re: bzeias apecha tochal lechem
• Re[2]: Torah u'Melocho
• Re[2]: Yissachor-Zevulun Learning Arrangement

In a message dated 3/9/00 9:40:08 AM US Central Standard Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

<< We have in Teaneck a shomer shabbos garage and repair shop.  atuop 
mechanics get
 good pay and perfrom a real service.
 
 There is a lot of opportunity for a good parnosso in skilled technical 
fields.  
 Isnt it time we had yeshivos that encouraged this life-style? >>

Why do we need to set up our own trade schools? Most good trade schools are 
run by or in conjunction with the unions, who control access to journeyman 
jobs. These schools would welcome yeshiva bouchers. Apprenticeships for most 
technical trades run from three to five years, and could be shaped around 
yeshiva learning. The money is good. 

Example: Local 399 of the Operating Engineers represents the people who run 
the heavy HVAC equipment in residential and commercial buildings in Illinois. 
There's a four year apprenticeship, starting at $8.00 an hour. After four 
years, however, the licensed journeyman typically earns over $60,000 a year 
with moderate overtime, plus cradle-to-the-grave union benefits. It's hard, 
skilled work, but at least it's inside. Local 399 is looking for apprentices. 
Why not us?

David Finch

 

On Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 10:58:47AM -0500, Edward Weidberg wrote:
: I heard several years ago from a talmid chochom that Yissochor does not
: lose or give up half of his schar in exchange for Zevulun's financial
: support but rather that they both enter Yissachar's portion of olam
: haboh.  Does anyone know of a mkor for this?  Thanks

I'm unhappy with an underlying assumption behind this question. All the stories
about one person giving another zechus aside (e.g. the famous "You can have my
esrog, but only if I get all the sichar for its use."), how could zechus be
a commodity? Do people really think that I can take n units of zechus and
give it to someone else?

Zechus is a natural consequence of the ma'aseh. I've made the point repeatedly
before, no one counter argued (yet), and I did cite numerous sources. For
Zevulun to share in the zechus of Yissachar's learning means that Zevulun
too felt a consequence to that learning. Why would I think that would take
away from the impact the learning made on Yissachar, the actual learner?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  7-Mar-00: Shelishi, Pekudei
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 5b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

On Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 08:17:20AM -0500, PRaice@aol.com wrote:
: I heard a very interesting explanation of bzeias apecha tochal lechem.  It is 
: based on the fact that it says that the earth was cursed 'bavurecha'  which 
: in most places means for you/ for your benefit.

So we find in Rashi, WRT the earth being punished in dor haMabul, and the
corruption of even the animals at that time.

RSRH takes the same idea, but in reverse, on Tehillim 96:11-12. "Yismichu
hashamyim, visageil ha'aretz, yir'am hayam umlo'o. Ya'aloz sadai vichol
asher bo, as yiraninu kol atzei ya'ar." Just as corruption causes defilement
of the world around us, so too will the perfection of the messianic age be
reflected in the world as well.

:                                                  The 'curse' of having to 
: work for food was not a curse at all, but the solution to a problem we had 
: caused.  By eating from the Tree of knowledge, Adam brought the yetzer hara 
: into a much stronger position than it had been in previously.  To combat the 
: tendency to sin which increases when idle, our status in the world was 
: changed, and we were given chores to do to keep us busy.

Hainu hach. The converse of saying (as I did minutes ago) that zechus is a
natural consequence is that onesh is as well.

Every onesh is the solution to the problem that someone just made for
themselves. Even if the solution is only to generate regret or lack of
contentment with the rut one has fallen into.

How is that a consequence? Because the universe runs to HKBH's telos. To
the extent that one does not do His ratzon he pulls away from that tachlis,
thereby causing forces that push one back to the equilibrium. To put it
another way, anything that isn't lisheim shamayim lacks kiyum.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  7-Mar-00: Shelishi, Pekudei
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 5b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

I believe that addresses and a URL concerning the 13 Iranian Jews held by
authorities in Iran was posted to Avodah.  I can't find it.  Would someone
who has it please send it to me?

Thanks in advance.
Noach Witty

On Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 11:43:10AM -0500, Noah Witty wrote:
: I believe that addresses and a URL concerning the 13 Iranian Jews held by
: authorities in Iran was posted to Avodah.  I can't find it.  Would someone
: who has it please send it to me?

I used to have a link on our home page. However, to quote myself from the
Pidyon Shevuyim page <http://www.aishdas.org/shevuyim.html>:
> Three of the detainees have been released!

> Iran's relationship with the US and Israel being what it is, the families
> of those retained do not wish that we call for government involvement. It
> is more likely Iran would adopt a harder line if the issue would be made
> into one of Iranian autonomy.

> Tefillos are still in order.

The OU therefore shut down their page. If I thought we'd attract any political
attention, the AishDas site wouldn't say the little it does. Who knows who
searches the web for the word "Iran"? I assume most countries have some
effort in that regard.

The Agudah, who maintained a list of names for tephillos, never did so on
the web. If someone could provide a transliterated list of the names of the
10 people still being held, I'd appreciate it.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  7-Mar-00: Shelishi, Pekudei
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 5b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

Just to clarify this, there is a Krispy Kreme store that opened in New York 
City, it was this that I raised my question to.

As to the Krispy Kreme donuts sold nationally, I believe they are not under 
any type supervision.

Aviva


Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 00:18:53 EST
From: UncBarryum@aol.com
Subject: Re: Avodah V4 #422 / Krispy Kreme donuts

With hundreds of Kashrus symbols, it's always better to ask than assume. The 
recommendation or viability of Kashrus certifications is usually determined 
by the Vaad (Orthodox Rabbinical Council) where you live. If you don't have 
a Vaad, ask an Orthodox Rabbi to look into it for you. The Krispy Kreme 
outlets in my area are in the boondocks, and, by the time I get there to 
investigate I won't be hungry for them anymore! Good Luck with your search.


______________________________________________________
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In a message dated Thu, 9 Mar 2000 11:11:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> writes:

> I'm unhappy with an underlying assumption behind this question. All the stories
> about one person giving another zechus aside (e.g. the famous "You can have my
> esrog, but only if I get all the sichar for its use."), how could zechus be
> a commodity? 

I'm not sure you can simply say "all the stories... aside" Aren't these stories the way we transmit moral/ethical principles?

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

On Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 12:09:33PM -0500, Joelirich@aol.com wrote:
: I'm not sure you can simply say "all the stories... aside" Aren't these
: stories the way we transmit moral/ethical principles?

Mussar, yes. Hashkafah, no. (I don't think the hamon am are interested in
such hashkafic niceties, at least not to the extent that it would affect
which maaselach make it into common currency.

Yes, it teaches a beautiful lesson that Rav so-and-so (I've heard the story
with numerous protagonists) has to trade his sichar for the mitzvah of esrog
for the opportunity to have an esrog to do it with. That he was excited for the
opportunity to do the mitzvah of dalet minim "shelo al minas likabeil piras".

But noow for the philosophical analysis...

Such ratzon is itself meritorious. The zechus is there for the rav either way,
perhaps even greater zechus. (Unless he's doing it in order to get the greater
zechus... this way lies paradox.)

Also, the fact that the seller didn't want to give up the sechar mitzvah (even
more than he wanted the money) is a zechus for which he will get his "exchange"
of sechar.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  7-Mar-00: Shelishi, Pekudei
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 5b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

--- richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:
> 
> 
> My Mom has long supported the idea nad need for
> "fruhm" trade schools.  People 
> are so suprsircsed toehar that she never pushed me
> to learn in colelge, that she
> has always supported the needs for tehcnicians,
> electricians, etc.
> 
> I am very impressed by R. Posen's trade-school
> yeshiva or what little I know of 
> it.
> 
> For most Torah Yiddn, philosophy is not as important
> as a good skill, a trade an
> omnus.  We need mechnaics, and reparimen, and
> consturction people, and cooks, 
> and shochtim, and buthcers, etc.  To build a Torah
> society, we need more than 
> intellecutals, we need real people with hands-on
> skills - yegia kapech ki 
> socheil.

We have to separate the pursuit of knowledege in an
attempt to know Truth, the unknowable mind of G-d, or
at least to know what G-d's will for his people is,
and the need to learn practical skills so that we can
operate a succesful Torah nation.  Obviously all the
skills you, R. Rich, mention and many more, are
important for for any society to exist and compete in
the 21st century.  We need Dental Tecnicians.

Knowledge should be studied for it's own sake, whether
it be Torah or Mada.  This study should be independant
of whatever career one happens to choose.  When career
coincides with the pursuit of knowledge, as it does in
the proffesiional world of the Yeshiva or Academia,
all the better.  MOst of the time, however, it
doesn't.

The problem is that the Torah world (RW and MO alike)
has created for itself an environment where only
certain proffesions or careers are considerd socially
acceptable. There is an occasional sincere individual
like Mrs. Wolpoe, who will advocate for trade schools.
But for most of us, this advocacy is  usually meant
for those too dumb to make it in college.  "Not for my
son" they would think! Oh, Sure we pay lip service to
the need for gardners or auto mechanics.  But how many
of us would encourage our children to seek a career in
the trades?  Would you want your son or daughter to be
a decorater (painter)?  Is this what you want for YOUR
son?  It's an honorable proffession. Why not?

There is a very decent living to made in the trades
and there is a shortage of qualified people available
to fill these jobs. The reason for the shortage?  The
desire by most people for their children to be in a
more socially acceptable field.  For the MO it's the
"My son the doctor" syndrome.  For the RW it's "My son
the Gadol" syndrome. Neither of these groups wants
there sons to get their fingernails dirty.  

Does this not smack of snobbery?  I think there is a
certain amount of it that we are all guilty of to one
degree or another.  I certainly admit that I am. I
never wanted my son to go into a trade eventhough I am
a career tradesman myself. 

This elitest attitude  creates amongst our people a
subtle, unspoken disdain for those of us who wash cars
for a living.  But should that be the case?  Should my
job make me a lower class Jew?  Of course not.  But in
fact it does. Perception is reality.

This was not the case in the times of Chazal.  R.
Yochanan HaSandler was a shoemaker. 

One's job should not define him as a person. 

His character should as should his contributions to
society. That's how R. Yochanan HaSandler was defined
for all eternity.

HM
__________________________________________________
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Query:  Why is it that people nowadays seem to automatically recite the 
birkhat ha-gomeil after a trans-oceanic airline trip even though such
trips are statistically safer than driving on the Washington Beltway?

Isn't there a serious problem of b'rakha l'vatalah associated with
this practice?  Any responsa on the subject?

David Glasner
dglasner@ftc.gov

In a message dated 3/9/00 1:27:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

<< 
 This elitest attitude  creates amongst our people a
 subtle, unspoken disdain for those of us who wash cars
 for a living.  But should that be the case?  Should my
 job make me a lower class Jew?  Of course not.  But in
 fact it does. Perception is reality.
  >>
Reality perhaps in the eyes of man but not in the eyes of HKB"H. I am proud 
to be the grandson of a plumber and of a shomer Shabbat grocery store owner 
who embodied R' Alpert's explanation of the reason why the kolot and brakim  
of har Sinai are immediately followed by the mundane civil laws  - just as a 
Jew shakes on Yom Kippur, he should shake at the cash register.  Halavai I 
should someday reach their level.

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

On 9 Mar 00, at 13:03, David Glasner wrote:

> Query:  Why is it that people nowadays seem to automatically recite
> the birkhat ha-gomeil after a trans-oceanic airline trip even though
> such trips are statistically safer than driving on the Washington
> Beltway?

The Gemara says that there are four people who have to be modeh -
 someone who crosses the sea, someone who crosses the desert, 
someone who was ill and became healthy and someone who is 
released from prison. People who bentch gomel are simply 
complying with the Gemara. (It's in the last perek of Brachos - I 
don't recall the exact daf).

> Isn't there a serious problem of b'rakha l'vatalah associated with
> this practice?  Any responsa on the subject?

Actually Rav Moshe went a step further. Rav Moshe held that the 
rationale behind bentching gomel on crossing the sea or the desert 
is that you go through a period where you are not on "land," where 
your feet are not firmly on the ground. Therefore, Rav Moshe held 
that you should bentch gomel ANY time you go on an airplane and 
BE"H land safely. I've had weeks where I'd be bentching gomel 4-5 
times by that standard :-) 

The tshuva is found in Igros Moshe, in the first chelek of OH. I think 
it's siman 59, but don't quote me on that. Credit the bochur in 
Passaic (and I'm not sure who it was anymore) who showed me 
that tshuva many years ago.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

"Carl M. Sherer" wrote:


> Actually Rav Moshe went a step further. Rav Moshe held that the
> rationale behind bentching gomel on crossing the sea or the desert
> is that you go through a period where you are not on "land," where
> your feet are not firmly on the ground. Therefore, Rav Moshe held
> that you should bentch gomel ANY time you go on an airplane and
> BE"H land safely. I've had weeks where I'd be bentching gomel 4-5
> times by that standard :-)


We (sefaradim) say gomel even for automobile trips, if the trip is long
enough (more than 72 minutes?). So every time I drive to New York and
back, I say gomel.

Someone who travels repeatedly in the same week only says it once, on
Shabbat, even if he's home on Thursday for keriat haTorah.

This is what it says in a number of siddurim. I'll have to look for the
source when I'm home.


---sam

In a message dated 3/9/00 8:48:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il writes:

<< 
 Ain hachi nami - I have heard the same explanation. But in an ideal 
 world, we would have lived in gan eden and not needed to work and 
 would not have been bored or idle. In that sense, b'zeas apecha 
 tochal lechem is a punishment and is a constant reminder of our 
 sins.
 
 -- Carl (looking to retire and sit in Kollel :-) 
  >>
We've disagreed on this one before - work can also be viewed as a spiritually 
redemptive opportunity and bzeat apecha as a constant reminder of our ability 
to do the ratzon hashem in all the activities of life.  Perhaps this goes 
back to the different mfarshim on Lovda ulshamra which was stated prior to 
the "punishment", while the Artscroll only brings down that it refers to 
spiritual items(mitzvot) - I'm pretty sure that others(Ibn ezra?) bring down 
to water and protect from animals.

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

Something just occurred to me, as my officemate is collecting machatzit
hasheqel: why don't we say a bracha on it?  It's a clear mitzva in the
Torah, and even if we only give it today as a derabbanan (do we?  I 
haven't read that part of the Rambam yet), we make brachot on other
rabbinic echoes of Biblical mitzvot, such as shofar & lulav outside
the Temple.

JJB

> 
>  "American Jewry wouldn't be able to make up its
> collective mind to leave."
> 
> Moshiach isn't just about those of us who are in Galus
> making Aliyah.
> 
>
Except the US (even Brooklyn ir HaKodesh) is probably above average in
the kelipos category -- and I mean the unelevatable kind)
 __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 

I don't want to sound self-richeous, especiialy since I do not live in Israel at the current time, but I am not sure that the discussions that have been going on about living in Israel vs. the claiming of America as the greatest Galus we have ever had is so different than conversations in Germany before the wars. I have always assumed that comments like these were what gave the Gedolei Olam of that time the insight (not neccesarily ruach hakodesh) at that time to predict the events that actually took place. Not a historian by any means, I would be curious to know in 1920, or 1910, what was called the greatest galus in history? Was it pre-war Germany? Was it pre-channukah Greece culture? 
As far as I know, there are Halachos about having "Kavuah" houses in Galus. What is the purpose of this Halacha? Aside from the actual letter of the law, what is the Halacha trying to tell us? 
Granted there are concerns, and there are heteirim out there. But I feel that we should be trying to avoid heteirim, and we should WANT to live in Eretz Yisrael, not try to find the best way to avoid it. Granted, the army is a concern. Granted, (by me atleast) money is a concern. There are more: family; new culture; language barrier; etc. What is a concern to one, is not to others. And vice versa. But there is a concept of Bitachon BaKadosh Boruch Hu. Yes, I know. Hishtadlus. Hishtadlus. But maybe the hishtadlus has to be in the opposite way. By going to EY, and not by staying in america, and being Mishtadel.
Good Shabbos!

In a message dated 3/9/00 2:26:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, jjbaker@panix.com 
writes:

> Something just occurred to me, as my officemate is collecting machatzit
>  hasheqel: why don't we say a bracha on it?  It's a clear mitzva in the
>  Torah, and even if we only give it today as a derabbanan (do we?  I 
>  haven't read that part of the Rambam yet), we make brachot on other
>  rabbinic echoes of Biblical mitzvot, such as shofar & lulav outside
>  the Temple.
>  
The Machtzis Hashekel we give only resembles the Mitzvah Min Hatorah in that 
it is a 1/2 of the coin of the cuntry, it is not given towards Korbonos.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

To me neither. Pretty decisive proof. However, I asked the question for a 
reason, and this isn't the answer that fits my understanding of the Rambam.

The Rambam's proof that HKBH doesn't have parts involves his proof that there 
is only one deity. There is no philosophical difference whether you speak of 
a pantheon of many gods or a god of many parts. His objection to HKBH having 
a tzurah is based on the fact that tzuros have parts.

I would therefore have concluded that lishitaso, belief in a corporeal god is 
a violation of monotheism.

But what if one part of the god is primary -- say the "heart" or "brain" -- 
and the others play a supporting role. Why doesn't the Rambam consider this 
shutfus, as he would if these "parts" were called individual "gods"?

-mi<<

It's possible  - tho' definitely NOT Maimonidean - an infinite unlimited and 
unified G-d could have part goof and part spirit, the total entity being 
unlimited and ONE, yet still have components that have finite limitations...

Lemoshol, jaust as a living human is composed of a goof AND a neshama, so
Hashem COULD have a finite Goof and an Infinite Neshoom that goes along with it.

Disclaimer: I personally don't buy this but this is how some of my rebbes 
explained the Raavad's alternate thesis - which afaik the Raavad didn't himself 
believe either but felt it was a valid alternate "theory".

Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com

On Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 02:22:50PM -0500, Joelirich@aol.com wrote:
: We've disagreed on this one before - work can also be viewed as a spiritually 
: redemptive opportunity ...                              Perhaps this goes 
: back to the different mfarshim on Lovda ulshamra ...

Or back to "mil'u es ha'aretz *vikivshuha*", which RYBS takes to be a berachah
that we should be able to master the world technologically.

RSRH (19 Letters) takes "li'ovdah ulishamrah" to be a mandate to balance
chessed and din, doing for another and restraint. Ayin sham, as it shows
the mekubal side of someone you don't usually see it in.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  7-Mar-00: Shelishi, Pekudei
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 5b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

I would like to see trade schools that studts learn torah and melcoach in one 
place

We have COPE institute and it's a start

I would liek a fruhm trade scho where there is kosher food, minyan shiruim AND 
workshops teaching skills and shmrias hsabbos and yomtov etc.

I think for many people this is as imporatn as TuM etc.  We need those students 
wh oare not great scholars to be able to earn parsnossa and still get some Troah
education acocrding to their orientation.

Umnas under Jewish auspices I think is a postive benfit to the community.

EG Camp Morasha has arts and crafts workshops

Bizman hazeh, those who cannot handle TuM or TIDE due to intellecutal or 
spiritual, or even emoptional problems, can still contribute.

Richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Torah u'Melocho  

Why do we need to set up our own trade schools? Most good trade schools are 
run by or in conjunction with the unions, who control access to journeyman 
jobs. These schools would welcome yeshiva bouchers. Apprenticeships for most 
technical trades run from three to five years, and could be shaped around 
yeshiva learning. The money is good. 



David Finch

the actual lerner as pointed out must get his zechuyos no doubt

Is there perhaps a sense of Gadol ham'aseh min ho'oseh, that the facilitator of 
a miztvo and of Talmud Torah gets and eenve bigger zchus than the performer?

Richard_wolpoe@ibi.com

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Yissachor-Zevulun Learning Arrangement 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    3/9/2000 11:17 AM


On Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 10:58:47AM -0500, Edward Weidberg wrote:
: I heard several years ago from a talmid chochom that Yissochor does not 
: lose or give up half of his schar in exchange for Zevulun's financial
: support but rather that they both enter Yissachar's portion of olam 
: haboh.  Does anyone know of a mkor for this?  Thanks

I'm unhappy with an underlying assumption behind this question. All the stories 
about one person giving another zechus aside (e.g. the famous "You can have my 
esrog, but only if I get all the sichar for its use."), how could zechus be
a commodity? Do people really think that I can take n units of zechus and 
give it to someone else?

Zechus is a natural consequence of the ma'aseh. I've made the point repeatedly 
before, no one counter argued (yet), and I did cite numerous sources. For 
Zevulun to share in the zechus of Yissachar's learning means that Zevulun
too felt a consequence to that learning. Why would I think that would take 
away from the impact the learning made on Yissachar, the actual learner?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  7-Mar-00: Shelishi, Pekudei 
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Rosh-Hashanah 5b 
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

*********************


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