Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 421

Wednesday, March 8 2000

• Re: Ten Commandments (was Avodah v4 no 415) and p'shat
• Re: Livin' in the USA
• Carl Sherer's post re "Living in the U.S.A."
• Re: Livin' in the USA
• Re: YU Confiscates New York Times
• RE: Avodah V4 #420
• Re: Avodah V4 #420
• [none]
• Re[2]: Livin' in the USA
• Re: Re[2]: Livin' in the USA
• Dat U'Medina
• [none]
• Re: MiSheberach for Cholim
• Bombing those railroad tracks
• Re: Dat U'Medina

RD Glasner wrote:

>>Now it is true that the Rambam attempts to place ayin tahat ayin in a 
different category of interpretation, which may be called mi-pi ha-Shemuah 
interpretations.  Thus, according to the Rambam, the understanding of ayin tahat
ayin was given at Sinai, so it was not Chazal who established that 
interpretation, but the Almighty.>>

That is to what I was referring.  Chazal tell us (mipi hashemu'ah) what pshat is
and there is no room for argument.

>>See Havot Yair, no. 192 (or is it 198?) in which he shows that there were 
indeed Talmudic disputes about interpretations that the Rambam claims were mi-pi
ha-Shemuah or halakhot l'Moshe mi-Sinai (which are not interpretations of the 
text, but additional halakhot not deducible from the text).>>

Thank you.  I'll b"n look it up.  You can also see the introductions to Hakesav 
Vehakabbalah and R. David Tzvi Hoffmann's commentary to Vayikra.

>>And the Dor Revi'i in his hakdamah to Dor Revi'i points out that even with 
respect to the verse ayin tahat ayin, R. Eliezer actually holds that nefesh 
tahat nefesh is literal and not damages, not to mention the well-known mahloket 
whether a hovel pays the value of his victim's body part or of his own body 
part.>>

With all due respect to the Dor Revi'i, my gemara has amoraim explain that when 
R. Eliezer said "ayin tachas ayin - ayin mamash" he did not mean an actual eye 
for an eye.  Was the Dor Revi'i disagreeing with the amoraim or referring to a 
different text?

>>So the Dor Revi'i concludes that, notwithstanding the Rambam's claim, not 
supported by any proof text, that no beit din ever interpreted ayin tahat ayin 
literally, we simply don't know whether any beit din ever did or ever didn't.>>

And therefore can assume that one did?  Would that not have been significant 
enough to be mentioned in the Mishnah?  If it did happen and it wasn't included 
in the Mishnah, Tosefta, Mechilta, Sifra, or Sifrei, could it have been excluded
for a reason?

>>Now I am sure that that is not what you were taught.  But standing on the 
incredibly broad shoulders of a giant of the Dor Revi'i's magnitude, this puny 
dwarf has no hesitation in maintaining the contrary position.>>

I've seen you quote the Dor Revi'i many times but I've never heard of him.  He 
is your grandfather, correct?

In a message dated 3/7/00 11:43:14 AM US Central Standard Time, 
cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il writes:

<< Doesn't mean they couldn't have spared a bomber or two 
 a night to hit the railroad tracks. They all knew what was going on. 
 Read the book. Believe me, I thought Roosevelt was the greatest 
 thing since sliced bread too until I read the book. >>

The question of whether Roosevelt (or Eisenhower, or Marshall, or Churchill, 
or Bomber Harris) should've bombed the railroad tracks has been kicked around 
among historians for many years. In hindsight, it obviously would've been the 
right thing to do, although not quite as simple as "spar[ing] a bomber or 
two" -- not if the bombers had any hope of returning to base. 

There may have been a sense at the time that other priorities, such as the 
German war-making industrial capacity, required greater focus. I don't know. 
We had enough planes at that time, although there was still a shortage of 
trained bombing crews, most of which had been decimated by the enormous 
losses suffered in the air wars of 1943 and early 1944. But anti-semitism? A 
desire to stand by and watch while Hitler finished off the rest of the Jews? 
I just don't buy it, not because I admire Roosevelt so much as I don't 
believe that vindictiveness of this sort dictated military command decisions 
at that time.

David Finch

Carl M. Sherer writes that most of the 6 million died after D-day.  He has
got it wrong.  Nearly all of the three million Polish Jews, 1.5 million Jews
in the Soviet Union, and the quarter million killed in Czechoslovakia,
Yugoslavia, and Greece were killed between 1941 and 1943.  In fact, the
Hungarian deportations started just before D-day.  Let's not forget that of
the six million, two million were killed by Einsatzgruppen units working in
the U.S.S.R., where there was no way of stopping them short of and effective
Soviet military counter-offensive, something not achieved until 1944.  As to
the Jews killed in the camps, 3-3.5 million were killed in 1942 and 1943.
Until 1944, the furthest allied bombers could reach was Berlin.  Only after
that was it possible to bomb in Poland, Hungary, Romania, etc.

Levi Reisman

On 7 Mar 00, at 13:13, DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:

But anti-semitism? A 
> desire to stand by and watch while Hitler finished off the rest of the Jews? 
> I just don't buy it, not because I admire Roosevelt so much as I don't 
> believe that vindictiveness of this sort dictated military command decisions 
> at that time.

Not vindictiveness necessarily, but indifference.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

In a message dated 3/6/00 10:34:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, sba@blaze.net.au 
writes:

<< >From Shlomo B Abeles <sba@blaze.net.au>
 Subject: YU Confiscates New York Times
 
 Pardon my ignorance, but could someone please enlighten me
 what problem does the YU  have with the NYT?
 I have looked up the original source at
 http://www.yucommentator.com/v64i7/news/nytconfiscation.shtml
 and it doesn't seem to give any details.
  >>

While I am often critical of YU, keep in mind that the confiscation may have 
been a mistake, or that it was done by some overzealous manager for security 
reasons, or that YU may have been the subject of an unflatterinbg 
story...oops...

Jordan

DGLASNER@ftc.gov wrote: 

And the Dor Revi'i in his hakdamah to Dor Revi'i points out that
even with respect to the verse ayin tahat ayin,....

Who is the Dor Revi'i? When did he live and where?

> 
> Date: Tue,  7 Mar 2000 14:16 +0200
> From: BACKON@vms.huji.ac.il
> Subject: Physical punishment by non-Samuch Bet Din
> 
> See the book by Rav Assaf, Ha'onshin acharei chatimat hatalmud for a list
> of batei din who were not semuchin who carried out physical punishment
> or k'nas (see: Tshuvot haRosh 13:4; Halachot Pesukot min haGeonim 89;
> Tshuvot haRosh 101:1; Rambam Hilchot Chovel u'Mazzik 8:11; Tshuvot Maharam
> Lublin 138). Batei din carried out executions such as skila (Zichron Yehuda
> 75), sayif (Tshuvot haRosh 17:2), chenek (Zekan Aharon 95), starvation
> (Tshuvot haRosh 32:4), drowning, bleeding, etc. See also Tshuvot haRema 11,
> 17). The cute one was chopping off hands (Tshuvot Zichron Yehuda 59) and
> the Ninjutsu version of breaking someone's hand (Sefer Chassidim 631).
> 
> Josh
> 
Yes the Rosh expresses amazement that in Spain capital punishment was
done.
However, I think the consesus today is that one cannot do it at least on
a regular basis

Eli Turkel

<<I would certainly not blame Americans. I would blame the State
Department and Roosevelt himself for complicity. And that's
without even considering things like immigration quotas. Ever hear
of the St. Louis?>>
Or the Evian conference? Or the Bermuda conference?

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

And when I attend the bris tomorrow BEH of my firen's son, I will start mourning
that someday this baby too will die?  So we might as well gloss over th simcha 
and get to the tachlis immediately, let's all feel bad NOW for the impending 
doom?

Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

I'll go a step further. To me, the problem is that too many Jews, 
even fruhm Jews (especially in America) think America IS home. If 
Mashiach came tomorrow, one of the biggest problems he would 
face is convincing them that they should come NOW, and not wait 
for them to close down their businesses, sell off their houses, or 
worse. Not directed at this specific poster - just a general comment.

-- Carl

On 7 Mar 00, at 20:59, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:

> And when I attend the bris tomorrow BEH of my firen's son, I will start mourning
> that someday this baby too will die?  So we might as well gloss over th simcha 
> and get to the tachlis immediately, let's all feel bad NOW for the impending 
> doom?

I'm not sure I get this. You regard Mashiach coming as impending 
doom? 

-- Carl

> 
> ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
> 
> I'll go a step further. To me, the problem is that too many Jews, 
> even fruhm Jews (especially in America) think America IS home. If 
> Mashiach came tomorrow, one of the biggest problems he would 
> face is convincing them that they should come NOW, and not wait 
> for them to close down their businesses, sell off their houses, or 
> worse. Not directed at this specific poster - just a general comment.
> 
> -- Carl
> 
> 
> 


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

From Shlomo B Abeles <sba@blaze.net>
"Carl M. Sherer" wrote:

Subject: Re: Dat U'Medina

 > ...Is our tachlis in life really to make more and more
>money so that our maaser  ksafim is a bit bigger?<

Maaser ksafim, tzedoko, chesed, support Talmud
Torah - Kneged Kulom - pretty important matters in
the general scheme of things.

>...when I was in Yeshiva here twenty years ago, a year's tuition here was about $1000 and a  year's

>tuition in university was about $6000...<

I"m paying around $2500-$3000 for my son  in a yeshiva in
Bnei Brak (which I think is quite a Metziah)

  >>>...half a million  Russian Goyim can't be wrong...<<<
>  ...If all of the fruhmmer yiddin in the golus ...were living here instead, maybe the election
>results would have been different,<

>There are unlimited numbers of Russian Goyim ready to
>"make aliya", much, much more than ALL the frummer
>yidden worldwide, and don't forget that lunatic "rabbi" who is finding lost Shvotim in
>India, Africa and where not. Don't be surprised when
>he "discovers" that the Australian aborigines are the lost tribe
>of  Efraim or something.<

>until the Russians started coming, the Charedi "population bomb"
>would have made the majority....by 2020- 2030. The "Russian aliya," which
>is almost entirely Chiloni and non-Jewish defused that population bomb.<

Somehow I get the feeling that even if all Charedim made Aliya
and then proceeded to reproduce Shisho Bekeress Echod, the government and their mates in the High
Court would pass laws to ensure that they never achieved a majority. Don't you think that the Sarids
and
Baraks would rather make a union with Arafat to
ensure that Charedim are never a majority?     I do.

 > ... if we separated synagogue and state, ......... Barak couldn't
> interfere with "Who is a Jew"......of course, then we would all be paying the same  outrageous
><tuitions that are paid in the US...<

Who says? The way I understand it (and, before you ask, no,
I have no expertise in law), the purpose of separation of Church
and State wasn't to ban financial support of  parochial schools  - but rather
to ensure that the State "misht zich nisht arein" in religion. This has
been distorted to what it has become.Or am I wrong on that one?

In Australia, (and I assume Canada, UK etc)  the state definitely has no say in religious matters,
but still supports church (and BH, Jewish) schools quite heavily. (Tuition is still high)

>...  and we would have no legitimate claim to the land of Israel in the eyes of the world.<

The first Rashi in the Torah doesn't count?
I think that by populating Israel with Goyim the risk
is even greater. After all,  if Goyim, why
Russians and why not Arabs?
(I can hear the "Shah"'s - don't give the  government ideas...)

>  ...I guess having to put up with the  Baraks and
>Yossi Sarid is the price we pay for being a Jewish state..<

Quite a high price, methinks.

>>  ...treat the remains of our ancestors in such a disgraceful manner as Israel allows?<<

> AFAIK the last time graves were moved, it was with R. Elyashiv's haskama.<

AFAIK there are problems with archaeologists all the time.

> I doubt that the American and Australian   governments would
>behave any differently than the Israeli
>government behaves with respect to unmarked graves<

The Australian government is extremely sensitive to this issue.
Every time a mining company starts operations somewhere in the Australian outback, Aboriginal
rabble-rousers immediately claim it to be a ancient burial ground
of their anscestors (a bubbe maaseh 99%  of the
time) and everything comes to a halt. (Usually  a few million
dollars compensation solves  the problem.) But
even though the govenment realises it is probably a scam - they defend
the ''sanctity" of the area. Al achas kamo v'kamo when genuine
graves - even unmarked - are found. I assume that
the US government would react with similar menchlichkeit.

>>>  ..... Madeline Allbright will be taking up the problems of the attempted desecration of the
ancient Jewish cemetery in Prag..<<

>  I understood that was resolved already.<

Unfortunately not. There are still major problems there.

>  In any event, Madeline Allbright is Jewish herself.  Maybe there's still a spark of a Yiddishe
neshama there after all..<

Unlike some Israeli ministers??
....But it is not only MA. Quite a few high ranking officials of the US
government are doing much to help preserve
our cemeteries in Europe.

>  ...the Charedi world - and ...dati world - puts in less than three years in the army.  And most
>reservists are not called anywhere near 4-5 weeks a year.<

Maybe. (I was however referring to those who wish to comply 100%). But all the concerns - Gashmiyus
and Ruchniyus - are still there - even if it is only for 1 year and 2 weeks annually.

>  ... is a lot easier to do when your neighbors are democracies like Canada and Mexico (or the
>oceans in Australia) than ...tyrants like Assad  and Sadam Hussein......<

Takkeh, Takkeh!! Shouldn't the safety of your family be a concern
when considering Aliyah?

> Did Hashem excuse Bnei Yisrael  from settling here because they had to engage in war?<

>First of all it was Al Pi Hashem. Secondly, what was their choice - the Midbor or back to
Mitzrayim???  (Columbus hadn't discovered America yet...)

>Did Hashem give us America so that we would have good neighbors,<

His reasons I don't know. But He definitely made it home for millions of Acheinu Bnei Yisroel.

>And if America was attacked tomorrow and suddenly started
drafting everyone, it wouldn't be as bad or worse?<

If, If, If....The fact is, that for decades Israel has unfortunately been a Mokom Sakono
and America has been at peace. (Even during the Vietnam War
virtually every heimishe young man  who wished to, could get himself excused from the draft).

>I'll give you a hint ...there wouldn't be any  ptur for religious women.<

Does or has America - or any other democracy, (or even non-democracy) - forcibly draft9ed)
women? If yes, I  haven't heard. (except for the story in the Midrash in the
times of Alexander Mokdon). Lecharposenu, I think Israel is virtually alone on that one.

>Whom are you trying to fool?<

No one. I am just giving facts - unpleasant as they may be.

>So what do you do? Wait until that happens and suddenly decide to go on aliya...<

Come, come now. Let's not create a panic. BH there have never been
pogroms and concentrations camps in the US or Australia and B'ezras
Hashem there is no reason to think that anything will change Ad Biyas Hagoel.

>...  and expect all of us who are here already to bend over backwards to support you?<

Now that's not nice. For 50 years Israel was almost entirely supported by Jews in the Diaspora -
from the UJA, UIA, JNF (and all the other Roshei Tevos) - right down to the small soup kitchens in
Meah Shearim.
(And that's beside the trillions of US taxpayer dollars given by the government). Where is your
Hakoras Hatov?

> Do you really think the army is what worries people? I would say it
>comes second (maybe) - after money.<

Even at second, it's still a legit worry.

> ... the AJC has a Ben Torah who is defending the rights of Jews to practice their religion.<

Not being an expert on US affairs, I may be wrong.
But I was under the impression that  the AJC
usually worked against the interests of Charedim.

>>...SBA is a big fan of Carl Sherer's posts.<<

>Thanks for the compliment :-) I hope I didn't let you down.<

Of course not. Never.

Shlomo B Abeles

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Thanks!

Majordomo@aishdas.org

I wrote: >>Interestingly enough, the Mi Shebeirach Lecholim
tends to be a break until it hits close to home.>>

To which R. gil.student@citicorp.com resonded: >>True.  But
one place I used to daven also has a mishebeirach for
America, Medinat Yisrael, Tzahal, and Tzahal MIAs.  It takes
w-a-y t-o-o l-o-n-g!

I know the feeling, but...

While the minyan I daven in currently does not publicly say
the above 4 tefilos, if you actually feel for the above 4
causes (and who doesn't - the last 3 for sure, I hope) and
daven/follow along with the chazzen (at least in your mind),
then unless you're subjected to some extended chazonus I
can't see how they could be classified as too long.

I recall the effect the tefila for "Acheinu yoshvey Eretz
Yisroel"  said in the KAJ of Jo'burg had on me as a youth -
and here I am in EY. Even the tefilo lishlom hamalchus was
moving - especially the part "la'asos tova imonu"... and
here I am in EY :-)

This reminds me of when I davened in the Shaarie Tzedek
hospital shul and some fellows wanted to prevent another one
from saying some of the above tefillos. It looked like a
live run of the joke where a fellow in an Ashkenaz shul says
in Kaddish "Veyatzmach Purkonei Vikoreiv Meshichay" and the
gabbai calls out "No no! not here!"  :-)

In general I find there is a power struggle between me and
myself and between various parts of any Tzibur and
themselves as to what should be said at which pace. The
stress on various parts will obviously be "seasonal". It not
easy to always stress the entire davening...

[Adar is a good time to give mussar - nobody will ask me why
I'm acting like a mashgiach]

A Gut Chodesh

- Danny

Danny Schoemann
Product Manager
DoroTree Technologies Ltd.
Tel: +972-2-679 7490 Ext. 221
Fax: +972-2-679-7470
dannys@dorotree.com
http://www.dorotree.com

There have been a number of posts taking the state dept to task for not
bombing those railroad tracks - e.g the most recent posting confidently
asserts.... <Also true. Doesn't mean they couldn't have spared a bomber
or two a night to hit the railroad tracks. They all knew what was going
on >
i certainly don't wish to be seen as defending the ww2 state dept, which
was populated by anti semites and deserves whatever obloquy may be heaped
on it etc.  but some of the posted remarks simply have no grasp on reality.
 The minor point is that bombing decisions were not made in the state
dept.  those were planned and executed by the war dept.  but the major
point is something quite different and concerns some matters i do know
something about (and btw i've not seen this remarked even in published
accounts by scholars who you think might know better) and that is the
reality of a bombing campaign. Put simply, the notion that the americans
could have actually bombed - and hit - the tracks - is (tragically) laughable.
 The fact of the matter is, that - in the face of highly effective german
air defenses, the attrition of american bombers was enormous (i don't
have the precise figures just now as i'm typing this from honolulu and
don't have access to my siforim) and by 42 or 43 the americans were lucky
if they could accurately aim their bombs to hit a city, let alone a one
or two meter wide target. early in the war, americans bombed by day so
they could see what they were aiming at. they were under the delusion
they should be aiming at specific military targets. of course they still
couldn't actually hit anything very accurately because they flew too
high and were too nervous about the AA fire anyway.  The british never
had any illusions and bombed at night (for greater protection from the
ground gunners) from the very outset of the war.  of course because they
couldn't see anything at night this guaranteed that they would never
be able to hit a specific target but the british accepted that as well.
 the whole purpose of the british bombing campaign was in fact not to
hit any military targets (not that they wouldn't have liked to, they
just acknowledged that they couldn't) but rather to rain terror on the
civilian population by bombing cities and thus demoralize the enemy and
hearten the home front(they figured they just might be able to hit a
city at night - though they often weren't even accurate enough for that).
 The americans were quite disdainful of the british at first - it didn't
seem quite the manly thing to do, but after their appalling losses built
up - along with a record of failures to hit anything useful during the
early war years, simply gave up and switched to the british tactic of
terrorizing populations by night time bombings (probably about the time
peoplew are alleging that figures in authority are supposed to have known
about the camps) .  thus the repeated suggestions, and search for culprits,
re the decision to not bomb the tracks evokes a certain bemusement. 
oh yes, one more thing. the poster also suggested that the americans
should have "spared a bomber or two a night". we've already dealt with
the night part, but let me also say that is not how bombing runs were
conducted.  one did not send out one or two bombers, but rather a large
and cohesive group - the american theory was that a bomber group was
self protecting from the enemy fighters.  (fighters were, and are, short
range and a deep bombing run - as wouild certainly have been required
for the camps in eastern europe - was carried out without the protection
of friendly fighters and was extraordinarily dangerous, hence the appalling
attrition rates) the bombers were required to fly in tight formation
with the gunners in each plane providing perimeter protection from the
enemy fighters for the entire formation.  the suicidal notion of only
one or two bombers being sent for such a deep penetration mission was
simply never an option. and of course if they, miraculously, managed
to survive to reach the target, they could never have hit it anyway.
  when military leaders like eisenhower made the kind of decisions that
he did, he at least was aware of such facts. (not that i don't wish that
he'd tried.  my own grandparents a"h might not have perished when they
did if the allies had gotten lucky.  but no one should think that it
was a simple matter of the military leadership - or somehow the state
dept - deciding not to do something that they could easily have done
if only they had different priorities).

Mechy Frankel                  W: (703)588-7424
franke@acq.osd.mil             H: (301) 593-3949
mechyfrankel@zdnetonebox.com

___________________________________________________________________
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On 8 Mar 00, at 22:56, SBA wrote:

> >From Shlomo B Abeles <sba@blaze.net>
> "Carl M. Sherer" wrote:
> 
> Subject: Re: Dat U'Medina
> 
>  > ...Is our tachlis in life really to make more and more
> >money so that our maaser  ksafim is a bit bigger?<
> 
> Maaser ksafim, tzedoko, chesed, support Talmud
> Torah - Kneged Kulom - pretty important matters in
> the general scheme of things.

The last time I learned the first Mishna in Peah it said "Talmud 
Torah k'neged kulam," and not all the others. The others are 
b'geder "ochel peiroseihem ba'olam hazeh v'hakeren kayemes lo 
le'olam haba." 

Even if it were true that giving money to tzedaka is "k'neged kulam" 
*earning* the money would at best be a machsirei mitzva and not 
the mitzva itself. Staying in golus to spend more time doing a 
macshir mitzva doesn't strike me as correct. At the least, I think it 
requires a cheshbon hanefesh and a she'elas chacham. Keep in 
mind also something I wrote on mail jewish a while back - "b'zeas 
apecha tochal lechem" is not a mitzva, it's a punishment.
 
>   >>>...half a million  Russian Goyim can't be wrong...<<<
> >  ...If all of the fruhmmer yiddin in the golus ...were living here
> >  instead, maybe the election
> >results would have been different,<
> 
> >There are unlimited numbers of Russian Goyim ready to
> >"make aliya", much, much more than ALL the frummer
> >yidden worldwide, and don't forget that lunatic "rabbi" who is
> >finding lost Shvotim in India, Africa and where not. Don't be
> >surprised when he "discovers" that the Australian aborigines are the
> >lost tribe of  Efraim or something.<

I'm not sure what lunatic you're referring to, but it may well be true 
that there are unlimited numbers of Russian goyim who are willing 
to make aliya. Ironically, they are willing to do so because of 
economics, which is the very same reason that American Jewry is 
staying put. Also ironic that American Jewry agitated to keep the 
US from accepting Russian Jews so that they would come here 
instead. So now we're getting Russian goyim too. Sounds like 
we've been done in....

> >until the Russians started coming, the Charedi "population bomb"
> >would have made the majority....by 2020- 2030. The "Russian aliya,"
> >which is almost entirely Chiloni and non-Jewish defused that
> >population bomb.<
> 
> Somehow I get the feeling that even if all Charedim made Aliya
> and then proceeded to reproduce Shisho Bekeress Echod, the government
> and their mates in the High Court would pass laws to ensure that they
> never achieved a majority. Don't you think that the Sarids and Baraks
> would rather make a union with Arafat to ensure that Charedim are
> never a majority?     I do.

Sarid, yes. I'm not sure which Barak you mean, but if you mean 
the Chief Judge of the Supreme Court, then yes. But it's rather 
difficult to argue with facts on the ground. If there were another 
million fruhm yiddin here, it would make all the difference in the 
world. Remember that Israel prides itself on being a democracy. 
Sarid and Co. could be voted out.

>  > ... if we separated synagogue and state, ......... Barak couldn't >
> interfere with "Who is a Jew"......of course, then we would all be
> paying the same  outrageous ><tuitions that are paid in the US...<
> 
> Who says? The way I understand it (and, before you ask, no,
> I have no expertise in law), the purpose of separation of Church
> and State wasn't to ban financial support of  parochial schools  - but
> rather to ensure that the State "misht zich nisht arein" in religion.
> This has been distorted to what it has become.Or am I wrong on that
> one?

I think you're wrong. In the US, separation of church and state has 
two clauses in the constitution. One is the "free exercise" clause 
and one is the "establishment" clause. The free exercise clause is 
the one you are thinking of. It says that everyone is free to worship 
(or not to worship) in the manner that they choose. The 
establishment clause says that the government cannot make any 
laws establishing any religion. The US Supreme Court has 
consistently interpreted this as barring most types of aid to 
parochial schools, and that's a big reason why the tuitions in the 
US are at the levels where they are. BTW - that's also why New 
Square incorporated itself as a separate town.

Ironically, I heard a snippet on the news this morning that said that 
the Israeli Supreme Court ruled today that the government may not 
discriminate based on religion or nationality. I have no idea what 
the context was, and I wouldn't go getting all riled up about this 
yet, but the implications - if that's what they said and the Knesset 
doesn't overturn it - are quite far-reaching.

> >...  and we would have no legitimate claim to the land of Israel in
> >the eyes of the world.<
> 
> The first Rashi in the Torah doesn't count?

To the goyim? Try to get them to accept it. Especially when R"L so 
many of our own don't believe it.

My point is that if Israel is not a Jewish state, I don't see how we 
can justify expelling all the Arabs we allegedly expelled, how we 
can justify coming here as "squatters" (which is what would 
essentially be left), why the "Jewish state" is here and not in 
Magadascar or Uganda. If we're not a Jewish state, then we're just 
k'chol hagoyim, and our claim to the land of Israel is no better than 
the claim of any other squatter who picks a plot of land and settles 
down. What right do we have to rely on Rashi and the Medrash he 
brings there if we come here k'chol hagoyim and not as Jews?

> I think that by populating Israel with Goyim the risk
> is even greater. After all,  if Goyim, why
> Russians and why not Arabs?

If what you are saying is that if we let the land become overrun with 
goyim R"L we will lose our claim to it as the Jewish People in the 
eyes of the world, I agree with you. But if you are sitting in 
Australia or the US or the UK or Canada, how does that help us 
stake our claim? Again, if there were another million Jews here, life 
would be different.

> >  ...I guess having to put up with the  Baraks and
> >Yossi Sarid is the price we pay for being a Jewish state..<
> 
> Quite a high price, methinks.

Yes, it's a high price. But what's the alternative? To have the Arabs 
in charge? Those of us who would not be massacred R"L would be 
on the next plane out.

> The Australian government is extremely sensitive to this issue.
> Every time a mining company starts operations somewhere in the
> Australian outback, Aboriginal rabble-rousers immediately claim it to
> be a ancient burial ground of their anscestors (a bubbe maaseh 99%  of
> the time) and everything comes to a halt. (Usually  a few million
> dollars compensation solves  the problem.) But even though the
> govenment realises it is probably a scam - they defend the ''sanctity"
> of the area. Al achas kamo v'kamo when genuine graves - even unmarked
> - are found. I assume that the US government would react with similar
> menchlichkeit.

I don't recall hearing of any such incidents in the US. Look, it's a 
busha, no doubt about it. But it's also a busha when the gadol 
hador paskens that they are allowed to move the graves, and some 
Yeshivaleit take it into their own hands to throw stones at his 
car.... Unfortunately, those "geniouses" did more to convince the 
chilonim that destroying kvoros is nothing but a political issue than 
all the burned garbage bins and demonstrations that have taken 
place over the last 10-20 years.

> >>>  ..... Madeline Allbright will be taking up the problems of the
> >>>  attempted desecration of the
> ancient Jewish cemetery in Prag..<<
> 
> >  I understood that was resolved already.<
> 
> Unfortunately not. There are still major problems there.

Hashem yaazor. I assume you are familiar with the story of the 
Chasam Sofer's kever? I would not be surprised to hear similar 
stories come out of this one if they try to destroy the cemetary R"L.

> >  ...the Charedi world - and ...dati world - puts in less than three
> >  years in the army.  And most
> >reservists are not called anywhere near 4-5 weeks a year.<
> 
> Maybe. (I was however referring to those who wish to comply 100%). But
> all the concerns - Gashmiyus and Ruchniyus - are still there - even if
> it is only for 1 year and 2 weeks annually.

There are also Charedi units in the army now, and there are Hesder 
units for the dati leumi boys. 

> >  ... is a lot easier to do when your neighbors are democracies like
> >  Canada and Mexico (or the
> >oceans in Australia) than ...tyrants like Assad  and Sadam
> >Hussein......<
> 
> Takkeh, Takkeh!! Shouldn't the safety of your family be a concern when
> considering Aliyah?

Look, we need an army because our neighbors are who they are. 
However, bli ayin hara, there has not been a war near any of 
Israel's major population centers since 1967, and there has not 
been a war that was actually fought within Israel proper since 1973. 
Don't believe what you read in the newspapers (and for those who 
watch TV, don't believe what you see on CNN). The country is quite 
safe. You are more likely to get mugged on the streets of any 
major city in North America R"L than you are to be the victim of a 
terrorist bombing here R"L. For the most part, day to day life here 
is unaffected by our neighbors. 

> > Did Hashem excuse Bnei Yisrael  from settling here because they had
> > to engage in war?<
> 
> >First of all it was Al Pi Hashem. 

That's true. But the vast majority of poskim hold that it's still a 
mitzva to live here today. And it is unquestioned that there are 
many mitzvos even today that can only be performed here. Look at 
the Gemara in Sotah 14 about Moshe Rabbeinu and why he 
wanted to go into Eretz Yisrael. One reason and one reason only - 
to do mitzvos. Doesn't that count for something?

Secondly, what was their choice -
> >the Midbor or back to
> Mitzrayim???  (Columbus hadn't discovered America yet...)

Then why the issur on leaving Eretz Yisrael except to learn Torah, 
find a wife or make a parnassa? If it's really because they had no 
choice, why is there a continuing issur to leave? Is it not because 
we belong here? 

You spend one Yom Tov here, just one, and you realize that this is 
the way that being a Jew was meant to be. Whether it's seeing a 
Sukka on every porch during Succos or seeing the Chametz 
covered up and not for sale in every store on Pesach, or making 
aliya la'regel at 3:00 A.M. on Shvuos, or seeing everyone in white 
on Rosh HaShanna and Yom Kippur. This is the way it was meant 
to be. (Obviously, I do not go with the tinokos she'nishboo who 
think Yom Tov is a day to go to the beach). Pesach comes in the 
spring, Succos comes in the fall. Hanetz (that was for you RMP. 
Just want to make sure you're paying attention :-) doesn't get to 
9:00 in the morning in the winter and shkiya doesn't get to 10:00 at 
night in the summer. 

> >And if America was attacked tomorrow and suddenly started
> drafting everyone, it wouldn't be as bad or worse?<
> 
> If, If, If....The fact is, that for decades Israel has unfortunately
> been a Mokom Sakono and America has been at peace. 

I'm not sure how you're defining a Mokom Sakono, but I think that 
Israel is less of a physical sakono on a day to day basis than 
America is. And that's without even starting to think about the 
ruchniyusdik sakonos!

(Even during the
> Vietnam War virtually every heimishe young man  who wished to, could
> get himself excused from the draft).

Vietnam was not a popular war so it's not much of a ra'aya. During 
World War II, I understand (I wasn't born yet) that young men were 
booed in the streets for not going off to the army.

> >I'll give you a hint ...there wouldn't be any  ptur for religious
> >women.<
> 
> Does or has America - or any other democracy, (or even non-democracy)
> - forcibly draft9ed) women? If yes, I  haven't heard. 

America has not forcibly drafted women, but since the draft ended 
in 1974 or 1975 they have started to permit women to enlist in the 
army, including in combat duties. There was a woman who fell 
prisoner to the Iraqis during the Gulf War - they were very hush 
hush as to her treatment. What do you think would happen if 
America ever resumed the draft? What makes you think they would 
not draft women?

BTW - I think there is one country in Europe that drafts women 
(France?). But I'm not sure which one it is.

 Lecharposenu,
> I think Israel is virtually alone on that one.

Look, I'm also against drafting women - so we don't misunderstand 
each other. But the fact is that any woman who gets a draft notice 
can go to the Army, declare that she is fruhm and get out of it. So 
for someone fruhm to say, "I'm not going to make aliya because 
Israel drafts women" is kind of begging the question.

> >So what do you do? Wait until that happens and suddenly decide to go
> >on aliya...<
> 
> Come, come now. Let's not create a panic. BH there have never been
> pogroms and concentrations camps in the US 

There haven't? I would suggest you read a 1944 US Supreme Court 
case called Korematsu v. United States. In that decision, the 
Supreme Court of the United States upheld the creation of 
"detention camps" for Japanese Americans. 

By the way, Germany was awfully hospitable to Jews in the years 
leading up to 1933 too. I don't suggest that people should make 
aliya because R"L there is going to be a holocaust in the US. 
Aside from the fact that I don't see that happening in the next 
generation or two, I think it's a lousy way to try to persuade people 
to move to Israel. But I don't think you can ever say "never."

or Australia and B'ezras
> Hashem there is no reason to think that anything will change Ad Biyas
> Hagoel.

Only if the Goel comes quickly. IMHO, by moving to Eretz Yisrael, 
we are showing HKB"H our anxiety for the Goel to come. It's not 
just me - the Gra and the Chafetz Chaim felt the same way. 

> >...  and expect all of us who are here already to bend over backwards
> >to support you?<
> 
> Now that's not nice. For 50 years Israel was almost entirely supported
> by Jews in the Diaspora - from the UJA, UIA, JNF (and all the other
> Roshei Tevos) - right down to the small soup kitchens in Meah Shearim.
> (And that's beside the trillions of US taxpayer dollars given by the
> government). Where is your Hakoras Hatov?

Look, obviously, if it ever came down to it, Private Citizen Carl 
Sherer would do whatever was in his power to help support yidden 
coming here to live - just like I try to help aniyim today. But giving 
someone a job is a much higher level of tzedaka than giving him 
money, and there are practical restraints on how many jobs an 
economy can create at one time. I don't want to see everyone 
coming at once in a panic (unless it's because Mashiach came, 
and then they are coming at once but not in a panic), and 
therefore, I would like to see people come now. 

> > Do you really think the army is what worries people? I would say it
> >comes second (maybe) - after money.<
> 
> Even at second, it's still a legit worry.

I'm not even sure it's second. Is it a legit worry? Well, yes. But so 
is getting mugged on the subway, being in a plane crash, having 
your train derail and so on. Hashem Yishmor! Obviously, none of 
those things is quite the same level of likelihood as getting shot at 
in an outpost in Lebanon R"L. But at the end of the day, I think we 
all have to acknowledge that if Hashem decides our time is up, He 
is going to get us. Even David HaMelech got taken when the wind 
rustled through the kinor on Shabbos afternoon.

> Not being an expert on US affairs, I may be wrong.
> But I was under the impression that  the AJC
> usually worked against the interests of Charedim.

I don't know what the AJC does or does not usually do. It may well 
be that they sometimes do things that are not in the interests of 
Charedim, but in the case I cited yesterday, they defended a Beis 
Din that was being attacked by a mesarev get. 

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

*********************


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