Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 271

Monday, January 10 2000

• Re: Techelet
• Re: Wearing a tallis gadol in public on Shabbos
• Re: techelet
• Re: Avodah V4 #269
• Re: How is Rav Soleveitchik ztzl considered modern Orthodox?
• Re: How is Rav Soleveitchik ztzl considered modern Orthodox?
• Re: How is Rav Soleveitchik ztzl considered modern Orthodox?
• New Modern Orthodox Rabbinical School
• New MO Rabbinical School
• Re: Avodah V4 #269
• Conservatives
• Re: New MO Rabbinical School
• Re: New Modern Orthodox Rabbinical School
• Re: How is Rav Soleveitchik ztzl considered modern Orthodox?
• New Modern Orthodox Rabbinical School
• Re: How is Rav Soleveitchik ztzl considered modern Orthodox?
• Tallis: atarah, techeilet
• Re: Conservatives
• Re[2]: How is Rav Soleveitchik ztzl considered modern Orthod
• Re: Registry

R' Eli Turkel queried (V4 #269):

<<Why would anyone today use the techelet of Radzin after research has
shown that its color comes from the dyes added and not from the
chilazon?>>

Ironically, some of the Radziner advocates rely in part on Da'as
Torah-ish and Mesorah arguments to support their practice (of course,
these are some of the arguments that were initially used against them
when the ADMO"R first introduced his techeiles).  See the response to R.
Mordechai Katz' article (Ohr Yisrael, No. 10, 1997) by R. Shlomo
Engelard (Ohr Yisrael, Nos. 11-12, 1998), available on the web at:

http://virtualjerusalem.com/orgs/orgs/tekhelet/pub.htm .

Sincerely, 
David Eisenman

On Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 10:28:24AM -0500, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:
: It seems that R. Gorelick was makpid on keaping his arbo kanfos literally in
: all 4 corners (I believe this hakpada goes backto the GRO).

Contrary to your recollection, most of the tzitzis worn outside I see in
my neck of the woods are worn as four seperate tassles hanging, not as
two pairs. My own included.


A din in the Shulchan Aruch that men tend not to be makpid on is that
tzitzis must hang from the hole sideways, so that gravity pulls them down
along the corner. This works for the back tzitziyos, the acharonim give
two opinions (toward the side and toward the front) for the front ones.

L'fi aniyas da'ati they aren't arguing, and all are holding like the Sh"A.
The difference is in how one wears one's talis. If one keeps the sides of the
talis going down from the shoulders pretty vertically, than one should have the
loop run sideways from the hole to the side edge. Otherwise, if the edge of the
talis runs around the arm, so that the side is more horizonal than verticle,
then having the loop go to the front would have it hang down along the corner.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 10-Jan-00: Levi, Bo
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 97a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

In a message dated 1/10/00 9:04:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
micha@aishdas.org writes:

<< On Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 03:21:44PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
 : Are the techelet Radziner or only the way if tying?
 
 Only the way of tying. My reason is twofold:
 
 1- While I think he was the victim of deception by his chemist, he is still
    the most authoritative posek to present a halachah lima'aseh ruling for
    the public on how to tie tzitzis with chulyos.
  >>
Any alternative explanations , since the "deception" explanation might lead 
one to believe that a posek might not necessarily be able to gather all the 
"secular" information needed when making a psak in an area requiring 
"secular" information.

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

In a message dated 1/10/00 10:51:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Tobrr111@aol.com writes:

<< 
 The Gemorah and meforshim explain that a metsuva veoseh is greater because 
he 
 has a greater yetser hara opposing him. >>
Which gemora?

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

In a message dated 1/10/00 11:22:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes:

 When
 faced with an iverwhelmingly non-observant American Jewish community, the
 Rav took a more minimalist approach and did not begin by demanding total
 Halachik observance, but rather allowed many kulot so as to design a Jewish
 ritual practice which would be palatable to the critical mass of the Jewish
 community. >>
What is your source for this assertion?

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

An article in Tradition by Rabbi Moshe Meisellman on the Rav's attitude
toward women's teffliah groups.
Aditionally, there is the famous quote of the Rav that religious moderation
is not the same as irrelgiosity.

DANIEL B. SCHWARTZ, ESQ. SPECIALIZING IN ALL ASPECTS
OF MATRIMONIAL, FAMILY AND COMMERCIAL LITIGATION FOR
FURTHER INFORMATION INQUIRE AT:
SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET
----- Original Message -----
From: <Joelirich@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2000 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: How is Rav Soleveitchik ztzl considered modern Orthodox?


> In a message dated 1/10/00 11:22:23 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes:
>
>  When
>  faced with an iverwhelmingly non-observant American Jewish community, the
>  Rav took a more minimalist approach and did not begin by demanding total
>  Halachik observance, but rather allowed many kulot so as to design a
Jewish
>  ritual practice which would be palatable to the critical mass of the
Jewish
>  community. >>
> What is your source for this assertion?
>
> Kol Tuv,
> Joel Rich
>

BMK I'm not sure that everyone thinks that R' Meiselman got it right in that 
articel or that religious moderation is the same as minimalist standards.

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

In a message dated 1/10/00 12:44:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes:

<< An article in Tradition by Rabbi Moshe Meisellman on the Rav's attitude
 toward women's teffliah groups.
 Aditionally, there is the famous quote of the Rav that religious moderation
 is not the same as irrelgiosity.
 
 >  When
 >  faced with an iverwhelmingly non-observant American Jewish community, the
 >  Rav took a more minimalist approach and did not begin by demanding total
 >  Halachik observance, but rather allowed many kulot so as to design a
 Jewish
 >  ritual practice which would be palatable to the critical mass of the
 Jewish
 >  community. >>
 > What is your source for this assertion?
 >
 > Kol Tuv,
 > Joel Rich
 >
  >>

On Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 12:59:49AM -0500, Gershon Dubin wrote:
 	What is the purpose of this new school?
See article below from the Jewish Times 12/25(?)

There has been recent discussion about derech halimud (aka value
of shas etc). In view of that discussion, would anyone comment on 
the proposed course of study?


Modern Orthodox Rabbinical School Planned 
 By: JONATHAN MARK , Associate Editor 

 Rabbis Weiss and Berman set to open Manhattan yeshiva in fall of 2000.
In what observers see as a challenge to Yeshiva University's hegemony over the Modern Orthodox rabbinate, Rabbis Avi Weiss and Saul Berman are launching a new Modern Orthodox rabbinical school in Manhattan.
The founders are pledging respectful interaction with all Jewish movements while expanding the role of women in religious life and leadership. Rabbi Weiss said the new tuition-free Yeshiva Chovevei Torah expects to recruit a 
10-man class that will begin a four-year program next September, culminating in what he hopes will be ordination under the auspices of Israel's chief rabbinate.
However, Rabbi Weiss said the actual ordination process has not been finalized.
Rabbis Berman and Weiss said they met with YU president Dr.  Norman Lamm, and that he wishes us well, according to Rabbi Weiss, adding that Rabbi Lamm is his rebbe. Both Rabbis Weiss and Berman are on the faculty at YU's Stern College for Women.
When asked to comment on the meeting, Rabbi Lamm's spokesperson issued a no comment. Rabbi Zevulon Charlop, dean of the YU rabbinical school, also refused to comment.
Although the more traditional wing of Orthodoxy has dozens of rabbinical schools, the Modern Orthodox community has had only one, at YU, and we suffer from the consequences of that, said Rabbi Berman.
He explained that when Rabbi J.B.  Soloveitchik was teaching at Yeshiva, there was little thought that anything could compete with that. But Rabbi Soloveitchik died in 1994, with a curtailed presence for years before his death.
The core values of the new yeshiva include promotion of Ahavat Yisrael [love of Israel] in the relationship to all Jews and of respectful interaction of all Jewish movements and recognizing our responsibility to improve the world in which we live. Three years ago, Rabbi Weiss, spiritual leader of the Hebrew Institute of Riverdale, and Berman, director of Edah, a Modern Orthodox advocacy group, attracted 40 YU rabbinical students who received a stipend to study with the two in a Modern Orthodox mentoring program, Me'orot, that meets in Rabbi Weiss' synagogue.  I think we identified a need, said Rabbi Weiss.
Samuel Heilman, professor of Jewish studies and sociology at CUNY, said that for Rabbis Weiss and Berman to be relegated to teach in the women's college is evidence of an unwillingness on the part of YU and RIETS to empower them in the rabbinic game.  Theirs is an effort, I suppose, to beat the system, to jump directly to their constituency.
This is clearly posing an alternative to YU, which once represented Orthodoxy's most modernist left-wing ordaining institution, Heilman continued.  But YU has been pulled to the right. The rabbinic faculty at RIETS, for example, is opposed to women's prayer groups and some see little value in a higher secular education.
[The new yeshiva] is an assertion of a more open Modern Orthodoxy, and to ensure that there will continue to be rabbis sharing that point of view, said Heilman.  This is not just an academic question, it's a cultural and political one. Rabbi Berman pointed out that long before this new yeshiva, Modern Orthodox synagogues have begun looking away from RIETS when searching for rabbinic talent.  He cited his successor at Lincoln Square Synagogue, Rabbi Simcha Weinberg, who attended the right-wing Ner Yisroel, and Rabbi Lamm's successor at the Jewish Center, Rabbi J.J.  Schachter, who attended the Yeshiva of Philadelphia, certainly not a paradigm of Modern Orthodoxy, said Rabbi Berman.
Clearly, there are people today with Modern Orthodox values who are choosing to study in yeshivot other than YU, he said.
At Yeshiva Chovevei Torah based at Congregation Ramath Orah, on West 110th Street near Broadway 50 students, mostly Columbia University undergraduates, have been studying in a non-rabbincal program part-time since September under the direction of Rosh Yeshiva Rabbi Dov Linzer, and Rabbi Dov Weiss, Rabbi Avi Weiss' son.
Rabbi Linzer, who will be rosh yeshiva, or dean, for the rabbinical school, said the rabbinical students, in addition to gaining mastery of such traditional fields as kashrut, Shabbat and family law, will study other areas, such as business and interpersonal ethics, and women in Jewish law. The founding board of the rabbinical school will include acting chairman Howard Jonas, chief executive office of IDT, and a member of Rabbi Weiss' congregation; Stewart Harris of Miami, Fla.; Dan Katz of Milwaukee, Wis.; and Hillel Jaffe and Lewis Bernstein of Riverdale. 

> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 11:26:29 -0500 (EST)
> From: Kenneth Miller <>
> Subject: re: New Modern Orthodox Rabbinical School
> 
<< In recent days, R' Bechhofer posted a press release about Yeshivat
Chovevei Torah, and R' Dubin asked what the purpose of this new yeshiva
is.

I am confused. It is not unusual for a new yeshiva to open. What makes
this one different, that an announcement was posted, and that people are
wondering what its purpose is?>>

	Exactly:   why the announcement?  I read into that announcement, 
perhaps erroneously,  that there was a niche that was currently open
which they intended to fill.

Gershon

On Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 10:50:53AM -0500, Tobrr111@aol.com wrote:
: The Gemorah and meforshim explain that a metsuva veoseh is greater because he 
: has a greater yetser hara opposing him. ...

Something noted by any parent who had a preteen who was dying to let them
make it through an entire ta'anis suddenly turn bar/bas mitzvah and now
groaning in hunger.

I know mefarshim say this, I agree with the earlier comment that I think
it post-dates the gemara, though.

I'd like to offer a second reason in addition -- or perhaps the mutual cause
for both the sechar and the yeitzer hara: The metzuvah vi'oseh is metzuveh for
a reason. He needs the consequence of this mitzvah more than the non-metzuveh.
This gain is the greater sechar, and yet also means the mitzvah runs less
in line with his neti'os -- i.e. more yetzer hara.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 10-Jan-00: Levi, Bo
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 97a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

After some initial fuzziness, some clear principles have emerged from
this thread on the Conservative movement.

1. Diversity.  The Conservatives historically have been the least
clearly defined and therefore most diverse of the three major "branches"
of the US Orthodox community.  (As the old joke had it: Reform is lazy,
Conservative is hazy and Orthodox is crazy.)  They tried in the mid-80's
to formulate a statement of principles called Emunot ve-De'ot.  But they
proved that you cannot write theology by committee, and the result was
dismal -- weak, waffling, full of compromise language and alternative
formulations.  In any case, it is possible to find under the
Conservative umbrella a person who keeps kol ha-Torah kullah and someone
who is a nominal Jew.

2. Gap between rabbinate and laity.  This is vastly important and
importantly vast.  Most Conservative rabbis (that I know) keep halakhah
pretty much as the Orthodox (or at least Modern Orthodox) community
defines it.  However, the overwhelming majority of Conservative
laypeople do not keep halakhah and, tragically, have depressingly little
Jewish knowledge.  This requires Conservative rabbis to tolerate a lot
of things that US Orthodox rabbis do not.  (For a chilling portrait of a
"typical" Conservative rabbi's trials and tribulations, read "And They
Shall Be My People by Paul Wilkes.)   Interestingly, in England,
Australia and S. Africa, where the Conservative movement never developed
(though that is now starting to change), Orthodox rabbis have been
dealing for generations with congregants who are not observant.

3. Torah mi-Sinai.  Even among the Conservative elite, there is a
liberal bias on certain theological issues.  The intellectual roots of
Conservatism are in the historicist methodology developed by Z. Frankel.
 This has led to an openness to higher biblical criticism, as well as a
view of Halakhah as constantly evolving and therefore malleable.  As Dr.
Backon has testified, most Conservative thinkers today do not accord
deference to earlier authorities; they will disregard Aharonim, question
Rishonim and choose to rely on a da'at yahid from the Gemara.  They will
stand in judgement of what they perceive as Hazal's prejudices, their
biases against women, their insensitivity toward the mentally and
physically handicapped.

One question, not yet addressed on the list that I consider very
important is: Where is the Conservative movement headed?  Unfortunately,
my answer is a sad one.  Since the mid-1950's, the Conservative elite
have moved progressively left, embracing egalitarianism, questioning the
halakhic perspective on homosexual relations, softening halakhic
restrictions, etc.  And, on the communal level, those rabbis who oppose
this trend are in a bind.  Several Conservatives rabbi I know (who send
their children to an Orthodox day school) have been under pressure for
years make their synagogues egalitarian.  But on the communal level, it
is not the rabbi who determines policy, but the laity.  In other words,
the mostly ignorant, largely unobservant baal ha-batim are calling the
shots, and the more knowledgeable, more observant rabbis are being
forced to adjust.  Meanwhile, intermarriage has become a huge problem
for the Conservative movement; here too rabbis are forced to accept
Reform conversions and try to be "mekarev" intermarried couples.

In addition, the political struggle for legitimacy in Israel has driven
the Conservative movement, with its nominal commitment to Halakhah, to
join forces with Reform, with its total disrespect for Halakhah, in an
unholy alliance that both reflects and exacerbates the shift to the
left.

One final point.  I know many fine, God-fearing, halakhic Jews who
emerged from the Conservative movement and are now leading members of
their Torah communities.  We obviously cannot know for certain what
would have happened if they had grown up in a completely assimilated
environment.  But I personally think it it would have been far less
likely that they would have ended up where they are now.

Kol tuv,

Eli Clark

----- Original Message -----
From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Cc: <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2000 1:02 PM
Subject: New MO Rabbinical School


> > Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 11:26:29 -0500 (EST)
> > From: Kenneth Miller <>
> > Subject: re: New Modern Orthodox Rabbinical School
> >

>
> Exactly:   why the announcement?

    How else should the world learn of it's existence?  How else shall
prospective students learn of it?  Also, this development is news.  Both
Rabbis WElss and Berman are well known rabbis and as such their opening of a
yeshiva is newsworthy.

 I read into that announcement,
> perhaps erroneously,  that there was a niche that was currently open
> which they intended to fill.

    Of course there is a nuche they intend to fill.  Why is thay
problematic?  All schools fill niches and advance agendas.  That does not
necessarily derogate from their purity of purpose


>
> Gershon
>

On Sun, Jan 09, 2000 at 09:56:06PM -0500, Gershon Dubin wrote:
> 	I did not ask its orientation;  I asked its purpose.

what kind of answer are you looking for?
its purpose is to train rabbis who want smicha from there;
it also offers part-time programs for college students.

janet

From where do you learn this? It's nice to spout off opinions but for this
discussion you need sources. Is this based on what you read, if so where? Is
this based on what you heard, if so from whom? Or maybe this is something that
the Rav zt'l said in shiur and you heard it or it was reported to you, if so by
whom?
To say that the Rav zt'l was influenced by German inteligentsia is quite a
stretch and an insult to a gadol. To say that he admired "empathized with
observant Jews" in whose house he could not find a Rambam is beyond me.
kol tuv
steve
DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 1/10/00 9:54:12 AM US Central Standard Time,
> aviva613@hotmail.com writes:
>
> << Given that, how can Rabbi Soloveitchik be called the father of modern
>  orthodoxy? Or is such a title a misnomer? >>
>
> His thinking was strongly informed (if perhaps even influenced) by his
> studies im derech eretz, particularly the sort of High Epistemology popular
> in German academia early in the century. He empathized with observant Jews
> who valued secular learning. He was exceedingly brilliant, and could compete
> intellectually in this territory. That's why he was considered Modern (as
> opposed to Not-Modern) Orthodox.
>
> David Finch

R. Gershon Dubin wrote:
>   What is the purpose of this new school?

For the non-naive, the question is a good one, and the answer is not, I
think, simply to disseminate Torah, but to offer an alternative to
Yeshiva University's rabbinical school.

For many years, there have been two schools that have produced modern
Orthodox rabbis, HTC in Chicago and YU/RIETS in NY.  While neither
institution describes itself as modern Orthodox, the orientation of many
of the students was modern, centrist, non-haredi, whatever you wish to
call it.

However, many such people, who in the main lament what they perceive to
be a shift to the right in the Orthodox community, feel that such a
shift has overtaken YU/RIETS as well.  Whether they are correct and
whether these changes, if any, are salutary is irrelevant.  What is
important is the perception that YU/RIETS is no longer hospitable to
people of a certain ideological orientation.  Or, to put it differently,
the concern is that YU/RIETS is no longer likely to produce rabbis that
share that ideology.

[Footnote: just as outsiders tend to assume that, say, the hasidic
community is monoloithic, many people in the yeshiva world assume that
the modern/centrist/YU community is unified.  This is manifestly not the
case.  There are many yeshivish elements at YU and they are stronger
today than at anytime in the last 30 years.]

The new school is self-consciously modern Orthodox.  If one is familiar
with the positions of its guiding lights, one would assume that its
musmakhim, besides mastering Yoreh De'ah,  will be Zionist, flexible on
women's issues, open to secular culture, and willing to work with
non-Orthodox rabbis.  That is only a supposition, of course.

Kol tuv,

Eli Clark

In a message dated 1/10/00 1:46:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
katzco@sprintmail.com writes:

<< 
 To say that the Rav zt'l was influenced by German inteligentsia is quite a
 stretch and an insult to a gadol.  >>
I wouldn't comment on the veracity of the statement but I'm unsure as to why 
it's an insult to say that a gadol was influenced by the German 
intellenstia(any more than R. Yehuda Hanassi was influenced by Antoninus)

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

From: nachman levine <nachmanl@juno.com>
> R. Moshe DovBer Rivkin, "Ashkavta DiRebi", ff. 17 discusses the Chabad
> custom of not wearing an Atarah on a Talis Gadol; he notes that Chasidei
 
From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
> From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>

> <<Far be it from me to speak for Lubavitch but I believe that the reason
> they correctly have no Atoros whatsoever is because of the the idea of
> not having an "up" or "down" side to the Beged.  i. e. you should be able
> 
> 	I don't know what basis you have for saying that not having an atoro is
> correct.  The Magen Avraham brought by the Baer Hetev and Mishna Brura
> 	The purpose is to keep the same tzizis in the same positions,  because
> keresh shezocho bedarom,  etc.  The Ari z"l was not makpid on this. 
> > know? He told me to look on the inside of the tallis
> > and find the lining which is used for purposes of
> > putting the talis on the head.  So, they do have an
> > "up" end after all.>>
> 
> 	I thought you could tell by looking which side was sweated up <g>.  You
> have made my kasha stronger;  obviously in practice they do follow the
> M"A but use a lining on the inside instead of the outside.

My grandfather, whose father seems to have been some kind of chosid
(from Berditchev, had peyos) kept his tallis all his life even though he
stopped being religious before WWI, about when he got married.  We found 
it after he  died, and I used it for a while.  It's lined, and has some
stitching on one side to show which end is up.  No embroidered atarah,
like most tallitot today.

R' Eli Turkel:
 
> Why would anyone today use the techelet of Radzin after research has shown
> that its color comes from the dyes added and not from the chilazon?

Because it was certified by a Tzaddik, rather than being certified by a
Scientist.  See the anti-murex polemics on the Beged Ivri site.

    Jonathan Baker      |  Mabye Shevat should be a month of Sundays, i.e.
    jjbaker@panix.com   |  rest. As in, uvayom hashvi'i Shevat vayinafash.
   New web page, featuring Rambam Resources: <http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker>

This is a good point. 

Perhaps we should remind ourselves that we should avoid boracbrushing INIVIDUALS
based upon the movements to which they are affiliated.

There are some Conservative Jews who turned out ok and some Orthodox Jews who 
did not.

We should not confuse the KLAL with the PRAT; we should avoid "guilt by 
association" and see pepole as individuals.  Nevertheless we an still take issue
with hashkofos of a given movement.

Rich Wolpoe 


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Conservatives 
<snip>
One final point.  I know many fine, God-fearing, halakhic Jews who 
emerged from the Conservative movement and are now leading members of 
their Torah communities.  We obviously cannot know for certain what 
would have happened if they had grown up in a completely assimilated 
environment.  But I personally think it it would have been far less 
likely that they would have ended up where they are now.

Kol tuv,

Eli Clark

Was the Rav influenced by his own PhD thesis?

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: How is Rav Soleveitchik ztzl considered modern Orthodox?
katzco@sprintmail.com writes:

<< 
 To say that the Rav zt'l was influenced by German inteligentsia is quite a 
 stretch and an insult to a gadol.  >>
I wouldn't comment on the veracity of the statement but I'm unsure as to why 
it's an insult to say that a gadol was influenced by the German 
intellenstia(any more than R. Yehuda Hanassi was influenced by Antoninus)

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

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----- Original Message -----=20
From: Meir Shinnar <shinname@UMDNJ.EDU>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2000 11:20 AM
Subject: Registry


> The proposed registry raises some interesting issues.=20
> 1) In general, we hold that we do not now  have the power to decree =
new
> gzerot or takanot for all of klal yisrael.  While individual =
communities
> have had such takanot or pinkasim for their communities, where is the
> precedent for a global takana?  After all, the presumption that I =
think is
> correct that the purpose of the registry is to register all Jews.
>=20
> 2) The article by R Mertzbach really shows that the problem is not =
new.
> Intermarriage was very common in Western Europe before the war.  As =
others
> have suggested, this may be proof by silence against such a proposed
> takana.
>=20

No. It cannot. A global takana was not possible and not necessary =
before. Now it is possible and may be necessary. (I thank the =
correspondent who noted my typo. I did meam "may" not "is".)

> 3) RYGB has suggested that this issue is off limits, as a gadol such =
as R
> Elyashiv has spoken. B"MKT, I find this somewhat strange.  We discuss =
on
> avodah the psakim of many gdolim.  If Rav Elyashiv has come out with a
> psak, say, that crockpots are assur to use on shabat (with far less =
global
> consequences), would this also be not subject to  discussion, and =
would it
> therefore also be mandatory for all of us?
> I suspect that RYGB meant was that whether or not this suggestion
> should be adopted is up to the gdolim, who must have considered all =
the=20
> issues, and the discussion of the peons
> here is therefore irrelevant.  However, here too, let me raise the
> following issue.  The notion of ein gozrim gzerah she'eyn hazibbur =
yachol
> la'amod ba implies that in some ways, the gzera of even a gadol
> shebigdolim such as Ezra is subject to ratification by the peons.  Why =
is
> this any different?
>=20

RYGB meant nothing of the sort. I do not accept RSZ Auerbach's ruling on =
crockpots, nor do I accept RYS Elyashiv's ruling that yayin mevushal no =
longer permits maga akum or Mechalelei Shabbos. That is because I =
believe I understand the halachic issues, perused the ra'ayos, and have =
come to a different conclusion. In a strict halachic issue, that is all =
that is necessary.

But, here, we are discussing a practical takana to deal with a practical =
problem that confronts RYSE u'd'imei, who know the immensity of the =
problem.

No one here on Avodah has any such firsthand knowledge!

So what right do you have to disagree?

All you may do is ask.

Perhaps it is time to organize a delegation of Avodah members, since the =
majority seems very definite on their perspective, to go register your =
protestations to RYSE....

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

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<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>----- Original Message ----- </FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>From: Meir Shinnar &lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:shinname@UMDNJ.EDU">shinname@UMDNJ.EDU</A>&gt;</FONT></DIV=
>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>To: &lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:avodah@aishdas.org">avodah@aishdas.org</A>&gt;</FONT></DIV=
>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sent: Monday, January 10, 2000 11:20=20
AM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Subject: Registry</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt; The proposed registry raises some =
interesting=20
issues. <BR>&gt; 1) In general, we hold that we do not now&nbsp; have =
the power=20
to decree new<BR>&gt; gzerot or takanot for all of klal yisrael.&nbsp; =
While=20
individual communities<BR>&gt; have had such takanot or pinkasim for =
their=20
communities, where is the<BR>&gt; precedent for a global takana?&nbsp; =
After=20
all, the presumption that I think is<BR>&gt; correct that the purpose of =
the=20
registry is to register all Jews.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; 2) The article by R =
Mertzbach=20
really shows that the problem is not new.<BR>&gt; Intermarriage was very =
common=20
in Western Europe before the war.&nbsp; As others<BR>&gt; have =
suggested, this=20
may be proof by silence against such a proposed<BR>&gt; takana.<BR>&gt;=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>No. It cannot. A global takana was not =
possible and=20
not necessary before. Now it is possible and may be necessary. (I thank =
the=20
correspondent who noted my typo. I did meam "may" not =
"is".)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt; 3) RYGB has suggested that =
this issue is=20
off limits, as a gadol such as R<BR>&gt; Elyashiv has spoken. B"MKT, I =
find this=20
somewhat strange.&nbsp; We discuss on<BR>&gt; avodah the psakim of many=20
gdolim.&nbsp; If Rav Elyashiv has come out with a<BR>&gt; psak, say, =
that=20
crockpots are assur to use on shabat (with far less global<BR>&gt;=20
consequences), would this also be not subject to&nbsp; discussion, and =
would=20
it<BR>&gt; therefore also be mandatory for all of us?<BR>&gt; I suspect =
that=20
RYGB meant was that whether or not this suggestion<BR>&gt; should be =
adopted is=20
up to the gdolim, who must have considered all the <BR>&gt; issues, and =
the=20
discussion of the peons<BR>&gt; here is therefore irrelevant.&nbsp; =
However,=20
here too, let me raise the<BR>&gt; following issue.&nbsp; The notion of =
ein=20
gozrim gzerah she'eyn hazibbur yachol<BR>&gt; la'amod ba implies that in =
some=20
ways, the gzera of even a gadol<BR>&gt; shebigdolim such as Ezra is =
subject to=20
ratification by the peons.&nbsp; Why is<BR>&gt; this any =
different?<BR>&gt;=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>RYGB meant nothing of the sort. I do =
not accept RSZ=20
Auerbach's ruling on crockpots, nor do I accept RYS Elyashiv's ruling =
that yayin=20
mevushal no longer permits maga akum or Mechalelei Shabbos. That is =
because I=20
believe I understand the halachic issues, perused the ra'ayos, and have =
come to=20
a different conclusion. In a strict halachic issue, that is all that is=20
necessary.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>But, here, we are discussing a =
practical takana to=20
deal with a practical problem that confronts RYSE u'd'imei, who know the =

immensity of the problem</FONT>.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><EM><U>No one here on Avodah has any such firsthand=20
knowledge!</U></EM></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><EM><U>So what right do you have to=20
disagree?</U></EM></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><EM><U>All you may do is ask.</U></EM></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Perhaps it is time to organize a delegation of Avodah members, =
since the=20
majority seems very definite on their perspective, to go register your=20
protestations to RYSE....</DIV>
<DIV><BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer<BR>Cong. =
Bais Tefila,=20
3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila">http://www.aishdas.org/baistef=
ila</A>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<A =
href=3D"mailto:ygb@aishdas.org">ygb@aishdas.org</A></FONT></DIV></BODY></=
HTML>

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