Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 257

Wednesday, January 5 2000

• Re[2]: Derech Halimud - & Rabbeinu Tam
• Re[3]: Derech Halimud - & Rabbeinu Tam
• Re[2]: Registry of "Who is a Jew" - humor alert
• Perogatives of a King
• re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• Re: Re[2]: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• Re: Re[2]: YU is a Litvishe yeshiva in the mold of Volozhin (?)
• Re: LeChumrah/LeKulah
• Koufax & arthritis
• Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• Re[2]: Is Kollel for the Elite (was Re: state's obligation
• Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• Re[3]: Derech Halimud - & Rabbeinu Tam
• Registry of "Who is a Rabbi" - humor
• Re: Re[2]: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew"
• Origins of C & R (was Re: Re[2]: Registry of "Who is a Jew" )
• For Lawyers Interested in Aliya (was Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew")
• Re: Perogatives of a King
• Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew" (correction)
• Re[2]: Value of Shas

As I see it he was "selling" TB as covering all the bases in a self-contained 
course of study.

And he was showing how one can avoid spreading themselves about into various 
volumes by present the TB as a "kol bo".  Which it is?

and if RT lived now, he might now have been motivated to make this point, he 
might  have perceived the TB as established and in no need for fruther 
promotion.

Rich Wolpoe 


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Derech Halimud - & Rabbeinu Tam 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    1/5/2000 1:14 PM


On Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 11:24:41AM -0500, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote: 
: Permit a historical perspective
: In RT's time, TB was not yet the all-inclusive limud in Ashkenaz it is today. 

Then why does Rabbeinu Tam (I assume that's the RT here) need to justify the 
common practice of not dividing learning into thirds, and focussing only on 
Shas? It would appear that some community of another -- or was it an inovation 
of the Ba'alei Tosafos themselves? -- did make it an all-inclusive limud.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  5-Jan-00: Revi'i, Vaera 
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 94b 
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 11

corrections:

And he was showing how one can avoid spreading themselves about into various 
volumes by (present) {should be} PRESENTING the TB as a "kol bo".  Which it is!
<snip>

Rich Wolpoe 

Scene at a Rabbinical Convention:

In one corner an Orhodox rabbi davens w/ Tallis & Tefillin to Hashem

In the next corner a Reform rabbi - bareheaded - davens to Hashem

In a third corner a Reconstructionist Rabbi dons his Tallis and Tefilin and 
davens to whom it may concern!

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
<snip> The most extreme example opf this is the 
Reconstructionist Movement (a branch within the 
Conservative movement). The Reconstructionists do 
NOT believe in G-d.  They believe G-d is not an 
external G-d but an internal/personal one, or some 
such nonsense.<snip>

HM

Pperhaps the public cannot confront a king, but can'a Novi (eg Eliyahu, or 
Nosson & Gad wrt David)?

Rich Wolpoe.

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

What are his own needs? Who is to say what a king needs and 
what he doesn't need? That sounds like a pretty open-ended 
spending provision to me. As I read the Rambam, he can take 
whatever he wants from whomever he wants. He is supposed to 
pay for it (kind of like eminent domain), but since he can't be called 
before a Beis Din, I don't see where anyone can contest the value 
he places on whatever he takes. Yes, he is supposed to act l'shem 
shamayim (4:10), but if he doesn't, I don't see where his public has 
the right to take any action against him.

<snip>
Eli

Someone wrote <<< No one wants to be mekarev a Mamzer into Klal Israel.
>>>

(1) Why not? Isn't he/she Jewish?

(2) A question for people involved in Shadchanus: Is is possible that
nowadays there are so many mamzerim that shiduchim are not as difficult
as they used to be?

Akiva Miller



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--- richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:

> FWIW, I heard that prior to being mesader kiddushin
> we should checked yichus up 
> to and including grandparents, but no further.  I
> don't recall the source.

The reason may be because of the fact that if one goes
back far enough in history (say to the grandparent
era, i.e. pre-WWII Europe and even America) you have a
situation where almost everyone married according to
Halacha, even those who were "leaving the fold" and
the divorce rate was almost nil.  Whatever divorces
took place in those days were done L'Halacha even
amongst the Frei. The Reform movemnet didn't exist in
Europe and it spiritual progenitor, Haskalah, wasn't
interested in wrecking the system yet, I don't think. 
The Conservative movement is strictly an American
invention and in any event didn't even begin in
earnest in this country until after the turn of the
last century (the 1900's)and it's influence here
wasn't felt early in it's developement. Hence checking
yichus back to pre WWII Europe apparently is enough
"proof" that your Yechus is OK. But because of the
"melting pot" assimilationist attitudes that existed
in this country combined with the advent of the Reform
and Conservative movements, it behooves us to check
when we aren't sure.

HM 
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Or the one in Warswa headed by R. Moshe Soleveitchik?

----- Original Message -----
From: <richard_wolpoe@ibi.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>; <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 12:18 PM
Subject: Re[2]: YU is a Litvishe yeshiva in the mold of Volozhin (?)


> Q: Is anyone familiar with the history of the Tachkemoni Institute in
Bialystok?
>
> Rich Wolpoe
>
>

I remember hearing somewhere, that the Rav (RYBS) and/or his Brother (the
chemist) had considered or permitted (I don't recall which) other substances
for melicha, including sugar and potassium chloride.  Anyone know more about
this?

Moshe

> exercise -- which, in its utter laxity, caused him to lose around an inch of 
> his left arm from stress-induced joint disease before he reached age 33 -- 
> involved bitul zman.

31. He was a bonus baby in 1955, and retired in 1966.

If it wasn't bittul zman, it may not have been good for his physical
health either.

The suggestion I made to the Yaakov Neeman of the Neeman Commission on
GIYUR (and which he belatedly accepted but unfortunately was already after
the commission already concocted their "joint conversion institute"
scheme) was as follows:

License or regulate the title of Rav (rabbi). Anyone wanting to be called
rabbi in Israel must (after getting ordination) pass a licensing exam
in Yoreh Deah; to carry out weddings must have Yadin Yadin (the same
way a Rav Shechuna has ); you wnat to run conversion courts ? No problem :-)
You have to pass the Dayyanut exams at Machon Harry Fishel. And in order
to show that you don't "discriminate" the above rule is applied to the
Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Father O'Malley from St. Patrick's Church,
and a Hindu priest who believes in 2234 gods and who shleps his holy cow
into the bechina room.

After all, Israel has licensing laws for doctors, dentists, lawyers,
nurses, physiotherapists, engineers, architects, even real estate agents.
You can be the Chief Justice of the British Supreme Court but in order to
practice in Israel you have to pass an exam. You can be the Dean of Harvard
Medical School but if you want to practice in Israel you have to pass an
exam.

What are the Conservative and Reform clergy going to do ? Say they can't pass
the exams ? My suggestion would obviate the need for a joint conversion
institute; wouldn't antagonize American Jewry (C & R); and could be
implimented by a simple "internal" takana of the Rabbanut here without
any need for Knesset approval.

Josh

A paradox may evolve out of the current situation...

Scenario:
Ploni is a mamzer.

He realizes that no Jewish child of his can be admitted to the kohol

So he goes off and marries a gentile.

Andnow any kids from this union are not his, and they're not Jewish.

BUT if he converts them in a kosher way, they become kosher Jews and gone is the
psul of mamzeirus.

Now back up a step.

Suppose Mamzer Ploni DOES convert his gentile wife before marrying her and  does
so DAVKA with s a non-halachic conversion.  She THINKS she's Jewish but he knows
better.  Now he can have kosher Jewish kids - just convert her kids and do so 
claiming that since her conversion is  not universally accepted he needs to 
convert her kids in a halachic fashion.  Presto kosher kids.

Rich Wolpoe

FWIW I heard similar and once posted so on this list...

And as consistent with my general contrarian nature, I think they have carried 
an excellent idea too far.

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


Another point worth making: in a sense, the entire kollel phenomenon 
can be seen as a kind of horaas shaa that was promulgated to
rehabiliate Orthodox Jewry after the Holocaust.  (This is not my idea -- I heard
it from a rav in Rehovot.) 
<snip>
Kol tuv,
Shlomo Godick

In a message dated 1/5/00 2:58:59 PM US Central Standard Time, 
BACKON@vms.huji.ac.il writes:

<< What are the Conservative and Reform clergy going to do ? Say they can't 
pass
 the exams ? >>

The Conservative rabbis will pass the exams. In fact, some of them (with 
ornate college and graduate-school credentials and strong test-takinga 
abilities) will score relatively high. To them, that's part of the problem.

David Finch

See Koiddusin 30:A

The Gemoro seems pretty straightforward, one should split ones time between 
mikro Mishna and Gemoro

The beginning of Tosfos adresses this but seesm to swtich to the Seder R. Amaram
saying we insure we are yotzei this with a Seder Limud (iow karbonos) that 
includes mikro/mishno/gemoro.  But the idea of porpotions is not seemd to be the
operative principle here, only that we are yotzei all 3 on a daily basis.

Then RT says TB acocmplishes this factor - of covering all 3 bases - along 
because it is by nature an amalgam of all 3.

There seesm to be a shift in Tosfos from proporitonately learning all 3, to just
needing a DAILY does of all 3 w/o regard to proportions!

RT wisely counsels that you can get a DOSE of all 3 in 1 place, I do not think 
he mean to imply that they are evenly distributed throughout shas!

Bottom line, I think RT is saying that TB is yotzei yedei chulom and one need 
proceed no fruther and he will have coverd all 3 aspects of torah.  He does not 
say that one MUST use TB to do so; aderabbo, he seems to say that doing so is ok
but not actually the required or even the recommneded derech.

I did not look at meharsho or others on this Tosfos.  Certainly, many 
yeshiva-leit rely on this RT, I believe I posted that some skipped Shnayim Mikro
v'echod Targum and relied on learning Gemoro only.  

So I see no reason to dispute RT's assertion that TB covers all 3 aspects. OTOH,
I do not see that he is forcing any individual to focus upon TB, rather he seesm
to be pointing out the intrinsic advantage of "one-stop shopping" via TB.


Regards,
Rich W.    


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Derech Halimud - & Rabbeinu Tam 
Author:  Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> at tcpgate 
Date:    1/5/2000 1:37 PM


On Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 01:19:40PM -0500, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:
: As I see it he was "selling" TB as covering all the bases in a self-contained 
: course of study.

Please open Kiddushin and check again. t.

-mi 

Solution: add a 3 year kollel requirement! <smile>

Rich Wolpoe
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Registry of "Who is a Jew" 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    1/5/2000 4:29 PM


In a message dated 1/5/00 2:58:59 PM US Central Standard Time, 
BACKON@vms.huji.ac.il writes:

<< What are the Conservative and Reform clergy going to do ? Say they can't 
pass
 the exams ? >>

The Conservative rabbis will pass the exams. In fact, some of them (with 
ornate college and graduate-school credentials and strong test-takinga 
abilities) will score relatively high. To them, that's part of the problem.

David Finch

On Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 10:57:30AM -0800, Harry Maryles wrote:
> The reason may be because of the fact that if one goes
> back far enough in history (say to the grandparent
> era, i.e. pre-WWII Europe and even America) you have a
> situation where almost everyone married according to
> Halacha, even those who were "leaving the fold" and
> the divorce rate was almost nil.  Whatever divorces
> took place in those days were done L'Halacha even
> amongst the Frei. 

I'm less sure about Europe, but this is certainly not true in America.
Divorce and intermarriage may have been low, but there's no reason to 
expect halacha was followed in what divorces there were, especially
in small and remote Jewish communities.  

> The Reform movemnet didn't exist in
> Europe 

except in Germany.  

Janet

On Wed, Jan 05, 2000 at 10:12:32AM -0800, Harry Maryles wrote:
> Although there is
> presently a big fight within the Reform movement to
> accept Jewish ritual (Mitzvos).
 
rather, the fight is about whether the movement should have any
norms at all.  there are those reform jews who show up every week or
every year or whatever, and there are those reform jews who learn and 
decide which mitzvot are personally relevant to them and keep those,
and the former feel threatened by the latter.

the movement has moved extremely far right since the pittsburgh platform,
and even in the past 30 years.  tzedakah, writing "G-d" (etc.), kipot, and 
tallitot are the norm, kashrut (eating dairy out, anyhow) was the norm in 
my childhood synagogue, and they taught a mixed message in hebrew school
about how good it was to have choices about observance now that we were
out of the ghetto, but one should choose to be as observant as possible.

by contrast, my parents were taught that tzedakah should have stopped
with the temple, probably never saw kipot in synagogue, thought kosher 
food was blessed by a rabbi, and didn't treat prayerbooks any differently 
from any other books.

not even looking at BTs, there is definitely a youth rebellion, even
among the descendants of prominent reform leaders who would be appalled
if they knew that their grandchildren and great grandchildren were
keeping kosher.  i guess the pesach ham just doesn't have so much cache
anymore.

> The real question is with the Conservative movement. 
> They claim to be Halachists.  The degree of Mitzvah
> observance amongst them runs the entire spectrum of
> virtually complete observance to almost none. The big
> problem with the Conservative movement is it's
> theological basis. Without getting into details,
> Orthodoxy considers the Conservative movement's
> beliefs to be heretical.  

i thought the whole part of conservatism was that there weren't any
required beliefs.  

> The most extreme example opf
> this is the Reconstructionist Movement (a branch
> within the Conservative movement). The
> Reconstructionists do NOT believe in G-d.  

reconstructionism is not within the conservative movement.  
i believe that mordechai kaplan (its founder) even had orthodox smicha
before deciding that god was a metaphor.

presently, very few reconstructionists follow kaplan's thought in this
respect --- the current motto of reconstructionism is "the past should
have a vote, not a veto" (kaplan's motto), and this is what attracts 
most people.  they want to have a semi-halachic observance which is 
"progressive" and "meaningful."  i'm not sure of all the consequences 
of this, though one of the results is that it's socially liberal and
more common in university towns.  among some groups, this might be the 
only difference between reconstructionism and conservatism.  i have 
the sense that it attracts those coming from the right who might 
otherwise leave judaism entirely.

janet

On 5 Jan 00, at 10:57, Harry Maryles wrote:

Whatever divorces
> took place in those days were done L'Halacha even
> amongst the Frei. The Reform movemnet didn't exist in
> Europe and it spiritual progenitor, Haskalah, wasn't
> interested in wrecking the system yet, I don't think. 

I thought the Reform movement existed in Germany from the mid-
19th century, and that they were very much interested in 
substituting their own services for those of the Orthodox 
community. 

> The Conservative movement is strictly an American
> invention 

Again, wasn't the "Science of Judaism" movement in Germany a 
precursor of this?

and in any event didn't even begin in
> earnest in this country until after the turn of the
> last century (the 1900's)and it's influence here
> wasn't felt early in it's developement. 

With all due respect to RHM, MY grandparents were barely alive at 
the turn of the last century (one of my grandmothers was born in 
1902), and I am sure there are many other people on this list 
whose grandparents were born in the 1920's and 1930's....

Hence checking
> yichus back to pre WWII Europe apparently is enough
> "proof" that your Yechus is OK. 

I think the reason that checking two generations back is 
considered far enough is that in most cases we can assume that if 
someone had a problem two generations ago, they have probably 
totally assimilated by now (and I posit that as a practical matter 
and not as a halachic one).

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

On 5 Jan 00, at 22:58, BACKON@vms.huji.ac.il wrote:

> After all, Israel has licensing laws for doctors, dentists, lawyers,
> nurses, physiotherapists, engineers, architects, even real estate agents.
> You can be the Chief Justice of the British Supreme Court but in order to
> practice in Israel you have to pass an exam. 

Just a correction in case there are any lawyers looking to make 
aliya on this list (I know of at least one).....

If you are the Chief Justice of the British Supreme Court, you will 
have to do the Dinei Yisrael exams (unless you went to law school 
in Israel), but if you have been admitted to the bar in your home 
jurisdiction for five years or more, you will NOT have to take the bar 
exam. You will have to do staj so that you continue to supply the 
country's lawyers with (usually - in my days it was always) cheap 
labor....

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

On 5 Jan 00, at 13:41, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:

> Pperhaps the public cannot confront a king, but can'a Novi (eg Eliyahu, or 
> Nosson & Gad wrt David)?

I think the quote at the bottom of the original post was mine and 
not RET's. 

Yes, a Navi can obviously confront the king, but unless he is 
carrying orders from Hashem, he cannot force the king to undo 
something the king has done. Note that Eliyahu did not force 
Achav to return the vineyard to Nevos' family.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

My good friend Steve Katz pointed out a factual error
on my part which I would like to correct.  I had
indicated that the Reform movement began in the US. 
This is of course not true. 

Of course Reform didn't begin in the US. It began in
Germany, where Haskala became Mendelssohn's unwitting
heir and Reform became it's denominational heir. It
was founded by a fellow named Israel Jacobson who
opened several schools ca.1800, and in 1818 erected
the Hamburg Temple where he introduced "reforms" he
had estblished in Berlin into the liturgy, which by
today's standards would be considered mild, such as
eliminating the second Yikum Purkan on Shabbos.  Women
were still seated in the balcony, seperate from the
men, and the the Tefilos were pretty much the same as
the Orthodox.

In my haste to make my points I subconciously forgot
and thought about the origins of Refom in the US and
stated that as it's original genesis instead of just
it's US genesis.

Sorry.  I stand corrected.

HM
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Since  Ein Yaakov is now a "done deal", therefore a talmid majoring in TUR or 
TANACH or whatever instead of Gemoro, could still be yotzei a seder in Ein 
Yaakov w/o having to deal with the halachic aspects of Shas.


Rich Wolpoe
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
<snip>
As Eli Clark mentions, pre-WWII Jewery learnt a lot more aggadita than we 
do. Ein Yaakov, Chayei Adam, even the gemara portion of Chok tends to be 
aggadita. We are far more din oriented.
<snip>

I would be unsurprised if a Ba'al Mussar or a Chassidishe seifer understood 
the aggadita to refer to hanhagos that are lifnim mishuras hadin and the 
ideas that motivate them. To their respective world-views, those priorities 
are what is "most beautiful", and lay behind halachah as well.

-mi

*********************


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