Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 218

Monday, December 27 1999

• Re: Orthodoxy and return of land
• Re:Kollel support (was problem kids)
• RE: Slap in the Face
• Re: Slap in the Face
• Re: Moshe Rabbeinu's Free Will
• Re: Slap in the face
• Re: Moshe Rabbeinu's Free Will
• Re[2]: problem kids
• Re: Slap in the Face
• Jews of yesteryear and wigs
• Re: SUMMARY OF SOURCES ON LIVING AGUNOTH
• Re[2]: Rabbi Blaus' "Son's learning better than a father"
• Re: Jews of yesteryear and wigs
• Re: Avodah V4 #215
• Re: Orthodoxy and return of land
• Re: Slap in the Face
• Fw: Slap in the Face
• Re: Re[2]: problem kids
• Re: Slap in the Face
• RE: Slap in the Face
• Re: Slap in the Face

Because too many Rishonim require kabbala bifnei Beis Din.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Shlomo Godick <shlomog@mehish.co.il>
To: Avodah List <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, December 27, 1999 4:27 AM
Subject: re: Orthodoxy and return of land


> RYGB wrote: <<
> (I believe that there are opinions that Moslems fulfill the parameters of
> Ger Toshav anyway, although I do not think I agree.) >>
> 
> Why not?
> 

--- Shlomo Godick <shlomog@mehish.co.il> wrote:

> What about the more
> metaphysical
> benefits of learning to society?  A person may be a
> fantastic
> lamdan, creating many zchusim for Am Yisrael by
> virtue of 
> his learning b'hislahavus, and yet be totally
> incompetent as
> a teacher or rabbinical leader.    Because he has
> trouble
> objectifying his learning into marketable.
> real-world benefits,
> are we to deny Am Yisrael the "other-worldly"
> benefit
> of his learning? 

No. we just shouldn't be paying with it with
"physical" cash.  On the contrary.  I wholeheartedly
support the ideal of everyone learning behasmadah
rabbah whether he works or not.  No one is exempt from
being Koveah Itim. We should all be doing our "best"
no matter how "bright".

HM
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

> I do not accuse anyone of anything. Do the WIG also crusade
> for tzeni'us,
> talmud torah, etc. with the same fervor as HhB?

Not that I know of. However...

Do Rabbanim in the US crusade for Aliyah, or against corruption, with the
same fervor as they crusade against Television, or for kashrus, or for
education?

Why not?

People's energies are limited -- they can't crusade for everything, so they
focus on areas that they feel need to be brought to public attention, or
where they feel they can make a difference.

There are many people who crusade for tzenius and talmud Torah -- a few more
women wouldn't make a noticeable difference. There are few who crusade for
HhB. They see a need and attempt to fill it -- and hope they can make a
difference.


> One normally determines Ratzon Hashem based on intellectual
> assessment.

Like Mark Twain observed, there is no logical (intellectual) reason why the
Jews have survived these thousands of years of golus.

The Shoah, it's causes, and people's reaction in the camps likewise cannot
be dealt with solely as an intellectual exercise.

Ghandi's call to the Jews of europe to commit mass suicide as a statement
against the Nazi oppression was an intellectual "assessment". Keeping Pesach
in Auschwitz was not.

Issues like these require *more* than a sterile intellectual assessment.

> Perhaps you would like to propose a Chassidic/Misnagdic
> dichotomy in this regard?
>

Not really -- just the observation that there *are* some things that
transcend intellect and reason, that go "outside the system" to use
Hofstadter's phrase.

Akiva


===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

On 27 Dec 99, at 5:28, Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Akiva Atwood <atwood@netvision.net.il>
> To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
> Sent: Monday, December 27, 1999 1:01 AM
> Subject: RE: Slap in the Face
> 
> 
> > The author of Nishmas Avrohom writes:
> >
> > A patient who is seriously ill and will in all probability die within a
> > short period of time may, on expert advice, and with his consent, be given
> > an experimental drug or other treatment that offers a chance of cure, even
> > if there is also a risk that his life may thereby be further curtailed.
> >
> 
> I think this is an accurate assessement of the current situation.

So you're arguing that we R"L have no kiyum in Eretz Yisrael 
unless we give in to the PLO?

> As to the attacks that are thwarted, if we look for yad Hashem, and He is
> causing attacks to be thwarted now, it seems that either He is pro-peace or
> intent on "meishiv da'as Chachomim achor".

I think it would take nevua or at least Ruach haKodesh to 
determine what Hashem's intent is in allowing attacks to be 
thwarted. Given who has nevua bezman hazeh, I count myself out 
of that discussion :-) 

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

: His bechira was only deprived him when he acted as "mouthpiece".

I'd make an even more limited statement: His bechira was only deprived while
he was *choosing* to have HKBH's "kol mitoch gerono". IOW, the contents weren't
up to him, however, HKBH wouldn't make Moshe Rabbeinu serve as "mouthpiece"
without Moshe's approval.

Don't expect a makor, though. It just seems obvious to me. Moshe went to the
Ohel Mo'ed to seek nevu'ah -- it didn't just happen without his reshus.

Speaking of which there were two places called "Ohel Mo'ed": the Mishkan,
which is described as "bisoch hamachaneh" and a second location that served
for nevu'ah alone that was "michutz lamachaneh".

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 27-Dec-99: Levi, Shemos
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 90a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

I find it interesting that the same week someone bows out of discussing the
origins of Chassidus because it is as divisive a subject to argue as kedushas
ha'aretz bizman hazeh, here we are.

RYGB writes:
:                                            But, my understanding of RYBS and
: ylctv"a ROY's position, is that they held that we follow the opinions of the
: "kefeila arama'a" here, i.e., the generals. So, it seems to me that Barak is
: probably as big an expert as anyone.

Barak is also a nogei'ah bidavar, as his political ambitions are tied to a
particular result.

Vehadar amar:
: As long as Hashem sees fit not to reveal to us an unambiguously red red
: heifer, b'avonoseinu ha'rabbim, our connection to the HhB must stop at the
: Kosel.

According to RYBS, that's ad vi'ad bichlal. When inserting k'vitlach, one
should use a pen cap -- and NOT one's finger. The space occupied by the
kotel itself has kedushas Har haBayis.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 27-Dec-99: Levi, Shemos
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 90a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

In a message dated 12/26/99 11:26:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:

>  His bechira was only deprived him when he acted as "mouthpiece".

That's what I first thought, but it really doesn't seem to fit the Meshech 
Chachmah's words (aside from Ikkar Chaser Min haSefer). Ayyein Sham.


Mordechai
Cong. Ohave Shalom, YI of Pawtucket, RI http://members.tripod.com/~ohave
HaMakor! http://www.aishdas.org/hamakor Mareh Mekomos Reference Library
WEBSHAS! http://www.aishdas.org/webshas Indexing the Talmud, Daf by Daf

But do we need to foot the bill for this?

Indeed leve anyone and everyone come to learn, but who says they should  or have
the right to be mitztareich es habriyos?

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________



When I was in Sha'alvim, the Rosh Yeshiva told us that he once asked RSZ 
Auerbach if he was required to maintain in the Sha'alvim Kollel avreichim 
that would put in their "9-5", but were not exemplary scholars nor destined 
to become such. RSZA answered in the affirmative, that in our day and age it 
is necessary to provide near universal access to Kollel (to those who seek 
it) "kdei she'la'rechov yihyeh tzura".

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

: I think it would take nevua or at least Ruach haKodesh to 
: determine what Hashem's intent is in allowing attacks to be 
: thwarted. Given who has nevua bezman hazeh, I count myself out 
: of that discussion :-) 

You're referring to Bava Basra 12b, the shita of R' Yochanan. OTOH, R'
Avdimi dimin Chaifa (on the previous amud) was choleik: "Miyom shecharav
Beis haMikdash, litlah nevu'ah min hanevi'im vinitnah lachachamim." Atu
chacham lav navi hu? Hachi ka'amar, "Af al pi shenitlah min hanivi'im,
min hachachamim lo nitlah." Amar Ameimar, "Vichacham adif minavi..."

It would appear that the level of ru'ach hakodesh that chachamim exibit was
not relegated "lishotim ultinokos". Which certainly fits numerous stories
about later tana'im, amora'aim, even down to the Maharal, the Gr"a, and
numerous Chassidishe Rebbeim.

I don't understand one thing about the gemara I quoted. The Anshei K'nesses
haGdolah is described as "ubahem kama nevi'im". So, it would appear that
either: R' Avdimi dimin Chaifa doesn't agree with this sentiment; or that he
was talking about Churban Bayis Sheini!?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 27-Dec-99: Levi, Shemos
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 90a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

In Vol. 30 # 48 Carl singer wrote:

>>And not to take any parnoseh away from any sheitelmachers, but my wife
covers her hair with mail-order synthetic hair wigs.  <<

    Of course, Carl, you do realize that you're agreeing that the fact that 
your wife wears a wig may not be required as Rav Ploni's wife didn't. Is this 
halacha or "social minhagim", in other words, a manifestation of our 
rightward swing. Are we blindly going along, because that's today's standard 
uniform, or is this a requirement and the Rabbi's wives were sinners? I still 
can't get an answer.
    David I. Cohen

Ok
Question: What if the agrieved party is "WRONG"?

EG what if almonoh X prays for the death of Landlord Y, but she has her facts 
wrong and Y really only works for Z?

IOW how can a party pray for Judgement before all the facts are on the table and
evaluated objectively?

2nd EG, what if a husband refuses to give a GET because he is following the 
orders of his rebbe or his parents and furthermore he assumes that he has not 
right to disobey THEM?   

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: SUMMARY OF SOURCES ON  LIVING AGUNOTH 

<snip>

8) To answer Richards question (and Carls)---the person 
praying is not JUDGING the man rather she is praying FOR 
JUDGEMENT!!

Ultimately it is God who is judging the man. To further 
answer Carl's question this woman has been
---deprived of legal aid
---deprived of basic rights of marriage
It is not OUR right to tell he not to pray also. Furthermore 
to prohibit her from praying for death would be to violate 
an EXPLICIT biblical permission.

<snip>
In conclusion I would urge Richard and carl to read what 
I said before citing me out of context. Since this thread 
went on for several postings perhaps people forgot what
I said....I have therefore summarized everything clearly 
above and indicated exactly where we seem to be 
disagreeing. I hope this is helpful

Russell Hendel; http://www.shamash.org/rashi/ 

Doesn't the Gemoro in Bob metzia say that kovod harov precedes kibuk ov UNLESS 
the Av is also a Talmid Chochom?

To me this implies that we can make distinctions in kovod based upon "success" 
in learning.  By extension, couldn't we apply this to whom we select for Kollel?

Rich Wolpoe

Re: head-covering here is my hypothesis:

1) *Head* covering is d'oraiso as it is ipmlicit in uforah es rosha, implying a 
woman's head is covered by default

2) *Hair* covering is dependant upon minhag hamokom, and in a place where all 
hair is covered it would be ossur and coudl be a d'oraiso extesnion of the 
above.  

3) When poskim refer to women's hair instead of head, it is imho, because 
typically all of the hair was covered and therefore there was no need to make 
the distinction  between hari and head.

4) However, since in our society such a distinction exists, we can fall back on 
the 1st position.

5) Therefore, imho  it IS required for contemporray women to cover their heads  
(eg with hats) but it's ok if some hair is visible.  While it might be 
preferable to cover all hair, it is not strictly required..

As far as sheitels vs. tichels go, that's a whole different issue of what is 
considered a valid head-cover.

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

    Of course, Carl, you do realize that you're agreeing that the fact that 
your wife wears a wig may not be required as Rav Ploni's wife didn't. Is this 
halacha or "social minhagim", in other words, a manifestation of our 
rightward swing. Are we blindly going along, because that's today's standard 
uniform, or is this a requirement and the Rabbi's wives were sinners? I still 
can't get an answer.
    David I. Cohen

Intellect is great, but
> >we have to operate with ten unified sephirot, not with just two or three.
> Mrs. G. Atwood.
>
> Actually, halachah operates on very rational, purely logical terms. My
> grandfather, TZK"L, when presented with 'halachic' questions based on
> 'nistar', would usually reply 's'nit dor azah gemora'.
> As a talmid chochom, he could discuss these issues, but as a posaik  he
used
> Arbah Chelkai Shulchan Aruch, precisely as RYGB has done here.
> Obviously, there are other HALACHIC opinions, but in order to enter into
the
> realm of consideration, they too would have to be based on shas and
poskim.
>
> Simcha Klagsbrun

Concerning halachah-  I have no argument and would not suggest any violation
of halachic boundaries.  The halachos of mishpatim have rational, logical
basis and are derived in a methodical way.  Of course, we're not talking
about Greek logical structure here.  Chokim,  inyanei taharos etc are not
founded on a purely rational basis that we can understand, but are founded
on concepts which transcend the understanding of the human mind.  We have to
understand that many concepts related to the Beis hamikdash transcend our
intellects.  This doesn't necessarily mean that we should go out and join a
demonstration.   Tehillim, tshuva, tefilla and tzedaka, cheshbon hanefesh
would be more appropriate.  We should care about what's happening, and this
should cause a hisorerus - an arousal.     Mrs. GA
>
>

Subject: Re: Orthodoxy and return of land


> Perhaps. I am resigned to what I perceive to be inevitable. I am no longer
> sure it is a bad thing, and that we should beseech Hashem to help avoid it
> occuring.
>
> Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

Dear Rabbi Bechhofer & list-   I sincerely would like to believe that you
are right. I would be happy to give the Palestinians social autonomy and
live together in peace. Even now if enough people on both sides can reach a
mindspace of goodwill it might be feasible-  with the help of a few water
desalination plants and other resources.

However, my misgivings are based on plenty real evidence that we're a long
way from such feasibility.  We're very nice and P.C. and give Ramallah into
total Arab control- (just north of us, over the hill).  They are already
bringing claims for  Katamon and Rchov Strauss in west Jerusalem.  We give
them compensation and authority on their land-  we even give guns to the PA
police.  They make claims for billions in further compensation and squander
money on arsenals of Kalashnikofs when their own poverty stricken brothers
need it far more. They make new bombs, indoctrinate children with hatred,
lies and zealotry,  harbour and fund terrorists.  Yes, many Arabs just want
to get on with their lives, but we can't let ourselves be naive about  the
stuff going on there.
I don't get my info about Palestinian beliefs from Arutz Sheva or any kind
of "Israeli propoganda engine" -  I get it from confidences made by
Palestinians to my father. He's not Jewish and has spent hours in their
company on his visits here. Do you want to hear more?

Yes, Palestinian autonomy may be a good thing in an ideal world, but I'm
sure you've noticed, we're not quite living in an ideal world.     Mrs. GA

>
> I think it would take nevua or at least Ruach haKodesh to
> determine what Hashem's intent is in allowing attacks to be
> thwarted. Given who has nevua bezman hazeh, I count myself out
> of that discussion :-)

I don't have nevuah either, but I would think that pure "ahavas Israel" has
a lot to do with it!  We can all emulate that.
Concerning danger-  who is to determine where is "safe" in Eretz Israel?  Is
Yehudah and Shomron less safe than, let's say,  Machaneh Yehuda (the open
market in Jerusalem) or the number 26 bus?  They're all targets.  Is it
safer to stay here or to live in New York or Chicago where you can't send
your kids out at night in many neighbourhoods? ( In terms of natural
threats, how about Turkey, anywhere on a fault line, flood or monsoon
country etc? Should they all move "al pi sechel" or can we hear of their
tragedies with compassion?)  At least the people in Yehuda and Shomron have
a real Jewish reason for living there, and their settlement is not actually
hurting any Arabs, believe it or not.  The government promised protection.
Our mere presence anywhere between the Med and the Yarden is seen as
sufficient provocation.   Mrs. G Atwood. >

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Carl M. Sherer <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
> To: Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>;
> <avodah@aishdas.org>
> Sent: Monday, December 27, 1999 6:21 AM
> Subject: Re: Slap in the Face
>
>
> > So you're arguing that we R"L have no kiyum in Eretz Yisrael
> > unless we give in to the PLO?
> >
>
> It is certainly possible, yes.
>
> > > As to the attacks that are thwarted, if we look for yad Hashem, and He
> is
> > > causing attacks to be thwarted now, it seems that either He is
pro-peace
> or
> > > intent on "meishiv da'as Chachomim achor".
> >
> > I think it would take nevua or at least Ruach haKodesh to
> > determine what Hashem's intent is in allowing attacks to be
> > thwarted. Given who has nevua bezman hazeh, I count myself out
> > of that discussion :-)
> >
>
> Note that you and R' Akiva Atwood are coming at this from two totally
> different sides. That was a response to his perspective, not yours.
>
> Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
> Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
> http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org
>

RSZA's psak was, obviously, yes, Klal Yisroel needs to foot the bill.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: <richard_wolpoe@ibi.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, December 27, 1999 7:43 AM
Subject: Re[2]: problem kids


> But do we need to foot the bill for this?
>
> Indeed leve anyone and everyone come to learn, but who says they should
or have
> the right to be mitztareich es habriyos?
>
> Rich Wolpoe
>

----- Original Message -----
From: Akiva Atwood <atwood@netvision.net.il>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, December 27, 1999 6:11 AM
Subject: RE: Slap in the Face


> Do Rabbanim in the US crusade for Aliyah, or against corruption, with the
> same fervor as they crusade against Television, or for kashrus, or for
> education?
>

For Aliyah, no.

Against corruption, yes.

The keynote speaker at the Midwest Agudah convention this past Motzo'ei
Shabbos spoke about Problem Kids, the Internet (BTW, the stance is currently
far more lenient than it was), Talking in Chazaras Ha'Shatz, and he closed
with an extraordinary SMAG about dishonesty and corruption.

Holistic.

> > One normally determines Ratzon Hashem based on intellectual
> > assessment.
>
> Like Mark Twain observed, there is no logical (intellectual) reason why
the
> Jews have survived these thousands of years of golus.
>

There is a logical (intellectual) reason, that MT could not possibly
perceive: Torah she'be'al Peh, Halacha specifically.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

> >
> > Note that you and R' Akiva Atwood are coming at this from 
> two totally
> > different sides. That was a response to his perspective, not yours.

Just curious -- which two sides?

Akiva


===========================
Akiva Atwood                 
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274  

You are arguing the "le'ma'alah min ha'seichel".

R' Carl is arguing based on seichel.

So it seems, at least, to me.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Akiva Atwood <atwood@netvision.net.il>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, December 27, 1999 8:46 AM
Subject: RE: Slap in the Face


> > >
> > > Note that you and R' Akiva Atwood are coming at this from 
> > two totally
> > > different sides. That was a response to his perspective, not yours.
> 
> Just curious -- which two sides?
> 
> Akiva
> 
> 
> ===========================
> Akiva Atwood                 
> POB 27515
> Jerusalem, Israel 91274  
> 

*********************


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