Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 210

Thursday, December 23 1999

• RE: Net Access
• Re: Net Access
• Re: Avodah V4 #208
• Re: Net Access
• Re: Beth Din
• Working in Computers (was Re: Is Kollel for the Elite)
• Re: Avodah V4 #208
• Re: Child Raising Issues (was Re: Problem kids)
• Re: Kollel and sustenance
• Re: Net Access
• Re: Working in Computers (was Re: Is Kollel for the Elite)
• Re: cooking the books
• Re: Child Raising Issues (was Re: Problem kids)
• Re: a humble pixel
• Re: Minors and kiddush wine
• king spending money
• school streams
• Minors and kiddush wine

No, I *meant* firewall -- that's what Norton calls it on their box. It
prevents unauthorized access to the internet by stopping calls to winsock,
which any internet program would have to do.

Akiva



===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274




> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-avodah@aishdas.org [mailto:owner-avodah@aishdas.org]On
> Behalf Of Micha Berger
> Sent: 23 December 1999 14:41
> To: avodah@aishdas.org
> Subject: Re: Net Access
>
>
> : The simple answer: you need a firewall. Norton sells one as
> part of their
> : internet utility package.
>
> I don't think "firewall" is the right term, as that has to do
> with routers,
> and controlling network traffic. For example, my firm
> installed a firewall
> to present any incoming connections of any sort except web,
> email and ftp
> access to a particular gateway machine.
>
> I think you're talking about filters, and the original poster
> said he didn't
> think they were sufficient.
>
> They certainly do nothing toward eliminating bitul z'man.
>
> -mi
>
> --
> Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 23-Dec-99:
> Chamishi, Vayechi
> micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H
> http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 88a
> For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.
>

Gershon Dubin wrote:



> audience for their advertising.  This changes the rules:  if you don't
> have to pay for access,  what's to stop a savvy kid from setting him/her
> self up?  


What operating system? I'm going to go out on a limb here, and guess
Windows 95 or 98. If so, try this:

http://download.cnet.com/downloads/0-10105-100-878114.html?tag=st.dl.10001_103_1.lst.titledetail

It'll password protect individual programs, so the kids couldn't dial the
modem without you being there.

If that's not what you want, let me know off-list and I'll find you
something more suitable.



---sam

It is very hard for me to believe that the RCA in its pre-nup nusach, did
not consult attorneys. The assumption expressed that the RCA did not have 
attorney input is, I suspect, naive.
 --ef

barring any of these ideas, you can always hide the power cord for the modem.

this question was asked on another list, and someone said:

Check out the Cyber Patrol?-type applications.  That's another feature
that they support (in addition to blocking domains, etc).  You can create
users and specify when they can and can't use the internet.  I remember it
being described as for e.g.  babysitter can use it after 10pm when kids
are asleep but not before whereas kids can only do it after h/w between 3
and 6.  

Janet

----- Original Message -----
From: Kenneth G Miller <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 11:55 PM
Subject: re: Beth Din


> .
>
>
>
> Shoshana L. Boublil writes <<< if you have proof, you can present it at a
> reliable Beith Din -- and there are many such out there, and make the
> issue public. >>> I adress the following not specifically to her, but to
> the many people who have written that we should be careful to find an
> honest rabbi and beis din, and that we should avoid the unscrupulous
> ones.
>
>
> I UNDERSTAND THAT FOR VARIOUS REASONS, THOSE WHO ARE "IN THE KNOW" ARE
> UNABLE TO TELL US WHAT THEY KNOW. BUT PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT THE RESULT
> OF THIS IS THAT THE REST OF US ARE WANDERING IN THE DARK, AND WE HAVE NO
> CHOICE BUT TO FOLLOW FAMOUS RABBIS WHOSE PUBLIC REPUTATIONS ARE STILL
> GOOD.
>
> THAT INCLUDES EVERYONE EXCEPT RABBIS RACKMAN AND MORGENSTERN. NO ONE ELSE
> HAS GOTTEN THE BAD PRESS THAT THEY HAVE GOTTEN. IF A PERSON GOES TO A
> BEIS DIN WHICH INCLUDES NEITHER OF THOSE TWO PEOPLE, ON WHAT BASIS WOULD
> HE SUSPECT THEM OF BEING UNRELIABLE?

    As it happens, as one who is in the know, I can loudly state that R.
Rackman is one of the most honest and "untouchable" rabbis in the world.
His "bad press" is the result of a controversial shita he has; not an
impugnation of his character.

On 23 Dec 99, at 6:17, Gershon Dubin wrote:

> On Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:57:15 +0200 "Carl M. Sherer"
> <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il> writes:
> 
> << Here if the Aguda issued such a call they would be put into cherem in
> many circles. >>
> 
> 	Pardon my ignorance,  but by whom for what?

By certain elements who do not consider the Aguda right wing 
enough who would suggest that having anything to do with 
computers or making a parnassa in anything other than Chinuch is 
yehareg v'al yaavor.

The following is a translation of a wall poster that appeared in many 
Charedi neighborhoods in Yerushalayim about this time last year:

Great Danger!
Declaration from the g'dolai (great rabbis) and lights of the 
generation On the matter of the halachic and educational problems 
of computers

Lately there have been new corruptions that weren't revealed to our
forefathers, and the yetzer harah (evil inclination) comes to enter
through the back door -- by way of the home computer -- deadly 
poison, that threatens to topple all the holiness of the Jewish 
home, our future and the future of our children. Everyone is 
obligated to do everything within his ability to burn this sickness 
(nega) from our midst.

The computer includes within it many dangers:
A. Internet - also for purposes of business - one won't see and won't
find in the homes of Israel, and it includes deadly poison that every 
one who comes to it can't return, and everyone who uses it enters 
himself into great nisyonot (spiritual tests.) Already, many homes 
in Israel have been torn and destroyed at the hands of introducing 
the Internet into homes for business purposes, and they weren't 
able to stand up to the nisayon (spiritual test.) Also, in businesses, 
it is forbidden to use the Internet. If it is absolutely impossible to do 
without it, then -- if they can use it without failing to see disgusting 
sights (marot shahatz) and can properly oversee that they won't 
use it in the name of curiosity (during work or after) -- we
don't have it within our power to prohibit (ain b'kohanu l'asur.)
Anyway, even if it is not done purposely, it is possible to fail by
seeing disgusting sights (marot shahatz) while searching on the 
Internet -- there is no permission for this, even for earning a living 
(ain shoom heiter b'davar gam l'ztorech parnasa.)

B. The most stringent harem - permanent harem (harem l'olam) -- 
that all g'dolei of Israel are declaring that will destroy humanity - 
that is television, which falls in all validity on the computer that is
configured for viewing television. There is a fully valid prohibition on 
movies (even censored and reviewed ones) that are seen on the CD 
of a computer or on a video - they are the essence of the filth of 
television itself. 

As it is already entirely clear that it is impossible to censure movies
in any way, the great parental test -- that also applies if one is 
used to seeing movies that are "kiilu (as if)" they are clean -- their 
end is to be tempted and dragged...down to the diota tachtona. 
Therefore, there is a total obligation on parents and educators to be 
appalled, the notion of a "movie" is trafa and must not be touched 
(muksta mahmat mayus) and every type of movie should not be 
viewed, including movies of plays and evenings of song.

C. Every CD - including scientific, education, encyclopedic, graphic,
collections of pictures, contain a serious danger, requiring certified
review about their contents and their collections of pictures that 
they shouldn't enter into the homes of Israel or educational 
institutions -- pictures that are obscene (pritzut,) deal with idol 
worship (avoda zara), heresy (kfira), bloodshed, (shfihut damim,) 
and other miscellaneous subjects. 

D. Entry of computer games - these represent the most serious 
danger, especially for youth, there are many computer games that 
have harmful things and burn as fire: ugly pictures, movie clips, 
violence, other horrible messages -- even those that are censored 
or reviewed by the haredi community -- and they should not be 
brought into the homes of Israel.

The great spiritual test proves that even clean computer games, 
that have no negative messages, cause addiction, stupify the brain, 
and cause the destruction of education -- not only do they cause a 
draw to games and CDs that are disqualified -- and it is very 
worthwhile that they won't be available at home, ki b'nafsham 
hadavar! (hard to translate this Biblical concept, but it essentially 
means that we must be careful because we are dealing with our 
souls.) 

Of course, one who does not enter a computer into his home, saves
himself and members of his household from spiritual tests, 
temptations, and serious obstacles, and also helps him raise his 
children to Torah and fear of Hashem in holy purity.

The letter is signed by:

E.L Steinman
Michal Lipkovitch
Shmuel Orbach
Shmuel HaLevi Vazner
S. Nisim Karlitz
Haim Pinhas Sheinberg
Moshe Yehoshua
Yochanan Sofer
Avraham Yaakov Friedman
Yissacher Dov
Avraham Danziger
Natan Gestetner
Eli. Shmuel Shmerler
Ovadia Yosef
Shimon Badani
Moshe Tzedaka

[Translation not mine - C.S.]

Since many of the names on that list are truly Gdolim (not always 
the case on wall posters in Yerushalayim), I personally took 
comfort that they did not ban the net outright. There was an 
attempt to do that last spring but it failed - most of the Gdolim 
refused to do it. But we constantly see notices about how at least 
you should not have a computer in your home, etc.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

I have no idea if the RCA consulted atorneys or not.  I do know that the
form is flawed for the reasons I have stated.


----- Original Message -----
From: Emanuel Feldman <emanuel@photonet.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Cc: <avodah-digest@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 1999 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: Avodah V4 #208


> It is very hard for me to believe that the RCA in its pre-nup nusach, did
> not consult attorneys. The assumption expressed that the RCA did not have
> attorney input is, I suspect, naive.
>  --ef
>
>

In a message dated 12/23/99 9:16:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il writes:

<< 
 That is NOT because I don't trust my kids. I trust my kids until they 
 prove to me that they're not worthy of that trust. That doesn't mean 
 I have to be an accomplice in letting them get into situations where 
 their judgment will be tested.  >>
An alternative viewpoint is that if you don't let someone get into a 
situation where their judgment will be tested(ie give them a chance to fail 
or succeed) while they are still in a somewhat controlled environment, they 
may not learn how to deal with such situations when they're completely on 
their own.

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

RS Brizel wrote:

>>Rav Yitzchak Breitowitz has pointed out elsewhere in a shiur on the 
Darchei Noam website that in Europe Kollel was for the elite.>>

The phrase "in Europe" is often used to refer to some unified mythological 
place in which anyone's vague rosy memories reflect the universal practice. 
 Europe was and is a very big place.  There were many different communities 
and even in each community there were different practices.  Germany was in 
Europe but was very different from Poland and Hungary/Czechoslavakia.  
There were also different eras.  Pre-Volozhin there were not really any 
yeshivas.

In many places, not only was kollel for the elite but so was yeshiva.  
Children learned with the town rav until the age of 10-13 and then went to 
work.  The main yeshivas had only a few boys from each town.  The rest of 
the population never went to yeshiva.

Even if kollel was for the elite, many yungerleit lived with their 
fathers-in-law while learning.  Their father-in-law supported them for many 
years in an unofficial kollel.

Just because (and if) "in Europe" kollel was for the elite, does not mean 
that it was right or is relevant for today.  First of all, sociologically, 
things are VERY different.  Second, look what happened in Europe.  Right 
before WWII there was a huge percentage of non-frum Jews, I think the 
majority but have no proof.  Maybe this was because kollel was for the 
elite.  Maybe not.

My point is simple.  Why is it relevant whether kollel was or was not for 
the elite in Europe?

RG Dubin wrote:

>>Does anyone have any suggestion,  short of unplugging the computer or at 
least the modem, for preventing unsupervised access to the net for younger 
children.>>

My plan is to keep the computer in the living room where it is impossible 
for anyone to surf the web without everyone else seeing.

On Thu, 23 Dec 1999 17:04:51 +0200 "Carl M. Sherer"
<cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il> writes:

<<By certain elements who do not consider the Aguda right wing 
> enough who would suggest that having anything to do with 
> computers or making a parnassa in anything other than Chinuch is 
> yehareg v'al yaavor.>>

	The American Aguda position,  at least as voiced publicly by one of the
members of the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah,  is virtually the same.  Not
yehareg ve'al ya'avor maybe,  but certainly an issur chamur.  I am
certain that there are strong elements within the organization who
disagree,  but nobody is going to buck this Rosh Yeshiva.

<<The following is a translation of a wall poster that appeared in many 
> Charedi neighborhoods in Yerushalayim about this time last year:>>

<snip>

<< The computer includes within it many dangers:
> A. Internet - also for purposes of business - one won't see and >>

<snip>

	So far this is consistent with the American Agudah position as
described.

<< B. The most stringent harem - permanent harem (harem l'olam) -- 
> that all g'dolei of Israel are declaring that will destroy humanity
that is television, which falls in all validity on the computer that is
configured for viewing television.>>

<snip>

	I don't believe this was explicitly addressed but is, again,  certainly
consistent with well known positions on TV.

 
<<C. Every CD - including scientific, education, encyclopedic, 
> graphic collections of pictures, contain a serious danger, requiring 
> certified>>

<snip>

	Replace CD with magazine or book and I think  we can all agree on the
need for some censorship. Why should CD's be different?

<<D. Entry of computer games - these represent the most serious 
> danger, especially for youth, there are many computer games>>

<snip>

	Again,  some censorship is indicated.  However,  I think here Americans
have the idea that "boys will be boys" and need to play which I
understand is strongly discouraged in certain Chareidi circles in Israel.
 The next quote is fairly clear on this:

<snip>

<<The great spiritual test proves that even clean computer games, 
> that have no negative messages, cause addiction, stupify the brain, 
> and cause the destruction of education>>

<snip>

	Put in basketball and it reads the same.

<snip>


<<Since many of the names on that list are truly Gdolim (not always 
> the case on wall posters in Yerushalayim),>>

	It is an unfortunate fact of life that not all posters/kol koreh's etc.
are in fact signed by those whose signatures appear.  I know nothing
about this particular poster or the position of these Gedolim,  but some
skepticism is in order.

Gershon 

RS Carmy wrote:

>>Since you've already confessed ownership in public, isn't this a bit like
closing the bag after the beans are spilled? Perhaps the interviewer
doesn't mind your owning the books as long as you know how to hide them
when appropriate. In that case it would be like cooking the beans.>>

Even though we pasken that chavra chavra is leih, I highly doubt that an 
internet discussion will get all the way to a principal of this type of 
yeshiva, which I haven't named.

Besides, it is all academic because I have no intention of hiding any 
sefarim.  If the yeshiva doesn't want my son because of them then I 
probably don't want the yeshiva either.

On 23 Dec 99, at 10:15, Joelirich@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 12/23/99 9:16:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
> cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il writes:
> 
> << 
>  That is NOT because I don't trust my kids. I trust my kids until they 
>  prove to me that they're not worthy of that trust. That doesn't mean 
>  I have to be an accomplice in letting them get into situations where 
>  their judgment will be tested.  >>
> An alternative viewpoint is that if you don't let someone get into a 
> situation where their judgment will be tested(ie give them a chance to fail 
> or succeed) while they are still in a somewhat controlled environment, they 
> may not learn how to deal with such situations when they're completely on 
> their own.

Yes, but I can control the tests and gradually let them do more and 
more responsible things. For example:

1. Let them come straight home from school by themselves on the 
school van.
2. Let them come home from school by themselves on the public 
busses.
3. Let them go somewhere on the way home and then come home 
from school by themselves on the public busses.
4. Let them go somewhere after school and then come home by a 
given time of night by themselves on the public busses. 

And so on and so on. In other words, I don't have to let the leash 
(bad connotation but you know what I mean) loose all at once. It's 
one thing for me to let my daughter go to the mall with a couple of 
girlfriends knowing she may run into someone she knows that I 
would rather she not see. It's another for me to let my son go and 
meet someone that I think will put him into a difficult situation. Of 
course, if s/he sneaks around then all bets are off until they regain 
trust.

This is actually easier to do in Israel, where you worry less about 
things like your kid getting mugged R"L.

Same idea with the net. Let the kid have an email account. Let 
them surf the net for a school project. Let them surf the net to shop 
for clothes (likely to work better with girls :-). Gradually come into 
the room less and less but still maintain a nichnas v'yotzei 
presence until you feel comfortable that if s/he does accidentally 
end up at a site which is inappropriate s/he will hit the back button 
on the browser.

In practice, I think you need to be a lot more flexible and think 
more on your feet, but I don't think it's insurmountable with most 
kids.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

In a message dated 12/23/99 7:46:39 AM US Central Standard Time, 
gatwood@netvision.net.il writes:

<< Are we only pixels in G-d's imagination? >>

Personally, I love the pixel metaphor, and believe in it, sort of. The word 
"pixels," while poetic, is a problem for me, however. My dictionary dates the 
word back to 1969. It's a technical term for the dots of color that compose a 
larger electronic image. The pixels do not hold the image; together they form 
it. But each of us, as a whole, was created in HaShem's image. To that 
extent, the metaphor doesn't work.

I don't mean to nitpick here. Mrs. Atwood's image is a lovely one, and points 
to a part of Judaism that I hold dear.

David Finch

In a message dated 12/22/99 8:39:56 PM US Central Standard Time, 
jerosenb@hcs.harvard.edu writes:

<< The most liberal attitude towards alcohol I've ever seen was at 
Swarthmore, 
 a small Quaker college, where the administration buys beer for 
 school-sponsored parties which is then served to anyone who wants it.
 When I was visiting, I asked about this, and students told me that people
 rarely get drunk:  they just have a beer or two and enjoy the party.
  >>

Thanks for the correction. I used to live in Evanston, and you're right about 
its history, although now the whole city is awash in high-priced booze. 
Swartmore, however, is the exception that proves the rule, i.e., in 
social-science-speak a self-selecting sample. The admissions people weed out 
applicants who would get drunk on free beer. That's why not a single stanza 
of great lyric poetry has been written by a Swarthmore graduate.

David Finch

> 
> A Jewish king does not have to justify any expenditure.
> 
I am not convinced of this.
He certainly has the right to spend on his household and on an army
and to build roads.
I would doubt that he can distribute money freely to his friends.
What are legitimate needs can be discussed but I again assume they
have to be rationale.

Whether the state is like a king is not that important.
As a minimum the Israeli state is like a kehilla. As such it is
accountable for how it spends its money.

In a slightly different area a public servant cannot do as he wishes
with his position. It is halachiv=cally prohibited for a state
hospital to give preference to a Talmud chacham even though a
private doctor should so. In public it is first come forst serve
with no "protekzia" (I am talking about theory not practice !).

Eli Turkel

> 
> I was referring to the idea that you sent each child to a different 
> school that is (was?) presumably appropriate for him/her. This is 
> difficult to do in Israel. If one child is in a school stream, you are 
> expected to send all of your children to that school stream (or to its 
> opposite sex counterpart). The flip side is that once one of your 
> children is accepted to a school, they will generally accept the rest 
> of them.
> 
This is true of charedi schools not Bnei Akiva schools.

Eli

Sorry that I am getting to this late, but I can never seem to find the time 
to keep up with all the postings on Avodah in a timely fashion, and am always 
playing catch-up. 

Thanks to all who have replied to my original question entitled above. The 
different points of view are eye-opening. Here is my 2 cents, from a somewhat 
different perspective, as I spend a lot of time dealing with the ravages of 
teens and alcohol.

>>C'mon. What ever happened to common sense?  How many
>>people make kiddush on Friday night over wine?  How
>>many give their kids a sip?  How many of those kids
>>are alcoholic?  Can Dr. Twersky really be opposed to
>>that?

>>HM


HM is certainly correct that a sip of wine as part of Friday night kiddush is 
harmless. On the other hand, that little sip of wine does not, as other 
posters claimed, "de-mistify" alcohol and lessen the liklihood of teen 
experimentation.

    What concerns me more, and the reason I mentioned the issue ij the first 
place, is the Shabbat morning kiddush in shul, together with its grotesque 
off-shoot, "the kiddush club". I have witnessed too many communities where 
the kiddush table becomes renowned for the quality of its "single-malt", 
where shot glass after shot glass is poured to ostensibly "make a lachayim". 
As this is mostly, but not exclusively a male activity, to the eyes of a 
teen, it becomes a real "macho" activity, a way of proving "I'm a man", "I'm 
doing adult activities". This is especially so when we restrict so much of 
our teens lives -- for example, interaction with the opposite sex, access to 
media which may be "adult" and objectionable, etc. etc. 
    Can you honestly say that the teens in shul don't try to get their own 
"shot"? (if nothing else so that they can brag to their friends). Not only is 
that illegal (and could cause tremendous liability to the institution where 
the activity is taking place), but how do you tell the teens that this 
l'chyim drinking, which we glorify, is off limits. Do you really think they 
listen? Do you think that they'll only drink under your supervision?
    If you don''t think that underage drinking is not a serious problem in 
Yeshiva high schools of all orthodox stripes, then you are naive, to say the 
least. 

    And, of course, Mike Feldstein is correct when it comes to Purim and 
Simchat Torah, but that's only part of the problem.
    We all need a serious attitude check when it comes to alcohol.
    David I. Cohen

*********************


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