Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 196

Friday, December 17 1999

• Re: YH for MZ
• Re: Avodah V4 #194
• Re: Yetzer Ha'Ra for MZ
• Re: Avodah V4 #194

I think that as a mamleches Kohanim and Goy Kaddosh we are called to abstain 
form behavior that might be normal for Gentiles.

so I agree that OTOH that YH might be tolerated for goyim and OTOH the same 
behvairo would be a toeivo for an am kadosh.

Just yesterday - off list - I was asked is it true that the chunch says besheim 
the RambaN that the issur of MZ does NOT apply to Goyim unlike other aspects of 
Gilluy Aroyos

IF this is TRUE, it might confirm our undrstanding that MZ is lav davka inately 
evil, but neveertheless a toei'vo for an am kadosh. This dovetails well with the
Ramban's philosphy of Kedoshim tihyu in general in which the high standards of 
behavior are particular to Am Yisroel, Eretz Yisroel

Perhaps if knaanim preactices such in another territory outside EY then the land
would not be "ko'oh" them (kasher ko'oh....)

this is both an agreement and elaboration of some machshovo.

Rich Wolpoe

___________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

1. Many  types of licentious "normal" behavior are called "to'eivah" or 
"ma'aseh Eretz Kena'an" in the Torah.


Do we agree on these points?

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659 
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

)
From: micha@aishdas.org (Micha Berger)
Subject: Re: problem kids

Carl M. Sherer <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il> quotes David Herskovic and writes:
:> Teens leaving the fold are an inevitable consequence of a)the growth in
:> numbers of the chareidi population and b)the ever increasing extremism,
:> insularity and self imposed isolation of the community.

: Then how do you explain why just as many teens are leaving the
: fold in the dati leumi communinty here in Israel R"L? My wife
: caught the end of a speaker at my daughter's (dati leumi) high
: school last year who said that based on statistics of ten years ago,
: one graduate in five in the dati leumi high schools leaves fruhmkeit
: within a few years. And if anything, it has only gotten worse since
: then, according to the speaker. Is the dati leumi population growing
: as fast as the Charedi one? Is it as insular as the Charedi
: population?

I think there's a parallel problem in the dati le'umi community.

Chareidim teach their kids insularity as part of core Yiddishkeit. In the
minds of too many, if the insularity doesn't work, the whole unit goes out
the window, including observing halachah.

The dati le'umi parent is teaching a Yiddishkeit that includes Zionism. But
(for whatever reason) Zionism is failing to grab people's hearts in this
decade. In an era of post-Zionism, perhaps the Yiddishkeit as a whole is
seen
as part of that failing antiquated system.

Also, what percentage of graduates of dati leumi high schools come from
non-frum homes? IOW, what percentage of the 1 out of 5 was never really dati
to begin with?

- -mi

Really Dati?

Hey, watch where you stick that  Frumometer!! You wouldn't want anyone using
it on you now, would you?


- --
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 16-Dec-99: Chamishi, Vayigash
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 84b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.

------------------------------

--- "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
> I think it is a disservice to
> isolate a certain type of
> aveira and analyze its antecedents independently of
> the more fundamental
> concept of YH that underlies all ta'avos and more.

I disagree.  Generalizations do not necessarily speak
to specific solutions.  In the case of MZ, it seems to
be  a problem of more substantial degree, than not
putting up Mezuzos, both in level of YH and degree of
severity of the Aveirah.  I think we can agree that a
YH for MZ or other types of Issurei ervah, is a more
fundemental problem in society today than many other
types of YHs.

This is largely IMHO due to the society which has
evolved from the "permissive" era of the Sixties and
the Baby Boom generation of which, I am a "not so
proud" member. Mine is the generation  of "make love
not war" and "if it feels good, do it".  This
ultimately evolved into the "Me-ism" of the seventies
and the re-examination by the APA and re-definition of
MZ as normative (alternativre lifestyle), rather than
abnormal behavior.  

The influence of my generation is most felt and
foisted upon society in the entertainment industry
which perpetuates the "myth" and condems more
traditional views of sexuality.  This has been a
highly destructive force in all of society (AIDS being
a direct result of increased promiscuity and
acceptance thereof) and Judasim in particular.  We in
the orthodox community are not immune to those
influences whether we have TV,s or not. That is one of
(but only - ONE OF) the reasons that their are so many
"at risk" children today.  They are vulnerable to a
more sexually permissive society that exposes them to
Sex, Drugs, and all manner of depravity, and labels it
OK as aa alternative lifestyle.

There is more but I have to get of line now as my
daughter needs her computor now (I am in N.Y. visiting
her now.)


HM

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com

>Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 07:03:03 +0200
>From: "Akiva Atwood" <atwood@netvision.net.il>
>Subject: RE: Avodah V4 #193
...
>There is "ein simcha ella b'basar v'yayin". in regards to simchas Yom Tov.

Now take out the bassar which refered to the Korban of Yom Tov and you
have.....................

*********************


[ Distributed to the Avodah mailing list, digested version.                   ]
[ To post: mail to avodah@aishdas.org                                         ]
[ For back issues: mail "get avodah-digest vXX.nYYY" to majordomo@aishdas.org ]
[ or, the archive can be found at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/              ]
[ For general requests: mail the word "help" to majordomo@aishdas.org         ]