Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 080

Friday, October 29 1999

• Re: Ortho activist
• kidra cahysa
• Apology
• Re: kidra chaysa
• Ortho activist
• b'rich sh'meh - (really) Bad Joke
• RW writers being anonymous
• Wet Blanket Alert
• Brich Shemei
• Torah Or What?
• Raiding
• Re: Torah Or What?
• Re: ... the Torah its light
• Re[2]: ... the Torah its light
• Re: Ortho activist
• Re: RW writers being anonymous
• Re: Brich Shemei
• Ortho activist - Toward Tradition
• Re: RW writers being anonymous

Orthodox Jews are very parochial.  

Is this a good thing?  It depends on the issue.  

Even in matters that effect Torah Judaism there is a
dearth of activists. How many of us ever volunteered
to be on a phone squad to try and raise money for a
school function? Not many I'll bet.  Not because we
don't want to but because our time is so limited. 
Most men and , nowadays even women, spend so much time
at work that we want to reserve any remaining time to
spend with our families. That often leaves a
tremendous void in institutional fundraising
abitlities. So, when one does finally volunteer for
anything he has choices to make.  Should it be for the
day school? the shul?  The local Kollel? Or should it
be for an anti nuclear weapons rally? We can't do it
all.

Another thing.  There is the problem of what position
to take as Torah Jews. 

Take, for example the nuclear proliferation treaty
that the Clinton adminitration wanted to sign. I could
see arguments pro and con.  (personally I am con).  Is
there a Torah view on this issue? Certainly, there is,
and I'm sure many of us on this list can cite Torah
perspectives on both sides of the issue.  The same is
true of the abortion issue (I am in favor of keeping
abortions legal) and gun control (I'm not sure about
this one.  

So, again, the truth is that on secular issues one can
often take legitimite positions on opposing sides of
the issue.  We therefore tend to blend in with our
surrounding culture on these issues because there is,
most often, not a singular Torah position that we can
advocate. 

I believe that the above two points i.e.: 1.
allocation of time and 2. lack of Torah
definitiveness, are some of the reasons that Roshei
Yeshivos are reticent. 
But I also believe that most Roshei Yeshiva would say
that they are so involved with running their
instituions that they just don't have the time speak
out on these subjects even if they were so inclined.
Besides what should they speak about to their
students, Sichos on the drug problem or Sichos on
Mussar? Why bring in external culture?  Let us stay
isolated from the world at large. This is their
position, I believe.

But here I would disagree.  Problems of larger society
impact on all of us and it is important that our
leaders speak out publicly on them, and try to give us
their Torah perspective.  

There are some issues, however, that should have a
unified approach by all Roshei Yeshivos, Rabonim,
Admorim and other Klei Kodesh.  The issue of   moral
decay in our society comes to mind.  

Do our Roshei Yeshivos, et al, really believe they can
"isolate" the problem away? Speaking out against
owning a television isn't good enough. Even amongst
the most devout, card carrying Agdah members, there
are televisions (almost always in the bedroom where no
one can see them).  Even the President of Torah
U'Mesorah has one. Almost all progrming of this new TV
season that is not news oriented has some gratuitous
sex content!!! (They are of course trying to reclaim
their audiences from cable) The United States still
has a modicum of self censorship in this area as
compared to Europe, South America and even Israel (I
believe), who have all displayed full nudity on public
Television.  But our standards are slowly (perhaps not
so slowly) eroding. There has to be more proactive 
protest to the entertainment industry to provide more
"acceptable" programing, and to congress to legislate
and enforce existing standrds and even to raise them,
because even if you don't own a TV, even if no
Orthodox Jews would own TVs, society's influence from
it still impacts us.

It absolutely nauseates me to refference him but, the
Anti-Semite pandering, Pat Buchannan, Yimach Shemo, is
right about one thing. There is a cultural war in this
country between Hollywood type Humanists who are 
moral relativists, basicly agnostic, who have an
"anything goes" attitude,  and the Religious Right who
believe in the absolute morality of the bible. 

We need to participate in it.

HM

 






=====

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Once again, I assume because I included someone else's words in my quote,
you have misattributed words to me.

This is jordan's post:

Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 11:56:55 EDT
From: TROMBAEDU+AEA-aol.com
Subject: Re: kidra chaysa-Tangential point

In a message dated 10/27/99 4:16:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
nwitty+AEA-ix.netcom.com writes:

+ADwAPA- I was taught that it is mutar to put up cholent right before shkiah if
there is a piece of raw meat in the pot, and have seen it done in several
homes. OC 253-4, also SAR and MB. Of course the only catch is when YT
Rishon is on Friday.
  +AD4APg-

It is my understanding that in this case, the traditional midnight raid on
the cholent pot is assur. I am not entirely clear on the reason. Any ideas?

Jordan

JORDAN's post is over.
The following are my words:

I DID NOT ORIGINALLY PEN THE WORDS above ATTRIBUTED TO ME.   I DO NOT RAID
CHOLENT and generally, I don't care for it (yes, I AM Jewish+ACE-) unless I've
prepared it myself.

Jordan, in the future,  please read and snip carefully.

Noach Witty

My apologies to the list for the strange codes that are populating my posts
I use MS Outlook Express and if anyone can e mail me off line to tell me how
to reset defaults
I would appreciate it

The codes wreak havoc with punctuation

nwitty+AEA-ix.netcom.com

No good deed goes unpunished! In attempting to snip, I oversnipped (or 
undersnipped) 

My sincere apologies for crediting/blaming you for starting the "Raiders of the 
Midnight Cholent" thread.

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________



Hoping to correct a mistake, I coontributed to this subject and have been 
inserted willy-nilly into a discussion I had intended not to enter. 
RRWolpoe snipped a discussion as shown below which makes it appear--very 
incorrectly--that I began the "midnight-cholent raid" discussion.  See for 
yourself and then continue w/ my comments after RW's signature:


Noach Witty

There IS a possible venue for response.
It is called Toward Tradition.  I suggest you check it out and see if you think 
it addresses this need.

I do mean to neither advocate nor to denigrate Toward Tradition on-line; merely 
to note that it exists as a Traditional/Ortho Jewish repsonse to our society's 
increasing permissiveness.

If TT is not the answer, then somemthing similar might be.

Rich Wolpoe



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


Orthodox Jews are very parochial.  

Is this a good thing?  It depends on the issue.  

Even in matters that effect Torah Judaism there is a dearth of activists.

<snip>

There is a cultural war in this country between 
Hollywood type Humanists who are 
moral relativists, basicly agnostic, who have an 
"anything goes" attitude,  and the Religious Right who 
believe in the absolute morality of the bible. 

We need to participate in it.

HM

Question: What is G-d's first name?
Answer:   Murray.
Question: how do you know?
Answer:   Because it says Brich Shmei de Murray Almo
Blessed be the name of Murray Almo 


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: b'rich sh'meh 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    10/29/1999 9:54 AM


Cool Brisker Chumra.

Praytell (this is a rhetorical question, you are not expected to answer it) 
where is the "Shem"  (as in "Shem u"Malchus"). 
<snip>

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer

Joel Rich writes that "Perhaps you could ask your lurkers to comment on the
anonymity issue (anonymously if necessary)".  Unfortunately, writers in the
right wing community who are not anonymous have often been harrassed.  R.
Avigdor Miller told a close friend of mind that everytime his name gets into
the papers, he gets a rush of nasty telephone calls which, while they don't
bother him, upset his wife.  When certain individuals distributed a piece by
R. Shimon Schwab in which he was believed to have criticized a certain Y.U.
rosh yeshiva who was not named, he was the subject of crank telephone calls.
(When the article was reprinted in the book "Selected Speeches" without the
offending portion).  When R. Joseph Elias's article criticizing R. Adin
Steinzaltz was published by the JO, he was the subject of much nasty mail
and late night telephone calls.  The same thing happened to Eli Teitelbaum
when the Allgemeiner Journal published his reponse to R. Tendler's "Open
letter to the moetzes of Agudath Israel of America" concerning the JO
obituary for RYBS.  Personally, I have never had the problem, which is why I
usually don't publish anonymously, but I know that others have.

Levi Reisman

> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 09:16:08 -0400 (EDT)
> From: "Jonathan J. Baker" <jjbaker@panix.com>
> Subject: Re: Anonymity of RW - Humor Alert - Wet Blanket Alert

> > 	but you were not RRW until you joined here!
	I never meant ch"v to impugn his semicha (actually,  harking back to the
discussions of Reb vs. Rav,  he needn't even have semicha to be RRW);  I
simply meant the use of the abbreviation RRW which is found more in the
online world than elsewhere.  Wet blanket indeed.

Gershon

From: Sammy Ominsky <sambo@charm.net>
> Subject: Re: your mail
> 
> Why is that a no-no? We have other tefillot in Aramaic, most notably
Selihot.
	I cannot recall selichos in Aramaic with the exception of "Rachmana
de'ani etc." which the same people who don't say Brich Shemei,  don't
say.  I am of course not familiar with Sefarady selichos.

> We say Kaddish numerous times a day, even outside the regular tefillot.
Are they no-nos?
	I am not familiar with Pesichas Eliyahu although I suspect same goes as
for the quote from selichos above.  Kaddish is a special case;  see for
example Rav Dovid Cohen's Masas Kapai.
> 
> What is Kedusha Desidra, and why is it said silently?
	The Kedusha included in Uva Letzion.  The reason it is said silently is
because it is Aramaic.

Gershon

> From: micha@aishdas.org (Micha Berger)
> 
> Joel Rich <Joelirich@aol.com> quotes the bottom line of my signature file
> and asks:
> : << For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light. >>
> 
> : I don't know why I just noticed this, but where do you get "its" from in ki 
> : ner mitzvah vtora or?
> 
> My own imagination. Which is why there are no quote marks around it or
> citation after it.
> 
> Despite the fact that it says "viTorah or" and not "vitorah oraH" (with a final
> mapik hei), I do think this meaning is p'shat in the pasuk. The connection
> between candle and light is one of physical cause and spiritual affect.

Micha & I have had this out before, and I'm still not convinced.

To me the pasuk is saying what it says:  For a mitzva is a (lamp, candle:
one-wick light) and the Torah is light.  IOW, a one-wick light is the
smallest light source known to the ancients.  Torah is compared to light,
all the light we can perceive (leaving aside the or haganuz from Day 1).
A mitzvah is the smallest quantum of Torah performance, so it is 
compared to the smallest quantum of light production (by man; fireflies
are necessarily smaller).  So every mitzva we do, every lamp we light,
contributes to the light of Torah.  I ddon't see the necessity of
interpolating the "its".

> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 11:02:01 -0400
> From: "Noah Witty" <nwitty@ix.netcom.com>
> Subject: kidra chaysa

> It's Noach again.  Look, snip all you want but please don't 
> misrepresent me

> subject.  I have for many years thought of this +ACI-raid+ACI- as 

<snip>

> potentially aspects of gezel here. (hermits excepted)
	Agreed,  agreed.  I never raid anyone else's cholent and never take so
much even of my own as to reduce anyone's expectations for oneg Shabbos. 
It eventually reduces Sunday night supper,  but I haven't heard too many
complaints on that score.

> Additionally, (and this would tend to include hermits) considering 
> the high quality of American living, it's not usually the case that
people go 
> to bed hungry after a Friday night meal.  Tea or juice and a slice of 
> cake/danish
> might suffice to tide your +ACI-overwhelming+ACI- hunger.  Is this 
> time well spent?
> Did everyone already finish shnayim mikra and is up to date with the 
> daf?
>	No no no no.  Raiding the cholent is not about hunger,  it's about
ta'amu ur'u.  Never achila gasa.  And yes,  at that point (if I'm still
up and can join my boys on their raid) I am up to date on Daf Yomi, 
Shnaim Mikra,  the kriah for the next day and many meforshei haparsha.  I
have also washed all the dishes from the seudah.  If I have fallen
asleep,  the boys do their own raiding with my and my wife's blessing and
yes, they are coming to the raid following several hours of limud Torah
after the seudah.

 And did you finish carefully reading every word of the JP and the Yated?
	No.  And I do not subscribe to Commentary.  If I did,  I wouldn't read
it on Shabbos any more than the JP.  Yated, occasionally.


> Finally, a valid point was raised: w/i the parameters of hilchos 
> shabbos alone, what precisely is the heter, if any, to move the cholent
off 
> of the oven, out of the stove out of the insert (crockpot) and what 
> precisely is the heter to return it?
	We have the type of crock pot which does not have an insert but a pot
which sits on top of a heating element,  which is covered for Shabbos. 
Since the cholent is completely mevushal,  chazara is,  as far as I
recall,  mutar under those circumstances.  One does not need a heter to
remove it.

	Now that we have all that out of the way,  can we discuss something
lighter like nuclear proliferation?  Give me a break!

Good Shabbos
Gershon  (who has been spending far too much time on this in the last few
days!)

Jon Baker writes:
: A mitzvah is the smallest quantum of Torah performance, so it is 
: compared to the smallest quantum of light production (by man; fireflies
: are necessarily smaller).

Since we're airing an old argument for the list's contemplation, my usual reply
is to point out that "ohr" isn't "light production" and "ner" isn't a quantum
of light. A ner isn't a quantum of "ohr", it's a quantum of cause for "ohr". My
understanding makes the metaphor more exact.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 29-Oct-99: Shishi, Vayera
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 60b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Haftorah

In a message dated 10/29/99 11:07:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
micha@aishdas.org writes:

<< Joel Rich <Joelirich@aol.com> quotes the bottom line of my signature file
 and asks:
 : << For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light. >>
 
 : I don't know why I just noticed this, but where do you get "its" from in 
ki 
 : ner mitzvah vtora or?
 
 My own imagination. Which is why there are no quote marks around it or
 citation after it.
 
 Despite the fact that it says "viTorah or" and not "vitorah oraH" (with a 
final
 mapik hei), I do think this meaning is p'shat in the pasuk. The connection
 between candle and light is one of physical cause and spiritual affect. >>

The reason I asked is that the gemora in sota (21?) discusses the issue of 
zchut toleh and asks what zchut could do this for a woman. It seems to take 
for granted in the discussion that there are 2 categories of mitzvot - tora 
and all others and quotes our pasuk. While I can understand the logic, I was 
wondering if  there were any sources for this.  I tried to understand it in a 
way similar to one of your meshalim -talmud tora haba lyedei maaseh.

Shabbat Shalom
Joel Rich

And to extrapolate this concept, the Torah can be seen as coming down from Sinai
with multiple shades of meaning by design.  This dovetails well with the 
aforementioned Ritvo.

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


I could therefore see a number of ways of interpreting the mashal. 
<snip>
d- All of the above.

Mishalim are generally used (in poetry as well) because of (d) -- it allows 
you two draw the image from numerous angles in one stroke.

I put this paraphrase in my signature because I want to remind people of the 
centrality of the art of "listening to mitzvos" in yahadus.

-mi

In a message dated 10/29/99 12:01:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

<< There IS a possible venue for response.
 It is called Toward Tradition.  I  >>

Which can be found where?

Shabbat Shalom
Joel Rich

In a message dated 10/29/99 11:43:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
LMReisman@email.msn.com writes:

<< Joel Rich writes that "Perhaps you could ask your lurkers to comment on the
 anonymity issue (anonymously if necessary)".  Unfortunately, writers in the
 right wing community who are not anonymous have often been harrassed >>

My impression is that this phenomena cuts across wings - IMHO very 
unfortunately.

Shabbat Shalom
Joel Rich

Gershon Dubin wrote:



> 	I cannot recall selichos in Aramaic with the exception of "Rachmana
> de'ani etc." which the same people who don't say Brich Shemei,  don't
> say.  I am of course not familiar with Sefarady selichos.


Apparently they're quite different. After the first "Vaya'avor" is the
first of 12 "Alpha Beta's", in Aramaic, said responsively, out loud. It's
best known by it's refrain "Bedil Veya'avor".

Then at the end, there are a number of paragraphs in Aramaic, all read out
loud by the sh'tz. 



> > We say Kaddish numerous times a day, even outside the regular tefillot.
> Are they no-nos?
> 	I am not familiar with Pesichas Eliyahu although I suspect same goes as
> for the quote from selichos above.  Kaddish is a special case;  see for
> example Rav Dovid Cohen's Masas Kapai.


Is this the name of a sefer? I haven't seen it. Would you be kind enough
to summarize for me what makes Kaddish special?


---sam

Here is a blurb I found using Yahoo:
Toward Tradition
 Rabbi Daniel Lapin, President
 9311 S.E. 36th Street, Suite 210
 Mail:
 P.O. Box 58
 Mercer Island, WA 98040
 Phone: (206) 236-3046
 Fax: (206) 236-3288
 E-mail: Yardenw@towardtradition.org
 URL: http://www.towardtradition.org
 Members: 6,000
 Dues:$35 annual (Basic)

 Toward Tradition is an educational foundation dedicated to creating a national 
movement  of Jews allied with Christians who want to apply traditional, 
conservative values to  America's cultural, political, and economic life. Toward
Tradition is supported by over  6,000 people from around the country.

 Activities include the publication of a quarterly journal called Cornerstone, 
and a Toward  Tradition newsletter; distribution of audio cassettes; national 
newspaper advertisements;  national distribution of press releases; providing 
speakers to other organizations; and hosts  a variety of local and national 
events. 


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Ortho activist  
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:  10/29/1999 12:21 PM


In a message dated 10/29/99 12:01:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

<< There IS a possible venue for response.
It is called Toward Tradition.  I  >>

Which can be found where?

Shabbat Shalom
Joel Rich

--- "Lawrence M. Reisman" <LMReisman@email.msn.com>
wrote:
> Joel Rich writes that "Perhaps you could ask your
> lurkers to comment on the
> anonymity issue (anonymously if necessary)". 
> Unfortunately, writers in the
> right wing community who are not anonymous have
> often been harrassed.  R.
> Avigdor Miller told a close friend of mind that
> everytime his name gets into
> the papers, he gets a rush of nasty telephone calls
> which, while they don't
> bother him, upset his wife.  When certain
> individuals distributed a piece by
> R. Shimon Schwab in which he was believed to have
> criticized a certain Y.U.
> rosh yeshiva who was not named, he was the subject
> of crank telephone calls.
> (When the article was reprinted in the book
> "Selected Speeches" without the
> offending portion).  When R. Joseph Elias's article
> criticizing R. Adin
> Steinzaltz was published by the JO, he was the
> subject of much nasty mail
> and late night telephone calls.  The same thing
> happened to Eli Teitelbaum
> when the Allgemeiner Journal published his reponse
> to R. Tendler's "Open
> letter to the moetzes of Agudath Israel of America"
> concerning the JO
> obituary for RYBS.  Personally, I have never had the
> problem, which is why I
> usually don't publish anonymously, but I know that
> others have.
> 
> Levi Reisman


I personally don't have that much of a problem with
anonymity. It IS understandable. But, it is also
gutless.  People of conviction should not be afraid of
publicly stating their positions.  Sharp verbal
attacks  can serve as a springboard for further debate
which, as I've stated in the past is the surest road
to finding Emes. Hiding behind the veil of anonymity
only weakens their position. 

HM

=====

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Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

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