Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 045

Sunday, October 17 1999

• Re: Avodah V4 #40
• Re: Yoatzot
• Yoatzot - Cause for Trepidation
• Re: Yoatzot - Cause for Trepidation
• quirks
• Re: Yoatzot - Cause for Trepidation
• Crisis in TM
• Objections to Women Yoatzoth
• Change of Pace: ETH--Segol vs Tzaray
• Talmud Torah obligations
• Re: Yoatzot - Cause for Trepidation
• Re: Objections to Women Yoatzoth
• Re: Objections to Women Yoatzoth
• Re: Yoatzot

Just not to let you get the last word... :-).

I accept that I was mistaken and that there exist (or at least did exist,
and, therefore, my impression was inaccurate) practical shimush programs in
some yeshivos out there (as I said, Hesder or Charedi was not my point).
Yirbu k'mosam b'Yisroel!

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
ygb@aishdas.org  http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

----- Original Message -----
From: <toramada@netvision.net.il>
To: Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>;
<avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 1999 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: Avodah V4 #40


> Rabbi Bechhofer,
>
> I too wish to apologize.  Apparently my anger at those who dismiss Hesder
Yeshivot and
> their graduates made me think that you were in this category and I was
wrong.
>
> My husband and his friends (those who added the smicha program to their
kollel studies)
> all had shimush and personal experience in all the matters they studied,
including
> shechitah, hilchot Nidah (I should know as I took part in this section of
his
> shimush<g> as did those of my friends whose husbands were also studying
for Semicha)
> etc.
>
> Shavu'a Tov,
>
> Shoshana
>
> -------------------------------------
> Name: Shoshana L. Boublil
> E-mail: toramada@mail.netvision.net.il
> Date: 17/10/99
> Time: 08:01:17 AM , Israel
>
> This message was sent by Chameleon
> -------------------------------------
> Torah U'Madah Ltd. is developing a DB on the topic:
> "Environmental issues and the Halacha (Jewish Law)"
> any and all related information would be welcome.
>

----- Original Message -----
From: Chana/Heather Luntz <Chana/Heather@luntz.demon.co.uk>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 1999 3:39 AM
Subject: Re: Yoatzot


> BTW Just a question (and you do not need to answer it here, just to
> yourself).  If you can remember, how many shialas (ie number) did you
> ask in this area when you were first married (say first four-five
> months, plus add in the month before the wedding)? How many did your
> wife ask? Who did she ask (your posek or hers)? Now ask her this
> question - how did she feel about it, and (you can probably ask her this
> question these days) was she able to tell you everything that happened
> in this area, and can she swear she was never machmir because she didn't
> feel able to talk to anybody?  Ask her, see what she says.
>

I remember this period very well, I am not that old :-). Although the
questions are valid, and may yet justify the creation of the "Yo'etzes" on a
certain level, that was not my point.

My points, as I reiterate, are that it is questionable whether this is the
necessary or best resolution for this limited problem, whether this was the
absolute motivation for this development, and whether one should not tremble
somewhat, even if one feels this is a positive move, from potential negative
ramifications.

If I may ask you point blank Chana, can we agree on that?

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
ygb@aishdas.org  http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

Rabbi Bechhofer wrote: <<< Again,  I am repeating: I can't prove a thing.
Nor can anyone else. No one will be able to prove anything until five to
ten years down the line. Which is a cause for trepidation. At the very
least, the proponents of this program should fufill Dovid Ha'Melech's
dictum: "Gilu b'Re'ada" - "Rejoice with Trembling". I have yet to see
someone on the other side of this issue (which seems to include an
overwhelming majority of members of the Avodah list) concede even that
much. >>>

Would Rabbanit Henkin qualify as "someone on the other side of this
issue"?

I quote from her article "Women and the Issuing of Halachic Rulings",
available at http://www.virtual.co.il/channels/torah/feature2.htm 

<<< A process is underway, and it can only be harmed by sensationalism.
Our major concern must be the Halakha. Not for the purpose of empowering
women, but enabling women to observe mitzvot meticulously... We are
living in challenging times, when gender roles are changing and family
structures are weakening. We must weigh carefully the results of the
changes we are making upon our families. As we assume new roles uplifting
to our spirits and enabling us to apply our new scholarship for the
benefit of Am Yisrael, we must make certain that we are not falling short
of the proper nurture of our children or abandoning the joys of a large
family. >>>

It sounds clear to me that she is acknowledging the risks involved in
this undertaking. The potential benefits justify those risks in her eyes,
but she does indeed acknowledge the risks.

Akiva Miller

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I am sorry, but these are not the risks that I am concerned with. This is a
narrow view, indeed. The question as R' Henkin puts it, is not whether this
is good or bad for Am Yisroel - in this, she has no question. Rather, her
question is whether the women involved in this cahange might somehow not be
able tohave their cake and eat it too - that they should not be deprived of
other joys at the same time as they enjoy this new one.

This is kind of what I am looking for is kind of the following declaration:

"We, the MO leadership, have undertaken this new venture well aware of the
following risks and pitfalls:

1. Further rift and rupture between our community and the RW.
2. Diminshed involvement of men as the cost of increased involvement of
women.
3. Possible Shalom Bayis problems when the wife consults a yo'etzes and the
husband a Rav.
4. Harmful effects on the delicate fabric of society in Am Yisroel in
changes to expectations within sociological and educational systems.
5. A potentially dangerous sled ride down the slippery slope to de facto
women rabbis.

We may, indeed, five or more years hence, regret this move. Nevertheless,
our concerns for THM non-observance and problems within our community have
impelled us to take this step, which we consider and hope will be a step
towards enhanced Avodas Hashem. So, with trepidation and concern, we
nonetheless have concluded that this will be a positive step forward for our
community and pray that our decision prove correct.

Signed:

(I hope those on the other side of the debate here might see fit to "sign"
this statement.)

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
ygb@aishdas.org  http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

----- Original Message -----
From: Kenneth G Miller <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 1999 8:11 AM
Subject: Yoatzot - Cause for Trepidation


> Would Rabbanit Henkin qualify as "someone on the other side of this
> issue"?
>
> I quote from her article "Women and the Issuing of Halachic Rulings",
> available at http://www.virtual.co.il/channels/torah/feature2.htm
>
> <<< A process is underway, and it can only be harmed by sensationalism.
> Our major concern must be the Halakha. Not for the purpose of empowering
> women, but enabling women to observe mitzvot meticulously... We are
> living in challenging times, when gender roles are changing and family
> structures are weakening. We must weigh carefully the results of the
> changes we are making upon our families. As we assume new roles uplifting
> to our spirits and enabling us to apply our new scholarship for the
> benefit of Am Yisrael, we must make certain that we are not falling short
> of the proper nurture of our children or abandoning the joys of a large
> family. >>>
>
> It sounds clear to me that she is acknowledging the risks involved in
> this undertaking. The potential benefits justify those risks in her eyes,
> but she does indeed acknowledge the risks.
>
> Akiva Miller
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> Get the Internet just the way you want it.
> Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
> Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
>

Jonathan Baker makes a number of good points, and asks:

> To answer both points: I personally find it icky dealing with the
> bedika cloth.  So my wife has to overcome what she knows is my
> revulsion for even trying to ask a question.  She needs me as an
> intermediary because our LOR won't talk to her - I think it's his own
> personal quirk, but when we went to ask him a shaila recently, her
> shaila, he talked at me and wouldn't look at her.  And what if he
> needs more details?

I wouldn't be surprised if Jonathan's feelings are not unique (of course I
haven't made a study of the subject.)  As to the rabbi's feelings, it
could be that for him it feels like an issue of tznius -- he doesn't
really want to be talking to the woman about these things, so he looks at
the husband.  And of course, if he needs more details, he's going to get
the information more easily if it's directly from the wife.  Hence a need
for yoatzot.

Freda Birnbaum, fbb6@columbia.edu

--- "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
> This is kind of what I am looking for is kind of the following
> declaration:
> 
> "We, the MO leadership, have undertaken this new venture well aware
> of the
> following risks and pitfalls:
> 
> 1. Further rift and rupture between our community and the RW.
> 2. Diminshed involvement of men as the cost of increased
> involvement of
> women.
> 3. Possible Shalom Bayis problems when the wife consults a yo'etzes
> and the
> husband a Rav.
> 4. Harmful effects on the delicate fabric of society in Am Yisroel
> in
> changes to expectations within sociological and educational
> systems.
> 5. A potentially dangerous sled ride down the slippery slope to de
> facto
> women rabbis.
> 
> We may, indeed, five or more years hence, regret this move.
> Nevertheless,
> our concerns for THM non-observance and problems within our
> community have
> impelled us to take this step, which we consider and hope will be a
> step
> towards enhanced Avodas Hashem. So, with trepidation and concern,
> we
> nonetheless have concluded that this will be a positive step
> forward for our
> community and pray that our decision prove correct.
> 
> Signed:
> 
> (I hope those on the other side of the debate here might see fit to
> "sign"
> this statement.)
> 

I would have no problem in signing the statement, with some
emendations: I don't consider #2 and #3 much of a risk.  And I think
the benefit is not merely in increased THM observance but also in
allowing women the opportunity to exercise their talents and share
their learning with others.  

In general, when I debate with those to the left of me, I emphasize
the risks, and when I debate with those to the right of me, I
emphasize the benefits.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

=====

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Rabbi YGB writes

>>To the best of my awareness, and I try to keep my ear to the ground,
there
>>was no great crisis in taharas ha'mishpocho (THM). This is probably
because

This is not statistically true. The Jewish community has a crisis in that
not many
people observe it, it is hard to learn, it is not talked about etc. This
is an Issur
Careth and hence I consider the situation a crisis. Any increase in
Talmud
Torah should be welcome whatever the political consequences.

Russell

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Moshe writes


>The primary goal here is finding an outlet for talmidot chachamot to
>apply their learning.  There are material benefits to the Jewish
>community in terms of increasing taharat hamishpacha observance, but
>this is a benefit, not a goal.

Surely that is not the case. The goal must be twofold--increase of
learning
and increase of taharat hamishpacha. Eg there is no move to increase
knowledge of Yoreh Deah (eg basar bchalav) among women. The learning
is focused specifically on Taharat Mishpachah issues

Russell
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I owe a few responses from questions before the holidays.

This one I believe came from Moshe, Micah and Mechy--they
wanted to know when there is ETH vs AYS (ie when there is
a cantillation vs none).

This past weeks parshah (shishi) gives a nice set of examples.

Here is the rule OF THUMB (It works most of the time but
not all the time).

>>If you have a choice between putting in a HYPHENATION
>>vs a CONNECTIVE cantillation you by and large put in
>>the HYPHEN.
>
>>However if you have a choice between putting in a
>>HYPHEN and a PAUSAL cantillation then you put in
>>the PAUSAL cantillation.

If you go thru Shishi of Noach you will see that the above
rule holds in most cases

Russell
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David Glasner writes

>>
If HKBH (Hakadosh Baruch Hu) would not have made Talmud Torah an
obligation
for men and only an option for women; and Din Torah (as in membership in
a
Beis Din or Sanhedrin), an option for men, but not for women, t 

I hate to be picky, but where did HKBH express Himself one way or the 
other about these matters?  All we have is the view of Hazal (which, I 
>>

In this case I enjoy being picky. The restriction of men to Batay Dinim
and the fact that men not women are obligated in Talmud Torah is
learned in a straightforward manner form Biblical verses. It has nothing
to do with an opinion of Chazal. (If anyone wants me to go over the
relevant drashoth I would be happy to)
Russell
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I'm willing to compromise :-).

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
ygb@aishdas.org  http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Moshe Feldman <moshe_feldman@yahoo.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 1999 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: Yoatzot - Cause for Trepidation


> --- "Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer"
> <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
> > This is kind of what I am looking for is kind of the following
> > declaration:
> > 
> > "We, the MO leadership, have undertaken this new venture well aware
> > of the
> > following risks and pitfalls:
> > 
> > 1. Further rift and rupture between our community and the RW.
> > 2. Diminshed involvement of men as the cost of increased
> > involvement of
> > women.
> > 3. Possible Shalom Bayis problems when the wife consults a yo'etzes
> > and the
> > husband a Rav.
> > 4. Harmful effects on the delicate fabric of society in Am Yisroel
> > in
> > changes to expectations within sociological and educational
> > systems.
> > 5. A potentially dangerous sled ride down the slippery slope to de
> > facto
> > women rabbis.
> > 
> > We may, indeed, five or more years hence, regret this move.
> > Nevertheless,
> > our concerns for THM non-observance and problems within our
> > community have
> > impelled us to take this step, which we consider and hope will be a
> > step
> > towards enhanced Avodas Hashem. So, with trepidation and concern,
> > we
> > nonetheless have concluded that this will be a positive step
> > forward for our
> > community and pray that our decision prove correct.
> > 
> > Signed:
> > 
> > (I hope those on the other side of the debate here might see fit to
> > "sign"
> > this statement.)
> > 
> 
> I would have no problem in signing the statement, with some
> emendations: I don't consider #2 and #3 much of a risk.  And I think
> the benefit is not merely in increased THM observance but also in
> allowing women the opportunity to exercise their talents and share
> their learning with others.  
> 
> In general, when I debate with those to the left of me, I emphasize
> the risks, and when I debate with those to the right of me, I
> emphasize the benefits.
> 
> Kol tuv,
> Moshe
> 
> =====
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
> 

--- Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@juno.com> wrote:
> Moshe writes
> 
> 
> >The primary goal here is finding an outlet for talmidot chachamot
> to
> >apply their learning.  There are material benefits to the Jewish
> >community in terms of increasing taharat hamishpacha observance,
> but
> >this is a benefit, not a goal.
> 
> Surely that is not the case. The goal must be twofold--increase of
> learning
> and increase of taharat hamishpacha. Eg there is no move to
> increase
> knowledge of Yoreh Deah (eg basar bchalav) among women. The
> learning
> is focused specifically on Taharat Mishpachah issues
> 

If you prefer, distinguish between primary and secondary goals.  From
reading between the lines (both of her article and her lecture to the
Feminism & Orthodoxy conference last year), it is my opinion that
Rabanit Henkin did not embark upon the yoatzot program because she
felt that THM is one of the burning issues of the day.  She did so
because she wished to find an outlet for talmidot chachamot to apply
their learning.  Since there is a need in the realm of THM (more than
in basar bchalav), she chose that area.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

=====

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Another thing upon which we agree. This may be the day for reconciliation
:-).

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
ygb@aishdas.org  http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

----- Original Message -----
From: Moshe Feldman <moshe_feldman@yahoo.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 1999 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: Objections to Women Yoatzoth


> If you prefer, distinguish between primary and secondary goals.  From
> reading between the lines (both of her article and her lecture to the
> Feminism & Orthodoxy conference last year), it is my opinion that
> Rabanit Henkin did not embark upon the yoatzot program because she
> felt that THM is one of the burning issues of the day.  She did so
> because she wished to find an outlet for talmidot chachamot to apply
> their learning.  Since there is a need in the realm of THM (more than
> in basar bchalav), she chose that area.
>
> Kol tuv,
> Moshe
>
> =====
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
>

This is the Adina half of Carl & Adina Sherer writing. I have never written to 
this list before - Carl is the one who reads and responds. 
But I have skimmed a few of the letters about the Yoatzot issue.
First of all, I would like to say that the discussion is 
certainly fascinating - an incredibly high level of thoughtfulness combined
with mutual respect. I agree with some of the writers, disagree with others, and
generally don't have too much new or substantive to say. But after 
reading the last few posts, I felt an urge to suggest an additional 
perspective. 

People are focusing on an either/or approach - women/people should be 
going more to their local rav for psak in general, and it could be 
problematic in a dozen different ways if these yoatzot/poskot are going 
to be in place of the rav, and the women should be able to 
comfortably consult on all halachik issues with their family rav, and 
why aren't the combo of mikva lady+husband enough, etc. 

(Actually, that was a *really* new one to me - it has never ever ever 
occured to me to ask a bedika question of a mikva Lady(!?). I also 
don't think that anyone really believes the world works according to 
'should' [as in, we *should* be asking the rabbanim, so there!] or that just 
because we haven't heard about a problem that means the problem 
isn't there [sadly, the recent publicity about abuse and drugs in the 
very fruhm world is only the tip of the iceberg for a very long-running 
silent crisis - try asking R. Twersky or the new assoc of fruhm 
mental health professionals]. I have heard quietly from enough 
authoritative people about widespread problems with newlywed 
couples, even/esp in the chareidy world, and the Rabbanim are well 
aware of the problem and don't have an effective solution in place - 
and they acknowlege that the problem is partly worsened by lack 
of time on their part and misplaced 'modesty/embarassment/tzniyut' 
on the couples' part.) 

At any rate, I don't think that the yoatzot have 
to be seen as moving in on the Rav's sphere, or potentially 
inappropriately replacing him. And yet, they are necessary in a 
very strong, highly educated and knowlegable role. Think of a 
different analogy. 

Look at the world of complicated, long term illnesses where the 
family has to deal with complex questions, both medical and 
logistical/familial, over a long period of time with answers that affect 
all parts of their lives. Yes, in theory, you want to be able to sit 
down with your top doctor/specialist and ask him everything and 
get all the answers you need to feel comfortable with your 
understanding and ability to handle the situation. But realistically, 
the doctor probably doesn't have time for a lengthy rambling 
conversation, and you feel embarrassed/awkward at some of the 
silly-seeming concerns you have. (yes, I know, no question should 
ever be dismissed, but how many families will 'bother' the doctor 
about concerns over how to get a sibling of the sick child to 
nursery school?) so what happens? either the questions don't get 
asked and the family fumbles along, or in some medical centers 
they have a team effort with some sort of highly trained 
nurse/practitioner who works closely with the family on a day-to-
day basis, who understands the whole medical picture essentially 
as the doctors do, plus understands the families' 
emotional/physical/financial/etc. issues and **has the time and 
'approachablility'** to sit with them and help them feel relaxed and 
is therefore able to answer the questions that really bother them, no matter 
how 'silly'. And yes, if it comes to a medical issue that needs more 
knowlege, she can go to the doctor and tell him what's going on 
and facilitate an early meeting/solution.

And yes, she would answer 'simple' medical questions that are 
beyond the family's knowlege, and refer the ones she can't answer 
to the doctor. It's a natural system that works in all areas of life - I 
don't call Julia Child if my challah recipe fails, I call a friend with 
experience making challah, and then maybe a friend who actually 
makes giant batches of her challah and sells them privately, and 
then maybe a bakery... Or if I have a kashrus question in my 
kitchen, maybe I call my sister who became fruhm 5 years before 
me so she knows more, and then maybe the teacher I felt close to 
in school, and then maybe my local shul rabbi, and then if he's 
unsure he could tell me to ask the big gadol in the large shul 
downtown... See how it works? I think all the focus on names and 
titles is very misplaced. The ideal is to increase the level of Torah 
learning and knowlege and practice among all Jews, nothing less. 
Look at the time of Chizkiyahu, when all men/women/children were 
experts on dinei Tumah and Tahara - that was a generation that 
could have seen Mashiach come. And we really really really need 
mashiach now. I think this new level of learning in women has to be 
seen in the context of bringing mashiach closer, not as one more 
excuse for division and argument.

And Yes & No - the whole system of education in the fruhm world 
should be revamped to address the needs and abilities of each 
child, but that's a long-standing problem and not something else to 
chalk up to the new levels of learning for women. Right now, the 
adult women who are most strongly able & motivated will have to 
work a little extra hard to 'swim upsteam' and get into a program 
that offers appropriate learning possibilities. Yes, it would be nice if 
they had better preparation in grammar and high school, and it 
would make it easier for the women who are not MOST HIGHLY 
and STRONGLY motivated, but it's not essential/critical/toppriority
right now when there are more urgent needs in the school system as a 
whole. Ideally, some day, there will be appropriate streams and 
school options for all children, at all different levels and interests, 
but having the possibility for a few outstanding/unusual women to 
become 'yoatzot' today does not in and of itself obligate us to 
provide such a system instantaneously.

--adina


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

********************


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