Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 034

Tuesday, October 12 1999

• Re: objections to women yoatzot
• mlacha nekia?
• Re: objections to women yoatzot
• Re: objections to women yoatzot
• Re: objections to women yoatzot
• Re: Davening on Continental Airlines
• Re: Avodah V4 #33
• Yoatzot
• Re: objections to women yoatzot
• The Story of Mizrachi-Chicago
• Women Yoatzot
• Re: The Story of Mizrachi-Chicago
• re: women poskot
• Re: objections to women yoatzot
• Re: Women Yoatzot
• Re: objections to women yoatzot
• Re: Women Yoatzot
• Re: Women Yoatzot

In a message dated 10/12/99 8:31:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
csherer@netvision.net.il writes:

<< 
 > This problem will afflict the MO world:
 > 
 > 1. There are other spheres that count for men on a par with TT.
 
 I agree that is a problem with the MO world. But I don't think that 
 problem arises from having women yoatzot. I think the problem 
 arises from a lack of focus on learning in the MO world, in which 
 many people often can't decide they seek Torah Im Derech Eretz 
 or Derech Eretz Im Tora.
All too often, the choice is the latter. (As 
 an aside, I note that eight years ago this past Shabbos, I heard a 
 drasha from R. Shikovitzky z"l whose theme was that b'zeas 
 apecha tochal lechem is an onesh and not a mitzva. That drasha 
 serves as a constant mussar shmooze for me). >>
 
I think we've covered this ground often before but there is a stream of 
thought that Lovda ulshomra (which preceded the onesh) and vkivshua require 
involvement in the "outside" world.  The constant challenge to the 
philosophically committed MO is one of balance in a life committed to doing 
the Ratzon Hashem in all its aspects.

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

see CNN news for a story on chareidi involvement as international illicit
drug transport. almost needs no comment..........

On 12 Oct 99, at 9:58, Joelirich@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 10/12/99 8:31:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> csherer@netvision.net.il writes:
> 
> << 
>  > This problem will afflict the MO world:
>  > 
>  > 1. There are other spheres that count for men on a par with TT.
>  
>  I agree that is a problem with the MO world. But I don't think that 
>  problem arises from having women yoatzot. I think the problem 
>  arises from a lack of focus on learning in the MO world, in which 
>  many people often can't decide they seek Torah Im Derech Eretz 
>  or Derech Eretz Im Tora.
> All too often, the choice is the latter. (As 
>  an aside, I note that eight years ago this past Shabbos, I heard a 
>  drasha from R. Shikovitzky z"l whose theme was that b'zeas 
>  apecha tochal lechem is an onesh and not a mitzva. That drasha 
>  serves as a constant mussar shmooze for me). >>
>  
> I think we've covered this ground often before but there is a stream of 
> thought that Lovda ulshomra (which preceded the onesh) and vkivshua require 
> involvement in the "outside" world.  The constant challenge to the 
> philosophically committed MO is one of balance in a life committed to doing 
> the Ratzon Hashem in all its aspects.

I wasn't trying to argue that one should not be involved in the 
outside world. I do think that often the balance is not struck 
correctly by those who need to strike it, and one of the areas 
where that balance is often not struck properly is in devotion to 
Talmud Torah. Although "derech eretz kadma laTorah," our first 
priority still has to be Torah.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

The mindset must be changed as well. No easy task. It is the same mindset
which leads to the high percentage of educators in MO schools being of the
RW persuasion, something discussed here previously.


----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel B. Schwartz <SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 1999 8:33 AM
Subject: Re: objections to women yoatzot


> Rabbi Bechhofer raises an interesting point.  the question then is how to
> prevent the rift which he fears from occuring.  It seems illogical to
> abandon a program which in all probability will lead to  a greater
> observance of Taharat HaMishpacha.  Rather, perhaps MO should reexamine
the
> way it educates it's men and reform that.
>
Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila
ygb@aishdas.org  http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

----- Original Message -----
From: Carl M. Sherer <csherer@netvision.net.il>

> I don't think anyone is suggesting that women will be or are being
> given "equal footing" as a result of Tova Ganzel and Dena
> Zimmerman being licensed as yoatzot. First, AFAIK it is not
> intended that they pasken halacha in the sense of, for example,
> looking at bdika cloths. And I will go so far as to say that I don't
> think I would want my wife trusting one of them to do so even if
> they were - at least not now. I remember hearing from my posek in
> America that he watched his father-in-law pasken ksomim for
> eighteen years before he dared pasken them himself. Clearly these
> women do not - at least at this stage - have his kind of shimush.
> Whether or not they might in the future is a different issue, but from
> what I understand of this, that is not the intent.
>
> Second, both the women themselves, and Rabbanit Henkin, who
> runs Nishmat, have gone to great pains not to call them "poskot."
> The press may have reported it otherwise, but the press ran to
> Shlomo Benizri and Meir Porush for reactions, and not to R.
> Elyashiv or R. Scheinberg or R. Ovadia. So I don't put much stock
> in what I have read in the press. I don't think Nishmat's not calling
> them "poskot" is just political; I honestly do not believe that they
> intend to attempt to replace the Rabbonim as the decisors of issur
> v'heter in Hilchos Nida or in any other area.
>

Well, could you please, when you get back, check it out, or ask someone to
do so?

> Third, their expertise is (at least in what they have learned in this
> course) limited to Hilchos Nida. Hilchos Nida is (to me at least)
> clearly an area where the women have a much greater role in the
> assiya than the men do. I think that specifically within Hilchos Nida
> there is a need for many women to have a woman to talk to. I have
> heard from my own posek (who is most definitely in the Charedi
> world, and from what I understand is conceptually in favor of the
> role of the yoatzot) that the biggest problem in Hilchos Nida today
> is that women do not ask shailas and because of that they are
> automatically machmir. This to the extent that when a woman
> comes to him and says she is having fertility problems, his first
> question is who is looking at her bedika cloths. If having yoatzot
> means that these women will ask shailas through the yoatzot
> (which I understand to be a major purpose of the whole program),
> then that is a positive development IMHO. To put it in more graphic
> and parallel terms, suppose R"L you had a urological problem, how
> comfortable would you feel discussing it with a woman doctor
> (forgetting for a minute any halachic problems with TREATMENT
> by a woman urologist - I mean DISCUSSING it)? I know that I
> would feel uncomfortable, and I think that many of our wives feel
> uncomfortable discussing their bodily functions with men other than
> their husbands.
>

I am not sure why, then, not just encourage the women, by popular education,
to go to the rebbetzins of the MO community to transmit the she'eilos to
their husbands. If, indeed, that is all the yo'atzot do - convey questions
to poskim - why, then, the extensive and official training and
certification? There are far more - it would seem - quicker and more
effective routes to go?

> Fifth, I think this reflects a pretty low view of men. Why do you
> think that if women learn (and I ask this totally in the abstract
> without getting into the questions of what women should or should
> not learn) and become scholarly that automatically means that
> men would R"L abandon learning? Why are you comparing
> fruhmkeit to lehavdil elef alfei havdolos, the Protestant church? Isn't
> it possible that men who saw their wives learning would learn more
> and concentrate more in an attempt to obtain or maintain their
> edge over their wives in learning (as is often the case, lehavdil, with
> parnassa)? Couldn't children be influenced to shteig as much by a
> mother who cares about Talmud Torah as by a father who cares
> about Talmud Torah?
>

Alright, please let us know what the husbands of these yo'atzot do for
livings etc. That would prove your point, to be sure.

I see no demeaning parallel in referencing the Protestant Church (which this
Conservative Rabbi did, not I). Sociology and psychology are universal, no?

> The analogue here is the situation of toanot rabbanoim in the Batei
> Din here. When the first women toanot completed the course, it
> was widely felt that they would not be accepted, yet they have
> been, even by the Charedi world. The flip side is that we do not
> have women Dayanim, because there is a Halachic bar to that, and
> I don't expect that we will have women Dayanim. Also, AFAIK, the
> women toanot limit themselves to divorce cases.
>

I agree and disagree. I agree that there is an analog in that there was an
example of women receiving training not given to the men, and thus is a
parallel. I disagree as to the necessity. For whatever reasons, the to'anot
were essential. I still fail to see why yo'atzot, if they are not paskening,
just conveying, are necessary.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
ygb@aishdas.org  http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

Can I post your email on Tachlis (an aliyah list)?

thanks.
Moshe


--- Arnold Lustiger <alustig@erenj.com> wrote:
> I have recently returned from a short trip to Israel: I flew
> Continental
> Airlines out of Newark.  As you know, when flying from the US to
> Israel
> eastbound, there is at least one shacharis that must be davened -
> always a
> very awkward experience. Having flown on El Al on numerous
> occasions, I have
> found the El Al stewardesses to be indiffferent, or more often,
> terribly
> nasty to us as we attempted to make a minyan. 
> 
> In contrast, on this trip, a Continental stewardess contacted the
> pilot and
> asked him the approximate time of sunrise based on our projected
> location.
> She then spoke to me and told me that we had a window of 45 minutes
> from
> sunrise to the time that breakfast was to be served and the aisles
> had to be
> clear. She woke me up at the appropriate time, and announced on the
> PA that
> those who wanted to pray were welcome to do so in the rear galley.
> The rear
> galley of the 777 can hold up to 17 people comfortably and is
> closed off by
> curtains from the adjoining lavatories. The galley is far enough
> from the
> seats so that we could not be heard by other passengers. We davened
> like
> menschen and agreed that next time our travels took us to Israel,
> we would
> try to fly Continental again. 
> 
> On the return flight, the stewardess announced Mincha. 
> 
> Arnie Lustiger
> 
> 
> 


=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

Am I correct in understanding that YGB's objections to the Yoatzot are
that because these women are too well educated and trained, the only men
who will wish to become poskim are those who are both naturally
attracted to the task and well enough trained?  In all of the rest of
society this is desirous, why should it be objectionable here?

I'm not sure I agree with his forecast, but if competition does lead to
quality improvement I would think that would be commendable and
beneficial.  You don't have to accept the theory of biological evolution
to recognize the benefits of Social Darwinism.

David Eisenman

Am I correct in understanding that YGB's objections to the Yoatzot are
that because these women are too well educated and trained, the only men
who will wish to become poskim are those who are both naturally
attracted to the task and well enough trained?  In all of the rest of
society this is desirous, why should it be objectionable here?

I'm not sure I agree with his forecast, but if competition does lead to
quality improvement I would think that would be commendable and
beneficial.  You don't have to accept the theory of biological evolution
to recognize the benefits of Social Darwinism.

David Eisenman

Does that mean then that until such time the mindset is changed, programs
such as the "yoatzot" which will increase mitzva ibservance not be
implemented?

DANIEL B. SCHWARTZ, ESQ. SPECIALIZING IN ALL ASPECTS
OF MATRIMONIAL, FAMILY AND COMMERCIAL LITIGATION FOR
FURTHER INFORMATION INQUIRE AT:
SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET
----- Original Message -----
From: Yosef Gavriel and Shoshana M. Bechhofer <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 1999 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: objections to women yoatzot


> The mindset must be changed as well. No easy task. It is the same mindset
> which leads to the high percentage of educators in MO schools being of the
> RW persuasion, something discussed here previously.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Daniel B. Schwartz <SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
> To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 1999 8:33 AM
> Subject: Re: objections to women yoatzot
>
>
> > Rabbi Bechhofer raises an interesting point.  the question then is how
to
> > prevent the rift which he fears from occuring.  It seems illogical to
> > abandon a program which in all probability will lead to  a greater
> > observance of Taharat HaMishpacha.  Rather, perhaps MO should reexamine
> the
> > way it educates it's men and reform that.
> >
> Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
> Cong. Bais Tefila
> ygb@aishdas.org  http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila
>
>

Hershel Ginsberg's calumny of Rav Aharon Soloveichik in V4#33 is not worthy of
response. His pseudo-halachik assertion of g'zayro she'ayn rov hatzibur yochol
la'amod bo
concerning a community that has lived and thrived without an eiruv literally for
generations,
until very recent years, also falls of its own weight.

He further states, however: "The so-called lay leadership [that proceeded with
the eiruv project
over Rav Aharon's objection] were Rabbis of various shuls including several who
are respected
talmidei chachamim in their own right."  I take issue with this statement.

The eiruv project was originated by lay activists in the community without
rabbinic
guidance, and those lay activists continued to drive the process throughout.
There were few eiruv advocates among the Chicago rabbinate, particularly among those who
might be
considered "talmidei chachamim in their own right," only rabbis who, based on
their own chesh-
bonos, acquiesced in what they saw as the inevitable so as to make the best of
it (e.g., by
focusing on issues of after-the-fact eiruv kashrus or avoidance of eiruv abuse)
or did what they
felt they "had to" to avoid the consequences of failure to go along with the lay
powers that be. Putting aside the question of who are "talmidei chachamim in
their own right,"
virtually every Chicago rov that is ra'uy l'hora'a opposed the eiruv, although
some of them did so
only in private (presumably so as not to offend lay leadership). Most of the
prominent rabbis in the city ultimately said only that they would not oppose the eiruv, but
studiously avoided stating
that they support it.

Chazal tell us that b'ikvasa d'mashicha chutzpa yasgi and p'nay hador k'pnay
hakelev.  R'
Yisroel Salanter explained that as moshiach draws near laymen assume mastery and
rabbanim
trot ahead like dogs, constantly looking back to ensure they only lead where the
masters want
to go. It has not been difficult to discern this development in Chicago. The
go'el tzedek cannot
be far behind.

Kol tuv,
David

I heard Chana Henkin discuss the topic at the 1998 conference on feminism
(and wrote about the same in the Jewish Observer).  Please allow a few
observations.  First of all, there is a distinct problem with women having
difficulty taking niddah shaylos to rabbonim, and it is not just a "modern
orthodox" problem.  Whether or not Mrs. Henkin's approach is the right one
is not for me to say, but she is addressing a definite need.  Secondly, the
major problem I have with the entire subject is "Where is this heading?"  A
good portion of the discussion on the Women's Tefilah Network discussion
group has been centered on "What we can accomplish next?"  It is legitimate
to fear that what started out as an attempt to address a legitimate need
becomes a part of a different agenda.  I am not saying that Mrs. Henkin has
a different agenda, but others do.  Mrs. Henkin, for her part, was very
cautious in what she said at the conference (her speech is reprinted,
although not in its entirety in "Jewish Legal Writings by Women").  Thus,
she warned against using the word "poskot" but to me, it seemed that she was
more concerned with arousing opposition to what she was doing than she was
opposed to poskot.  She also said that women's learning should not be talked
about in terms of empowering women but enabling women to observe.  As far as
I could tell, there were no double meanings to this.  She also warned
against abandoning women's traditional role as mother and nurturer, and did
so in a way that indicated she really believed what she was saying and
wasn't just mouthing it off to earn brownie points with the right wing.
This having been said, I think we can be skeptical of the learning
accomplishments of the women involved until they can be verified
independently.  This is not to say that they are not the talmidot chachamot
their partisans claim they are, but they are not so just because of what
their partisans say.  All too often, inflated claims are made for others'
learning (and this is a universal fault).  Let's reserve judgment.  In the
meantime, opposed as I may be to Mrs. Henkin, I would advise treating her
with some respect, because she has earned it.  Do not dismiss her out of
hand.

Levi Reisman

What were the halachik issues that were of concern in the chicago eruv and 
how did they differ from those of other major metropolitan communities?

Kol Tuv
Joel Rich

> Second, I just wish to emphasize that it is clear (even according to
> the charedi viewpoint)--as noted in the article--that women can issue
> psak halacha if they are "learned."  The issue is merely what is
> considered "learned"--is it sufficient that they have become expert
> in Hilchot Niddah, or must they be expert in all areas of halacha,
> since all halacha is intertwined.
> 
> BTW, I have heard that one of the women poskot mentioned in the
> article is reputed to know all of Shas.

The area of hilchot niddah is, I think, perhaps *the* classic example of 
the indispensablility of "shimush" with a recognized posek in order to
attain a high level of halachic expertise.  (By the way, would Dr.
Soloveitchik view  "shimush" as one of the "last stands" of the
mimetic approach to halacha?) Most of the halachos of
"maros", for example, cannot be learned textually, but must be taught
visually and verbally, with lots and lots of real-life examples.
Considering the fact that the notion of "poseket" is, bil'shon hamaata,
controversial among the recognized poskim of our generation, with
whom will the putative poseket do shimush?    How will she acquire the
practical skills, no matter how text-learned she is?

On the other hand, training women to maintain a first-level
help-desk and provide an approachable, non-threatening atmosphere
for women with "shailos" is a good idea.   My impression is that
often the rebbetzen of the posek performs this function quite well.

Kol tuv,
Shlomo Godick








a poseket  

Correct. There are alternative manners by which this mitzva's observance may
be enhanced. These avenues should have been explored first.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
ygb@aishdas.org  http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila


----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel B. Schwartz <SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 1999 10:31 AM
Subject: Re: objections to women yoatzot


> Does that mean then that until such time the mindset is changed, programs
> such as the "yoatzot" which will increase mitzva ibservance not be
> implemented?

--- Kenneth G Miller <kennethgmiller@juno.com> wrote:

 
> I think people are making way too big a deal out of
> this. It's not like
> no one ever brought a shaila to the Rebetzin before!
> The only thing new
> is that now they're institutionalizing it. 

I Believe Akiva is correct.  After all is said and
done I see no problem with knowledgeable women
answering shailos that less knowledgeable wome might
have. As long as the don't attempt setting precedent
with Novellae in Halacha.  And I think anyone who
analyzes it would agree.

It is the institutionalizing that is the problem. Once
you formalize Yoatzot and give them some sort of
communal standing you run the risk of "pushing the
envelope":

Someone on the outside looking in (i.e. a
semi-knowledgeable lay-person) may say "Why not women
Rabbi's?  Why just call them Yoatzot?  Why not Poskot?
 What's the difference, anayway?  And what about
Women's prayer groups let's call them minyanim. So,
what's so terrible about women chavrusot since they
they all of a sudden know more then the men do (which,
generaly speaking, is probably true in all areas of
Torah knoledge except Talmud and it's commentaries and
Caro's Code of Jewish Law  with Isserles' glosses).

You see... it is, indeed, a slippery slope.  A can of
worms.  A Pandora's box. Better left unopened.

HM

P.S. Can anyone count the number of cliches' I used in
the above post?


=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

Perhaps they have been explored?  Additionally,  what of the issue that many
women would rather deal with another woman on these issues?  The chareidim
downplay this issue, but it is extremely important

DANIEL B. SCHWARTZ, ESQ. SPECIALIZING IN ALL ASPECTS
OF MATRIMONIAL, FAMILY AND COMMERCIAL LITIGATION FOR
FURTHER INFORMATION INQUIRE AT:
SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET
----- Original Message -----
From: Yosef Gavriel and Shoshana M. Bechhofer <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 1999 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: objections to women yoatzot


> Correct. There are alternative manners by which this mitzva's observance
may
> be enhanced. These avenues should have been explored first.
>
> Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
> Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
> ygb@aishdas.org  http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Daniel B. Schwartz <SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
> To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 1999 10:31 AM
> Subject: Re: objections to women yoatzot
>
>
> > Does that mean then that until such time the mindset is changed,
programs
> > such as the "yoatzot" which will increase mitzva ibservance not be
> > implemented?
>
>
>

In a message dated 10/12/99 3:20:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
hmaryles@yahoo.com writes:

<< 
 Someone on the outside looking in (i.e. a
 semi-knowledgeable lay-person) may say "Why not women
 Rabbi's?  Why just call them Yoatzot?  Why not Poskot?
  What's the difference, anayway?  And what about
 Women's prayer groups let's call them minyanim. So,
 what's so terrible about women chavrusot since they
 they all of a sudden know more then the men do (which,
 generaly speaking, is probably true in all areas of
 Torah knoledge except Talmud and it's commentaries and
 Caro's Code of Jewish Law  with Isserles' glosses).
 
 You see... it is, indeed, a slippery slope.  A can of
 worms.  A Pandora's box. Better left unopened.
 
 HM >>
How about those on the outside who are already saying "if women(mothers) in 
the orthodox community [all shades) are working outside the home already(and 
in many cases taking professions that do require extensive training) and thus 
"skimping" on the traditional role,  why can't they take up roles such as 
these as well?"

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

RYGB writes: <<< ... experience has shown ... that where women are given
equal footing as men, the women then become the predominant players ...
and the men will tend to gravitate to the other spheres that more
naturally attract them. >>>

First, what's wrong with women doing what they're good at, while the men
do what they're good at?

Second, dai lanu mah she'asrah haTorah. If and when women try to fill a
"Mara D'asra"-type role, then it will be important to consider what
is/isn't included in "Melech v'Lo Malkah". But for now, it seems like all
we're doing is to institutionalize and curriculum-ify that which
rebbetzins have been doing for millenia. (Please, no complaints about
these women not being married to rabbis; would any of you be willing to
take your nida shailas to a "rabbi" who has semicha but no wife?)

Akiva Miller
___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

********************


[ Distributed to the Avodah mailing list, digested version.                   ]
[ To post: mail to avodah@aishdas.org                                         ]
[ For back issues: mail "get avodah-digest vXX.nYYY" to majordomo@aishdas.org ]
[ or, the archive can be found at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/              ]
[ For general requests: mail the word "help" to majordomo@aishdas.org         ]