Avodah Mailing List

Volume 03 : Number 137

Tuesday, July 27 1999

• Re: What moves you
• Re: Abridged Kinot
• Re: Mitzvos Ma'asiyos
• hesder yeshivos
• Re: Mitzvos Ma'asiyos
• re: Abridged Kinot
• Har haBayis, etc.
• Re: Saying AMEN 90 times a day
• Kennedy curse
• Re: Kennedy Curse
• Munkacs
• Tisha Bav Kinos
• mitzvos maasiyos
• Hesder Yeshivos
• Re: hesder yeshivos
• Re: mitzvos maasiyos
• [none]
• Kever Rachel - Is it real?
• Re: Har haBayis, etc.
• Bal Tosif and upgrading issurim (fwd)
• Re: Kever Rachel - Is it real?

Although I haven't done it very frequently, I have found leading a
Beginner's Minyan to be inspiring.  The questions that Beginners ask
you often require you to think about the true meaning of the
davening.  The answers you give--on the spot--are (by definition)
answers that you know, but you may not have really thought about
these things for years.

Also, when I speak to ba'alei tshuvah, or prospective ba'alei tshuvah
about yahadut, I find that I get more passionate about it.

A related "moving experience" is to say a mussar dvar torah.  I find
that when I give one, I often come away inspired.  I speak
passionately about things that I consider important, and doing so
makes me even more passionate about them.  Conversely, when I
approach a topic about which I feel myself deficient, I am more
likely to notice the deficiency in myself (i.e., it's very hard to
speak publicly about it, and I generally end up not speaking about
it).  So, in a sense, I give to'chacha to myself.


Kol tuv,
Moshe
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In a message dated 7/26/99 8:24:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
shlomog@mehish.co.il writes:

<< 
 The only other similar framework for saying kinot in such a quality
 way that I know of was the Tisha b'Av t'fila at Maimonides School with
 the Rav zt"l in Boston.  I was there one summer and if I recall correctly
 all (or almost all) of the kinot were said -- the Rav simply continued
 until four or five o'clock in the late afternoon.
 
 My question is: does anyone know of (and if so, could they briefly
 describe) any other such frameworks for turning the kinot 
 davening into a "seminar" of sorts for understanding
 the nature of Tisha b'Av and Jewish mourning, Jewish response 
 to suffering and national tragedy, the problem of evil, etc. ?
 
 Kol tuv,
 Shlomo Godick
  >>
On a much lower level, our shul this year had an additional kinot service 
attended by about 50-60 (10 adults the rest high school and college students) 
The kinot went on until about 12:45 with each kinah preceded by a 5-10 minute 
explanation.  I hope we won't have to say them again next year, but this was 
the most moving /informative kinot I've attended.

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

PS it was organized by the local Sr. NCSY advisor at his own initiative 2 
days before tisha bav

In v3n136, RYGB writes:
:                     The conversation actually then turned to what part of
: the liturgy is uplifting and inspirational to respective individuals. But,
: Rabbosai, davening is not a mitzva ma'asis!

Tefilah s avodah shebaleiv; it exists to move. Of course it's more likely
to be on people's liksts than mitzvos ma'asiyos.

For me, putting tzitzis on in the morning, and noting it during the day. I'm
not sure if that's because of the decision to wear techeiles. More likely,
it's a product of studying halachah and ta'amei hamitzvah when I had to
decide /how/ to wear techeiles.

Arba minim also has some power for me, thanks to hearing R' Aryeh Kaplan turn
it into a meditative experience.

Note that what both of these things share is that I had studied ta'amei
hamitzvah.

Also, one poster who replied by email so as to remain anonymous wrote that he
is most uplifted when he delivers food and conversation to the local needy
people. I'm sure this is true for many who are involved in tomchei Shabbos,
bikkur cholim, the chevrah, etc..

: In fact, I think we scions of the Misnagdic/Chassidic worlds find mitzvos
: ma'asiyos a bit of a hassle (who enjoys shopping for Arba Minim and then
: worrying about whether they will remain kosher?), and that is why we find
: most of our sippuk in Torah or Tefilla.

A similar hasslification: timing the teki'os to make sure they're as long
as the teru'ah, shivarim, or shivraim-teru'ah in the middle. Are we going
to argue that worrying about chumros get in the way of avodas Hashem? Or
perhaps we have to choose our chumros more wisely.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 26-Jul-99: Levi, Eikev
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H O"Ch 344:2-345:6
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 13a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Kuzari V 5-8

From: "Daniel B. Schwartz" <SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject: Hesder yeshivos

(>>>And 'Tahkeh',  are Hesder Yeshivos ''real'' yeshivos? How many
Gedolei Yisroel
have they produced in the decades of  their existence?)

>>>        Is that the only way to define the "trueness" of a yeshiva;
by te
number of gedolim it produces?   ...Do yeshivit exist simply for the
sake of
producing gedolim, or do we support them for the sakes of Torah and klal

Yisrael?

When the late chief rabbi of Jerusalem Rabbi Bezalel Zolti visited
Melbourne about
15 years ago, he asked one of the leading Lubavitch rabbonim here a
similar
question: ie Lubavitch was the first Chassidic yeshiva to be established
in the US -
(pre-WW2 and well  before Satmar, Bobov etc) - how many Gedolei Yisroel
have
they produced?"

If the question was valid for him, it's valid for me.

On Mon, 26 Jul 1999, Micha Berger wrote:

> A similar hasslification: timing the teki'os to make sure they're as
> long as the teru'ah, shivarim, or shivraim-teru'ah in the middle. Are we
> going to argue that worrying about chumros get in the way of avodas
> Hashem? Or perhaps we have to choose our chumros more wisely. 
>

Becoming a Shul Rabbi did away with Teki'as Shofer for me. The thoughts
tht pre-occupy the mind are counting beats! Like R' Moshe Feldman, my
personal hisalus in this regard comes from the divrei hisorerus (more
Torah!) I am priveleged to give before Teki'os. 

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

On Tue, 27 Jul 1999, Shlomo Godick wrote:

> Last year, I believe, Rav Leff pointed out that he was going for quality
> rather than quantity, but that anyone was free to be "mashlim" the
> remaining kinot in his free time. 
> 
> The only other similar framework for saying kinot in such a quality way
> that I know of was the Tisha b'Av t'fila at Maimonides School with the
> Rav zt"l in Boston.  I was there one summer and if I recall correctly
> all (or almost all) of the kinot were said -- the Rav simply continued
> until four or five o'clock in the late afternoon. 
>

This year in our Shul we did an Abridged Kinos based on my notes from
Maimonides in 1980 and from Mattiyahu last year. The participants that
commented to me all said positive things. If someone (perhaps you
yourself, R' Shlomo?) has notes from Mattiyahu (or some other venue) this
year and could provide me with a copy, in case R"L we still have to say
Kinos next 9 Av, I would be most appreciative. 

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

I am not familiar with what's going on in Israel concerning the referenced
topic. I gather someone wants to get a head start on the "u-va-aish ata
aseed leev-nosa."
As I recall, there is a machlokes Rambam and Ra-avad on whether there
remains kedushas mikdash to this day. R' Schachter at YU frequently (means
often enough for me to remember) mentioned that in the middle ages and
earlier Jews went onto the Har Habayis to daven.  I conclude someone took a
position on this and that Jews conducted themselves accordingly.
Second, could RYGB elaborate on issur me'eelah issue. Would a tnai help? Any
other ideas to make the enterprise (whatever it is) muttar?

NW

Aren't you confusing this with saying BRACHOT 100 times a day (as per the
gemara in Menachot 43b) ?

Josh

A mature intelligent individual informed me that in a column in the July 16,
1999 issue of THE FORWARD, that newspaper had published fifty years earlier
to the day (or week) the following: German documents that had come to light
(in 1949) revealed that, in 1938, then Ambassador Joe Kennedy told the
Germans that he understands Germany's position with respect to the Jews and
that the "Jewish Question" was in the interest of both the Germans and the
Americans.  (In short, the implication was that the ambassador was an
anti-Semite and/or a Nazi sympathizer.) The July 16/99 issue of THE FORWARD
went to press when JFK, Jr. was *still alive.* Okay, so middah kenegged
middah can take 50 years.

I shared with that person the thought that there was a curse by a rebbe as
has been posted on list.  She responded a) it was inapprpriate to attribute
the curse to someone in particular without being sure and b) that it was not
wise from a Jewish interest to make the information public due to the
likelihood of an anti-Semitic outrage.

That said, she suggested that a letter be sent to Senator Lieberman to
convey the idea to Senator Edward Kennedy that he go to a rebbe to ask
mechila.

I have recently heard it said that the Kennedy family had a commercial
interest in the production of Zyklon B.

Reactions and suggestions by list participants are invited.

NW

Long time chaveirim know I have a problem with metaphysical causes (as opposed
to teloses) that aren't about s'char va'onesh. I'm therefore not all that
impartial. That said...

I remembered the curse (before all this started) being that Joe would outlive
his sons.

Which would mean that this most recent death would weigh in /against/
the curse. It shows that the Kennedy culture leads its men to do stupid,
life-threatening, things -- with or without curses.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 27-Jul-99: Shelishi, Eikev
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H O"Ch 345:7-13
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 13b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Kuzari V 9-12

> 
>> The Agudah wanted to have a fast day in the 1930s because of the  worsening
>> roclamation of the fast. The rav from Munkacz refused on the grounds
>> that German Jewry deserved what was happening to them as the overwhelming
>> majority of German Jews were not religious. He was sure that Nazism
>> would not affect east European jewry since they were religious !!!
> 
>> Could you state the source for this statement. It sounds like a terrible
>> slur on one of the greatest Gaonim and Tzadikim of the last generation.
> 
I accept the advice of Daniel Eidensohn and shall hopefully refrain
from discussing individuals. However, since the question of the
teshuva of the  rav from Munkacz was raised let me respond.

     The responsa is by Rabbi Hayyim Eleazar Shapira of Munkacs
(1872-1937) and was written in Solvakia, 1933. It appears in his
responsa Minchat Eliezer volume 5 #36. It has been translated into
English in the book "Rabbinic Responsa of the Holocaust Era" by Robert
Krischner, Schocken Books.  Below are selected quotes from the English
translation, see the original or the translation for more details.

      Rabbi Shapira had a large hasidic following and was considered a
major posek and expert in kabbala 
He was a controversial person. Among other deeds he put a
cherem on Rabbi Issacher Rokeach the Admor from Belz. He also had
continuing fights with the zionists.

      Because of an economic boycott organized by the nazis against
Jewish businesses it was suggested that a fast be held to pray for their
safety.  Many rabbis including Rabbi Shapira were asked to sign the
proclamation. The responsa is his negative reply to this request.

portions of the responsa (from the translation by Krischner) -

      ... But the legions of the devil, among them the hypocritical
leaders including many rabbis and others who have led Israel astray. For
their main goal is only to pray for the welfare of the gentile nations
and other such foolishness. ... But they [i.e. the German Jews] denied
and overturned the words of the living G-d; even if one says that he
believes in the coming of the Messiah, if he does not await the
Messiah's coming he denies [the G-d of Israel]... In any event I thought
that when [the Nazis] imposed the boycott in Germany against Jewish
businesses, this was certainly not a reason to ordain a fast. For nearly
all [of the Jews] in Germany profane the Sabbath publicly by [keeping]
their stores [open]. Now they are being paid back measure for measure
 ... If the German Jews do not repent their sin of profaning the Sabbath
then [to ordain a public fast] would be to reinforce their behavior of
profaning the Sabbath.  ...
      Now that the Nazis have cast off the veil of everlasting shame
from their faces, there is a real danger to life in our country, Poland,
Hungary,...
      But I cannot consent to sign my name to the proclamation ... Will
the Zionists, Mizrahists, Agudists and the like return to G-d and his
religion?
      Our sages said in Ker (6b) that a fast in which none of the
sinners of Israel participates is no fast. We learn this from the
galbanum which is one of the ingredients of the incense. This means that
the sinners of Israel may comprise only one tenth of those who
fast... But our case does not warrant a worldwide fast for those wicked
[German] Jews are known to be nearly as numerous as we are.
~

kol tuv,
Eli Turkel

Reb Shlomo Godick Asks "My question is: does anyone know of (and if so,
could they briefly describe) any other such frameworks for turning the kinot
davening into a "seminar" of sorts for understanding the nature of Tisha
b'Av and Jewish mourning, Jewish response to suffering and national tragedy,
the problem of evil, etc.?"

Look on www.OU.org for my father's (Rav Tzvi Hersh Weinreb) Tisha B'av video.
He has been doing a similar program in his Shul Shomrei Emunah in Baltimore
for many years. The OU has been selling a videotape of the Kinos for the past
two years. There are several hundred people there each year. Shaul Weinreb

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Harav YGB writes "In fact, I think there are very few of us who are turned
on by Arba Minim, Tefillin, Tzitzis, Shilu'ach Ha'Ken, Pidyon Petter Chamor
(I'm naming at random). I am told that some women are really inspired by
Hadlokas Neiros Shabbos v'Yom Tov, but when I had to do it in Yeshiva,
it wasn't the high point of my week."

We discussed this in private, but that is one thing that Chassidus actually
tried to fix in many ways, notably the LeShem Yichud. I strongly recommend
reading the teshuva written by HaRav Chaim Chernovtzer (the Beer Mayim
Chaim, Sidduro Shel Shabbos, Veod) in his teshuva to the Noda Beyehuda
re the Leshem Yichud. There you will find that one of the most important
missions of Chassidus was to inject spirtuality into mitzvos maasiyos.
I can lend you my copy if you would like.

Shaul Weinreb

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Reb Shlomo Abeles asks "And 'Tahkeh', are Hesder Yeshivos ''real''
yeshivos? How many Gedolei Yisroel have they produced in the decades of
their existence?"

My, that is a question packed with implications, I will try my hardest
to hold my tongue. But let me ask you How many gedolay yisrael have been
produced by ANY yeshiva in these past four decades? If you can find them
please introduce them to me.

Of course, they are out there somewhere, Lo alman yisrael, but I certainely
don't think that any one yeshiva type has been extraordinarily successful
at producing them.

Shaul weinreb

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--- SBA <sba@blaze.net.au> wrote:
> 
> (>>>And 'Tahkeh',  are Hesder Yeshivos ''real'' yeshivos? How many
> Gedolei Yisroel
> have they produced in the decades of  their existence?)

My guess is that--per capita--no fewer than the charedi yeshivot.

Remember, the Hesder Yeshivot were very small & few in sixties and
early seventies.  Even today, there are not that many hesdernikim. 
So if we compare the couple thousand who attended Hesder yeshivot
from the late seventies until today to the tens of thousands who
attended charedi yeshivot during the same time period, you will
probably end up with the same number of gedolim percentagewise.

Of course, the $64,000 question is--have any gedolim been produced by
any yeshiva during the last 20 years?  This hearkens back to previous
(flame-throwing?) discussions as to whether the charedi world is more
likely to crown someone as a gadol than the Hesder world (which is
more critical of its leaders).

I think that the more relevant question regarding yeshivot is: how
many talmidei chakhamim have they produced?  After all, yeshivot
teach learning.  Gedolim generally arise as a result of many factors,
the yeshiva in which they learned being only one.

As to talmidei chakhamim: I have been truly impressed with some of
the products of yeshivot hesder.  In contrast, many of the charedi
yeshivot emphasize learning much material, but don't teach their
talmidim how to think.  This past Pesach, I sat in a room full of
senior kollel yungeleit in Israel listening to a shiur by one of
them.  Somehow, I was the only one to find multiple holes in the
argument.  And this phenomemon repeated itself throughout my stay
with my charedi relatives.

Kol tuv,
Moshe
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Can this tshuvah be obtained on the Bar Ilan CD ROM?  Which tshuvah
#?

--- "sweinr1@icarus.cc.uic.edu" <sweinr1@icarus.cc.uic.edu> wrote:
> Harav YGB writes "In fact, I think there are very few of us who are
> turned
> on by Arba Minim, Tefillin, Tzitzis, Shilu'ach Ha'Ken, Pidyon
> Petter Chamor
> (I'm naming at random). I am told that some women are really
> inspired by
> Hadlokas Neiros Shabbos v'Yom Tov, but when I had to do it in
> Yeshiva,
> it wasn't the high point of my week."
> 
> We discussed this in private, but that is one thing that Chassidus
> actually
> tried to fix in many ways, notably the LeShem Yichud. I strongly
> recommend
> reading the teshuva written by HaRav Chaim Chernovtzer (the Beer
> Mayim
> Chaim, Sidduro Shel Shabbos, Veod) in his teshuva to the Noda
> Beyehuda
> re the Leshem Yichud. There you will find that one of the most
> important
> missions of Chassidus was to inject spirtuality into mitzvos
> maasiyos.
> I can lend you my copy if you would like.
> 
> Shaul Weinreb
> 
>
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> This message has been posted from Mail2Web
> (http://www.mail2web.com/)
> Web Hosting for $9.95 per month! Visit:
> (http://www.yourhosting.com/)
>
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> 

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CONSEQUENCES OF Y2K FOR ISRAELI SABBATH 
The halakhic [Jewish-legal] aspects of the Y2K computer bug will be among
the topics to be researched by a ministerial committee.  The Prime Minister
yesterday instructed his top aide Yossi Kucik to convene a committee that
will coordinate the various ministries' efforts on the Y2K matter.  "The
committee should look into the Jewish-legal issue as well," Infrastructures
Minister Eli Suissa (Shas) said today.  Suissa noted that Jan. 1, 2000 will
fall on a Saturday, and the possible life-threatening dangers that may
result may make it necessary to grant special permits for Sabbath work.  "I
am not a halakhic authority," Suissa said, "but it is likely that the
rabbis will rule it permissible to work in hospitals, security forces, the
electric company, and the like specifically for this problem...  I have
consulted with Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef and with the Chief Rabbis, and they will
have to decide if and to whom to issue work permits on that Shabbat."

I am vaguely aware of a controversy regarding the true location of Kever
Rachel. My scant knowledge of the evidence that the present location might
not be genuine is as follows.

1) The Jews being led to Bavel at the time of the first Churban passed Kever
Rachel on the way, where Rachel Ime'nu interceded with Hashem on their
behalf. This would mean that Kever Rachel would have to be on an east-west road.

2) This location was called "Ramah" not "Beit Lehem"

3) Yaakov's family was on the way to Hevron when Rachel died in childbirth
"while there was yet a 'Kivrat Haaretz'  to get to Bet Lehem".  This would
suggest that the Kever  indeed was on a north- south road, but a significant
distance from Bet Lehem.

Based on this information, one might conclude that Ramah was located at the
intersection of an east-west road leading to Bavel with a north south road
leading to Bet Lehem. 

Could someone fill in more details or present other evidence one way or the
other? 

Arnie Lustiger

On Mon, 26 Jul 1999, Noah Witty wrote:

> As I recall, there is a machlokes Rambam and Ra-avad on whether there
> remains kedushas mikdash to this day. R' Schachter at YU frequently
> (means often enough for me to remember) mentioned that in the middle
> ages and earlier Jews went onto the Har Habayis to daven.  I conclude

The Binyan Tziyon and Mishpat Kohen are the ones who argue that even
according to the Ra'avad it is forbidden to go on Har ha'Bayis, it is just
not a chiyuv kareis. I nteh Techumin essay R' Shilat discusses the
tradition of Jews going on the HhB in the Middle Agers and laregley
discounts it or finds it mostly non-duplicatable today.

> accordingly.  Second, could RYGB elaborate on issur me'eelah issue. 
> Would a tnai help? Any other ideas to make the enterprise (whatever it
> is) muttar?
>

Since it is all talui b'da'as ha'makdish, it would not help for the
"gizbar" to make a tenai. 

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

At R' AF's request I am forwarding the attached material for him.

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:33:32 -0400
From: Aryeh Frimer <Aryeh.Frimer@grc.nasa.gov>
To: Rabbi@lerc.nasa.gov.Yosef.G.Bechhofer <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>
Subject: Bal Tosif and upgrading issurim

Dear Rabbi Bechhofer,
        I am presently working in Cleveland. Would you be so kind as to
forward this for me to Avodah. 
                Thanks in Advance
                        Aryeh

        Regarding Bal Tosif and upgrading issuring, see at length the
discussion in our paper 0n "Womens Prayer Services" in Tradition, 32:2
(Winter 1998), pp.  5-118 - Addenda 5 and 6. Bal tosif is not the only
issue; there is also the matter of lying.  This question came into
prominence as a result of the famous Pesak Din promulgated by a conference
of rabbis who met in Michalowce Hungary in 1865. This Pesak Din, initially
signed by twenty-five leading rabbinic figures and subsequently by many
more, ruled that nine practices (including synagogue choirs, sermons in
the vernacular, synagogues weddings, absence of a central bima, canonical
robes for the Hazan) were halakhically forbidden. Rabbis Moses Schick and
Esriel Hildesheimer and many of their colleagues refused to sign The
fundamental claim of Rabbis Schick and Hildesheimer was that, contrary to
the impression given by the Pesak Din, the only grounds for some of the
edicts were public policy (migdar milta) - not halakhic - considerations.
The term “Pesak Din” (legal ruling) was in fact a conscious misnomer, an
attempt to hide the truth, and, hence, a flagrant deviation from Jewish
law with which they could take no part.  R. Schick also argued that, since
the Pesak Din was promulgated by a Jewish court, it violated bal tosif.
See: R. Moses Schick in Likutei Teshuvot Hatam Sofer, R. Israel Stern, ed.
(London, 1965), sec. 82, pp. 73-75;  Meir Hildesheimer, “She’eilot
u-Teshuvot Maharam Schick,” Tsefunot, 2:2(6)  (Tevet 5750), pp. 87-95, at
p. 93; Yona Emanuel, “Me’a Shana lePetirat haRav Azriel Hildesheimer
Zatsal,” haMa’ayn, XXXIX, 4 (Tammuz 5759), pp. 1-7, “Al Kinus haRabbanim
be-Mikhalovitch” pp. 2-4; Michael K. Silber, “The Emergence of
Ultra-Orthodoxy: The Invention of a Tradition,” In The Uses of Tradition,
Jack Wertheimer, ed. (New York, Jewish Theological Seminary, 1992), p.
23-84;  Mordechai Eliav, “Mekomo shel Rav Azriel Hildesheimer be-Ma’avak
al Demutah shel Yahadutr Hungariah,” Zion 27 (1962), 59-86; Nethanel
Katzburg, “Pesak Din shel Michalovitch 5726,” in Perakim be-Toldot
ha-Hevrah ha-Yehudit be-Yemei ha-Beinayim u-be-Et ha-Hadashah, Emanuel
Etkes and Yosef Salmon, eds.  (Jerusalem: Magnes, 1980), 273-286. 

Kindly include my son  Yaakov Yehudah ben Esther Alta  in you prayers.
                                Aryeh Frimer <Aryeh.Frimer@grc.nasa.gov>
 

--- Arnold Lustiger <alustig@erenj.com> wrote:
> 1) The Jews being led to Bavel at the time of the first Churban
> passed Kever
> Rachel on the way, where Rachel Ime'nu interceded with Hashem on
> their
> behalf. This would mean that Kever Rachel would have to be on an
> east-west road.

There is no east-west road leading from Yerushalayim to Bavel.  You
go north, then east.  Remember Yirmiyahu's prophecy--"mitzafon
tipatach ha'ra'a."  So, this would mean that kever rachel is north of
Yerushalayim (assuming that the midrash was talking about the
captives of Yerushalayim; Rabbi Menachem Leibtag assumes that it is).

Another source:
When Shaul was looking for his asses (atonot), he looked in eretz
binyamin (north of Yerushalayim).  He was told by Shmuel that he
would find them b'gvul binyamin, at kever rachel.  See Shmuel I 10:2.
 Now, Yerushalayim is the southern border of Binyamin.  So it is
unlikely that any point south of Yerushalayim could qualify.

Rabbi Leibtag mentioned these sources in a shiur he gave some years
ago, and concluded that kever rachel is not in bet lechem of today.

Kol tuv,
Moshe
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