Avodah Mailing List

Volume 03 : Number 088

Saturday, June 12 1999

• Re: Avos 4:28 questions -- errata
• Reality and Halachah (was re: Chazal and Metzius)
• Chazal and Science
• Re: chazal and science
• Re: Avos 4:21 questions
• Re: chazal and science
• Chazal and Science
• Chazal and Science
• Re: Avodah V3 #87: Chazal and metizus

I wrote:
>              I secured permission from Avi Felblum, the list owner
> to repost it here. For more information about mail-jewish, write Avi
> at owner-mail-jewish@aishdas.org.  -MB]

That's a typo. Avi is at owner-mail-jewish@shamash.org -- not here at AishDas.

Sorry.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 11-Jun-99: Shishi, Sh'lach
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H O"Ch 325:32-326:6
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Eruvin 94a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Haftorah

R' Chaim Brown writes:
: In other words, halacha is divorced from physical reality - it is artificial, 
: sollopsistic.

One could reach a similar conclusion from another discussion going on here.
Shinui sheim, (for example, from "paper" to fax"?) is considered nolad? Isn't
that subjective as well?

I would make a weaker claim than the one Chaim is rejecting. Not that halachah
is altogether divorced from physical reality, but that it is subject to man's
perception of reality.

So, if the reality change puts the item from one pigeonhole to another, it's
halachically significant.

Related to this could be the reason why bugs that are too small to be seen (and
perhaps their eggs) have no mamashus -- they have no perceptual reality. (I
won't say existential this time, Kafka aside. <grin>)

Or, for that matter, the concept of chazakah dimei'ikara implies that if an
event has no observer, no subjective reality to anyone, it doesn't exist --
despite a rov!

Speaking of rov, the whole difference between kol diparish meirubah parish and
kol kavu'ah kimechtza al metchtza dami is whether the reality ever entered the
subjective realm. Kavu'ah means someone observed the state before the doubt
arose.

Which all ties back to the t'mimus & d'veikus issue. Since both aspects of
"ki zeh kol ha'adam" are about changes in the person. So of course halachah
is more concerned about events that have impact on people than those that
might be objectively real but with no subjective component.

Buenas Shabbat!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 11-Jun-99: Shishi, Sh'lach
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H O"Ch 325:32-326:6
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Eruvin 94a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Haftorah

CB: >>Do you have a shred of evidence that would prove this?<

I eye witnessed martial arts masters shatter bricks and stones with their bare 
hands after "expert" physicists "proved" how it was impossible to do so.

We could mention aggeditos of burning vingar instead of oil, or of poisonous 
snakes dying when biting isntead of their intended victims, or brass snakes 
preventing people from dying, or of ketores prventing plagues, or of the 10 
nissim in the BhM, or kefitzas haderech, or of gamlo parcho, etc.  But I'll 
leave them as metaphors for now. <smile>

Rich Wolpoe

It is in the Nishmas Avrohom vols. 4-5 and in the new volume of Minchas
Shlomo. He says. simply, since we know not when the soul leaves the body
other than by respiration ceasing, that is the only scale of measure we
can follow.

What machashovo or kabbala is there in this?

On Fri, 11 Jun 1999, Moshe Feldman wrote:

> Please elaborate.  Which tshuvah?  What exactly did he say?
> 
> Let me also point out that those who look at signs of life do agree
> that the lack of signs of life is an indicator that the soul has left
> the body.  However, unlike R. Weiner, they pay attention only to the
> physical signs and do not use machshavah/kabbalah to theorize about
> when the soul leaves the body.
> 
> Kol tuv,
> Moshe
> 
> 
> --- "Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer"
> <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
> > On Fri, 11 Jun 1999, Moshe Feldman wrote:
> > 
> > > 
> > > In fact, your position seems to be that of Rabbi Yaakov Weiner
> > (author
> > > of Rapo Yerape; see that book for a radical shittah based on the
> > soul
> > > leaving the body at a different time when there is a traumatic
> > death as
> > > opposed to when a person is on a respirator).  It is my
> > impression that
> > > most who discuss this issue look only at whether all sign of life
> > have
> > > disappeared (and disagree whether those signs include brain stem
> > death). 
> > > 
> > 
> > My position is that of RSZ Auerbach.
> > 
> > YGB
> > 
> > Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
> > Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
> > ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> 
> 

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

On Fri, 11 Jun 1999, Michael Poppers wrote:

>      (c) Who exactly is Rabbi Elazar HaKapor? and (d) are any other oral
> traditions/laws attributed to him? 
> 

He is a Tanna that shows up mostly in Aggadata. In Katzrin, in the Golan,
the "Keisarin" of the Talmud (most scholars blew this one thinking it to
have been Caeseria) they found a lintel from a Beis Medrash that has
engraved in it: "Zehu Beis Medrasho shel R' Elazar HaKapor." Very moving
to see it!

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

--- "Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer"
<sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:
> It is in the Nishmas Avrohom vols. 4-5 and in the new volume of
> Minchas
> Shlomo. He says. simply, since we know not when the soul leaves the
> body
> other than by respiration ceasing, that is the only scale of
> measure we
> can follow.

This is completely within the mainstream (as I understand it).

> 
> What machashovo or kabbala is there in this?

None.  Your original formulation sounded more radical (and reminded
me of R. Weiner's position, which I believe to be radical since it
uses machshavah/kabbalah to determine when the soul leaves the body
and draws halachic conclusions from that).

Kol tuv,
Moshe
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

>>and people will come to mock
the words of Hazal when their medicines don't work.<<

Question: Did the Kameias of the mekubbolim actually work?

Rich Wolpoe

CB: >>The cardinal principle of science is that the truth of any hypothesis is 
to be tested by observation. <<

Didn't Werner Heisenberg observe that the observation of the observed might  
obscure it's behavior? <smile>

On a psychological level, wouldn't the beliefs, mindset, frame-of-reference, 
culture, zeitgeist, expereinces, prejudices, reputations etc. influence the 
INTERRPETATION of what is being observed?

Humor Alert: (taken from Dale Carnegie I believe)

An anti-drinking advocate did a demonstration of the evils of demon rum.  He 
took a live worm, dropped it into a glass of alcohol, and the worm dissolved.

A drunk in the audience concluded: "drinking alcohol will rid you of worms".

Rich Wolpoe  

>Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 10:57:35 -0400
>From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
>Subject: Chazal and metizus
>
>
>Hypthoesis: Chazal were 3,000 years had of their time scientifically spekaing.
>
>I invite anyone to PROVE, using the scientific method, that Chazal were NOT
>ahead of us.
>

Please prove to me that you are NOT a Martian.

hg


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