Avodah Mailing List

Volume 02 : Number 037

Thursday, October 29 1998

• Re: Gadol hametzuveh vi'oseh
• Re: Minhagim and shuls
• Re: Orthodoxy and feminism - Aveiro Lishmo
• Re: Ma'akeh and Dina d'Malchusa Dina
• Re: Ma'akeh and Dina d'Malchusa Dina
• YU, TV, femisim - sanctimonious self-righteousness at its best
• Ma'akeh
• Re: YU, TV, femisim - sanctimonious self-righteousness at its best
• Re: Avodah V2 #33
• Maakeh and Yeshiva
• Changing the Topic #1: Orthodoxy and Feminism
• Re: Maakeh
• Re: Ma'akeh
• Re: Changing the Topic #1: Orthodoxy and Feminism
• Re: Orthodoxy and Feminism
• Re: Shomer psa'im
• Re[2]: Shomer psa'im
• RE: Changing the Topic #1: Orthodoxy and Feminism
• Re: Aku"m
• Re: Maakeh and Yeshiva
• R' Chaim and Pesachim 68b
• Re: YU, TV, femisim - sanctimonious self-righteousness at its best
• What is the practice in your shul?
• Orthodoxy and Feminism
• Women's Prayer Groups
• Sorry to do this to you all, but: Women as Ponim Chadashos
• Re: Women's Prayer Groups
• Re: Ma'akeh

In a message dated 10/28/98 11:37:38 AM EST, micha@aishdas.org writes:

> The "eino metzuveh" isn't commanded because it is less critical
>  for her path to her ideal.

And in some cases it can distract and Fardrei the goal (e.g. Rambam TT 1:13).
  
>  BTW, note it says the metzuveh -- the person -- is greater, not the
>  asiyah. Which implies the relevant difference is in the deed's impact on
its
>  respective participants.


U' Lhoir Memamar Chazal Kol Shegodol Meichaveroy Yitzroy Gidoyloh Mimenu.


Kol Tuv


Yitzchok

     I know of at least one shul which has a definite minhog, and theat 
     minhog mathces no one individual (including and espeically the Rov's)
     
     Now one MIGHT say that it's a compromise minhog, in this case it does 
     not appear to be the case.  Some one early on setup the minhog and 
     left town, and the shul has a most interesting minhag/nusach, but I 
     cannot tie it to any source.
     
     I was curious with regard to this case, where the minhog wast osay 
     yotzros, and then they stop saying them.  What would be a leigtimate 
     reason to cease?  I will BEH consult that Igros Moshes you 
     mentioned...
     Richard_Wopoe@IBI.COM


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
  Once a shul has a nusach (davens Nusach Ashkenaz, for instance), it should be 
difficult to
change it -- there have been many shuls I have been in where the rav differs 
a different tefillah than the congregation.
     

In a message dated 10/28/98 5:47:48 PM EST, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com writes:

> Would the 250 makrivei Ketores be categorized as doing an "aviro 
>       lishmo"??

While there the Torah calls them Hachatoi'm Bnafshosom (even the Nefesh), See
the Ohr Hachayim Hakodosh on Nodov V'avihu.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok

In fact, many Poskim hold that financial liability bein Yisroel l'Yisroel
is also shaped by Dina d'Malchusa.

On Wed, 28 Oct 1998 Yzkd@aol.com wrote:

> I wouldn't use American law as any yardstick of financial liability,
> much less so for liability of not being M'kayeim the Mitzvas Maakeh. 
> 

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

In a message dated 10/28/98 6:47:35 PM EST, sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
writes:

> In fact, many Poskim hold that financial liability bein Yisroel l'Yisroel
>  is also shaped by Dina d'Malchusa.
>  
That is where there is an issue of understanding i.e Tagrei Lud, or Kaad and
Chovi'is etc. but to create a form of liability is different.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok

As I wrote on old Bais Tefilla with regard to the Lubavitch issues - since N.
Lamm (or in the former case, the lof Lubavitch) isn't reading this list, aside
from venting, what is the toelet of bashing YU?  Did anyone in their self-
righteousness bother to pen a letter to N. Lamm or the Commentator - not that
that would help, but it would at least be the right forum to discuss the idea
so that I don't have to exercise the delete key as much.  I see things have
now moved on to better targets, i.e. feminism.  I know, this serves the public
interest of informing us of the world's evils.  Do I sound annoyed enough : -
)?  

I few weeks ago I came across the ptur of ma'akeh for a bet knesset and was
perturbed - if it is a sakanah, why the ptur?  I later found that the Emek
Bracha brings this as a proof (among others) that ma;akeh is a gezeirat
hakatuv not directly associated with sakkanah - i.e. sakanah may be a nice
reason, but it is not the 'geder' of the mitzva, see Hi. Chol Hamoed where he
discusses it. 

-CB

No one bashed YU, don't get defensive.

The purpose of such discussion, in any event, is birur ha'emes l'ma'an
ha'emes. Many sugyos we learn have no nafka mina except birur ha'emes.
That is enough of a nafka mina.

On Wed, 28 Oct 1998 C1A1Brown@aol.com wrote:

> As I wrote on old Bais Tefilla with regard to the Lubavitch issues -
> since N.  Lamm (or in the former case, the lof Lubavitch) isn't reading
> this list, aside from venting, what is the toelet of bashing YU?  Did
> anyone in their self- righteousness bother to pen a letter to N. Lamm or
> the Commentator - not that that would help, but it would at least be the
> right forum to discuss the idea so that I don't have to exercise the
> delete key as much.  I see things have now moved on to better targets,
> i.e. feminism.  I know, this serves the public interest of informing us
> of the world's evils.  Do I sound annoyed enough : - )? 
> 

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

>In B'rachos 10a, Yeshaiah berates Chizkiah for not having children. 
>(And assigns this as the cause of Chizkiah's illness.)
	I wonder how Chizkiah's putting away the Sefer Refuos fits in here.

Gershon

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Rabbi Bechhofer wrote <<< the rationale to exempt a Yeshiva from a
ma'akeh is that it is a chovas gavra, and there is no gavra one can
pinpoint as required to put one up on a public roof. >>>

My understanding was that mezuza is also a chovas gavra, but somehow, the
yeshiva found plenty of people to donate and put up the mezuzos on the
beis medrash and elsewhere.

Akiva Miller

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Rabbi Bechhofer quoted a speaker from the "Religious Zionism and Modern
Orthodoxy" Conference as saying:

<<< "If women preserve the boundaries on every issue but this one, and go
a little beyond it here, we will remain within the Orthodox camp. If we
go beyond the boundaries in every area, that is a different story." >>>

Rabbi Bechhofer asked on that idea, <<< Is this aveirah lishma or plain
aveirah? >>>

My reaction is very different. It seems that the person quoted places a
degree of importance on "remaining within the Orthodox camp". Personally,
I do not find that objective to be of any importance whatsoever. I don't
care whether or not I can be classified as Orthodox. It is much more
important that I should be classified as Shomer Mitzvos. THAT is a goal
to strive for!

Akiva Miller


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Joel Rich writes:
> Or perhaps the issue is one of shomer psaim hashem(a la R' Moshe's tshuva on
> smoking) and how do you define at what level society's acceptance of a
> particular danger rises to making shomer psaim inoperative?

But smoking isn't assur mideoraita by an explicit uncontested verse, so
how is it analogous?  And would you consider people who work on the
roof, e.g. telephone/power company, or in Israel a hot-water-heater
person, or a roofer, as pesaim?  It's hardly a foolish profession if
one takes precautions, and if there's a mitzvah to put up a maakeh,
it should be reasonable for these tradesmen to expect that there will
be a safety-net (safety-fence?) as backup for whatever precautions
they take.

	Jonathan Baker
	jjbaker@panix.com
	"It's not 'Mister Cheshvan'..."

     Fantastic and  now can we can ignore the kosuv's point ki Yipol 
     hanofeil memimenu and JUST focus on v'osiso maakeh legagecho?!
     
     Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


I few weeks ago I came across the ptur of ma'akeh for a bet knesset and was 
perturbed - if it is a sakanah, why the ptur?  I later found that the Emek 
Bracha brings this as a proof (among others) that ma;akeh is a gezeirat 
hakatuv not directly associated with sakkanah - i.e. sakanah may be a nice 
reason, but it is not the 'geder' of the mitzva, see Hi. Chol Hamoed where he 
discusses it. 
     
-CB
     
     
     

     While I'm not a proponent of bending Halocho let me say this,
     few if any of us are 100% shomer mitzvos.  One person it might be 
     loshon horo, another might be some other flaw.
     
     If a women's ONLY weakness/flaw were fenisits deviations, she might be 
     doing an aveiro but still be considered frum.  one aveiro is 1 aveiro; 
     it's not right but I don't think it's fair to heneceforth lable them 
     as non_orthodox or non-shomer Mitzvos.  It probably wouls be valid to 
     label them as chot'os...
     
     Then again chizkiyohu - tsaddik - was chotei (albiet beeshei v'al 
     taaseh) by not doing piryo v'rivyoh
     
     And Shaul failed to execute Agog.  
     
     People can be wrong without and still be loyal to Torah and Mitzvos
     
     Regard,
     Rich Wolpoe
     
      


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________



Rabbi Bechhofer quoted a speaker from the "Religious Zionism and Modern 
Orthodoxy" Conference as saying:
     
<<< "If women preserve the boundaries on every issue but this one, and go 
a little beyond it here, we will remain within the Orthodox camp. If we 
go beyond the boundaries in every area, that is a different story." >>>
     
Rabbi Bechhofer asked on that idea, <<< Is this aveirah lishma or plain 
aveirah? >>>
     
My reaction is very different. It seems that the person quoted places a 
degree of importance on "remaining within the Orthodox camp". Personally, 
I do not find that objective to be of any importance whatsoever. I don't 
care whether or not I can be classified as Orthodox. It is much more 
important that I should be classified as Shomer Mitzvos. THAT is a goal 
to strive for!
     
Akiva Miller
     
     
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html 
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     Question:  Who (i.e. what group) was the first to burn Jewish Books?


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


     
Just a few issues back we were dealing with aveirah lishma and noted 
that the Rogachover himself was doing things different then halacha.  We 
still call him, and he was a tzadik. The Ramchal was run out of town and 
his books were banned for centuries; they are now considered main 
stream. There are many more examples. 
It seems that we try to fit things into
     

<<
Or perhaps the issue is one of shomer psaim hashem(a la R' Moshe's tshuva on
smoking) and how do you define at what level society's acceptance of a
particular danger rises to making shomer psaim inoperative?
>>

R. Moshe's tshuva might have been applicable before the dangers of smoking
were well known.  I feel that to rely on it now is to ask for shomer posh'im,
than psa'im, and I don't know that HaShem is so generous with those who show
disregard to known dangers.

Eliyahu

     Question:  A mother is concernd about tghe long term effects of giving 
     her child a new medication, i.e. about a 5 year track record.
     
     the doctor is in favor, but also respects the Mother's concerns.
     
     Is the mother - in absence of any negtaive  data - allowedto rely on 
     shomer ps'aim and let the child tkae the meidcation adn hope for the 
     best?
     
     Regards,
     Richard Wolpoe

The concern isn't that women (as individuals) might deviate. The problem is
a movement, with leaders and conferences and publications, etc. which may be
pushing for deviations. If so, the difference between that and you or I
speaking loshon hora (or any of the mitzvos ashaer dash b'akeivo) is that
the movement is institutionalizing, and thereby legitimizing, those
deviations.

No one gleaned from Chizkiya that pru urvu is no longer mandatory. No one
learned from Shaul that the mitzva of mechiyas amalek was cancelled.

Avi Pechman

> -----Original Message-----
> From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com [mailto:richard_wolpoe@ibi.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 29, 1998 8:40 AM
> To: avodah@aishdas.org
> Subject: Re: Changing the Topic #1: Orthodoxy and Feminism 
> 
> 
>      While I'm not a proponent of bending Halocho let me say this,
>      few if any of us are 100% shomer mitzvos.  One person it 
> might be 
>      loshon horo, another might be some other flaw.
>      
>      If a women's ONLY weakness/flaw were fenisits 
> deviations, she might be 
>      doing an aveiro but still be considered frum.  one 
> aveiro is 1 aveiro; 
>      it's not right but I don't think it's fair to 
> heneceforth lable them 
>      as non_orthodox or non-shomer Mitzvos.  It probably 
> wouls be valid to 
>      label them as chot'os...
>      
>      Then again chizkiyohu - tsaddik - was chotei (albiet 
> beeshei v'al 
>      taaseh) by not doing piryo v'rivyoh
>      
>      And Shaul failed to execute Agog.  
>      
>      People can be wrong without and still be loyal to Torah 
> and Mitzvos
>      
>      Regard,
>      Rich Wolpoe
>      

Richard Wolpoe asked:

<<
When is Akum as used by TB, SA, etc literally mean an Oveid kochovim 
and when does it mean any eino-yehuid in general?
>>

One would have to go back to written manuscripts to see the autthentic version
of the sources.  Unfortunately, the religious censors of Europe changed many
of these very terms to remove uncomfortable halachic conclusions.

Eliyahu Teitz

Not all yeshivos have mezuzos!

And, remember the bottom line! :-)

On Thu, 29 Oct 1998, Kenneth G Miller wrote:

> My understanding was that mezuza is also a chovas gavra, but somehow, the
> yeshiva found plenty of people to donate and put up the mezuzos on the
> beis medrash and elsewhere.

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

The Brisker Rav al haTorah in Vayeira cites a converstation R' Chaim once
had with Chosid. The Chosid asked him: "Why do you misnagdim ask some many
questions and make many pilpulim - the Torah says do this, do this?!"

R' Chaim's response to the Chosid is not recorded, but he went on to say
that, to a certain extent, the Chosid was right. Since we have a principle
that "2 kesuvim ha'machishim zeh es seh - ad she'yavo ha'kasuv ha-3
ve'yachri'a beineihem" - we are *not* allowed to ask a question based on
two pesukim until we have a third kasuv to triangulate and be machri'a -
which is why Avrohom waited until after the Malach told him to stop the
Akeida before asking for a reconciliation between "ki b'Yizchok yikare'a
lecha zara" and "Ha'aleyhu l'Olah."

So, what does R' Chaim do with the 2 kesuvim ha'machishim in Pesachim 68b
- "L'Hashem" and "Lachem?" Seems the Tana'im R' Eliezer and R' Yehoshua
feltt you have to do something!

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer wrote:
> 
> No one bashed YU, don't get defensive.
> Oh, You don't say!
sk

It seems to me that a shul, even if none of its members are careful in 
this regard, should observe certain chumras so that all orchim who 
might visit feel comfortable and be able to eat without question. 
In other words is it the practice in you shul to only serve chalav 
yisrael?  glatt meat? or yoshon? (or maybe only certain shchitas?)
steve

	Yasher koach to Saul Guberman for writing:

>Nothing was sighted (sic) to let us know details as to whether something
>was even an aveirah let alone lishma. What happened to Dan l'chaf zechut?
	      . . .
>My point is, that on the feminism issue people do not empathize with the
>women's' point of view.  It is much easier to say that things are not
>and have not been done this way and therefore it is no good.  This issue
>needs to be looked at from the perspective of there are many women who
>could relate to torah Judaism through this prism.  What can be done here
>and what are the boundaries!

	My guess, based on what I've been reading here, is that not one of
the other correspondents on this issue has ever been, or spoken to anyone
who has ever been, near a women's tefila group.

	First of all, those involved are very careful _not_ to refer to
them as "minyanim," since the women themselves (as well as the halakhic
authorities who permit them) do not consider them as such.  What they do,
in the event that those of you who are so strongly against the idea don't
mind being confused with the facts, is omit those parts of the tefila
which require a minyan - barekhu, kaddish, kedusha, birkot haTorah, etc.
Yes, women daven and leyn, but only for themselves (i.e., not for men),
so there's no problem of an eyna metzuva attempting to be motzi' a
metzuve.

	There _are_ respected halakhic authorities who permit and advise
such groups as to what they are permitted to do and what is forbidden to
them _within the halakha_ - R. Avi Weiss of Riverdale is the first one
who comes to mind.  The rabbi of my shul in Columbus, Ohio has also
sanctioned a women's tefila group, which meets monthly and regularly
draws a couple of dozen women from all of the Orthodox shuls in town.
A number of girls have had their bat mitzvas in this tefila group.  In
addition, there exists an entire network of such groups all over the US
and Canada.

	Wake up and smell the coffee!
-- 
Rick Turkel         (___  _____  _  _  _  _  __     _  ___   _   _  _  ___
rturkel@freenet.columbus)oh.us|   |  \  )  |/  \ eyn |navi| be|iro\__)    |
rturkel@cas.org        /      |  _| __)/   | ___)    | ___|_  |  _(  \    |
Rich or poor, it's good to have money.  Ko rano rani | u jamu pada.

I have a couple of hashkafic problems with such prayer groups.

First, as Rick Turkel writes, they are not, and could never be, minyanim. This
means that the message we are giving these women is: Yes, you are right to
believe that the only way to get spiritual fulfillment is in the mode of
worship traditionally reserved for men. But, you can never really fill that
role -- you can at best have an "almost minyan".

We are setting them up for failure. As soon as the newness of the "almost
minyan" wears off, so will the feeling of spiritual fulfillment.

Second, it would be validating the non-O belief that Judaism revolves around
the synagogue. Jon Baker (or was it his wife?) once pointed out to me that the
three mitzvos that sociologically define Orthodoxy, Shabbos, kashrus, and
taharas hamishpachah are all "women's mitzvos". So of course, non-Orthodox
"Judaisms" can't provide sufficient spiritual context for women.

As R' YB Soloveitchik writes in one of the earlier footnotes to Ish HaHalachah
(sorry, I lost my copy), it is the nature of modern religion to define itself
as a respite from reality. So, churches are built with an otherworldliness, to
provide a spiritual retreat. This is the path Conservative and Reform are
following (in practice, if not in their position papers).

Yiddishkeit, though, (still paraphrasing the footnote) is about the
unification of the spiritual with day-to-day life. If we really felt this,
then the question of who had what role in the synagogue would be a very
unimportant question. If anything us men should be vying for more cooking, so
that we too can increase our role in preparing for Shabbos, and day-to-day
observance of kashrus (at least basar bichalav). <half-grin>

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287    Help free Yehuda Katz, held by Syria 5963 days!
micha@aishdas.org                         (11-Jun-82 - 29-Oct-98)
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.
http://www.aishdas.org -- Orthodox Judaism: Torah, Avodah, Chessed

I know I am beating a ...

But, just found: Yabi'a Omer 6:EH4 d.h. (B)Ve'anochi paskens like the
Shitta Mikubetzes that women can not serve as PC.

Now I will duck and run... :-)

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

In a message dated 98-10-29 13:07:50 EST, you write:

<< From:	micha@aishdas.org (Micha Berger)
 Sender:	owner-avodah@aishdas.org
 Reply-to:	avodah@aishdas.org
 To:	avodah@aishdas.org
 
 I have a couple of hashkafic problems with such prayer groups.
  >>
Micha
I still think that the prayer group issue is the symptom, not the cause.  As a
consultant, clients often say I want you to fix xyz. I always take a deep
breath and then try to find out what is really the problem and usually xyz
isn't it. Hameneen yaveen.

Kol Tuv

Joel Rich

In a message dated 10/28/98 8:00:35 PM EST, C1A1Brown@aol.com writes:

> I few weeks ago I came across the ptur of ma'akeh for a bet knesset and was
>  perturbed - if it is a sakanah, why the ptur? 

While others learn that the Miut of "Gagecho" and not of a BK or BM amounts to
a Gzeiras Hakosuv, the Mechabeir (CM 427) holds it is based on the reason that
it is not used, see SM"A and S"O Horav.

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok

********************


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