Avodah Mailing List

Volume 43: Number 18

Mon, 17 Mar 2025

• 1. Dovid Hamelech had 400 children from yefas toars (Sholom Simon)
• 2. Re: Dovid Hamelech had 400 children from yefas toars (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: tests? (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Yosef advise pharaoh (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: standard measures? (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: skiplagged.com (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: did Achashverosh have multiple wives? (Arie Folger)
• 8. Re: did Achashverosh have multiple wives? (mco...@touchlogic.com)
• 9. Re: did Achashverosh have multiple wives? (Arie Folger)

>
>
> R' Marty Bluke via Avodah asked:
> >> . So how do we understand that Dovid had
> >> 400 children from yefas toars! Did he have such a great yetzer hara that
> >> he couldn't control?
>
> Reb Sruli Bornstein has a fascinating Reid Bite about this. (
> https://pca.st/episode/df681bfc-981f-4b34-ab04-cf4e52a686c9)
>
> He quoted Rav Reuven Margolies zt"l who proposed that this was one of many
> places where numbers were abbreviated and then badly deciphered.
>
> I.e. Dovid Hamelech had ? (Tof) kids from YT. That's short for Tisha, and
> he goes on to show from Divrei Hayomim that indeed there were 9
> "motherless" kids....
>
> - Danny
>

Thanks for the link to the shiur (note to others: it's only 10 minutes --
it's also at https://alldaf.org/p/213657/).  The mention of 9 kids with no
mothers listed in Divrei HaYamim seemed pretty persuasive.

Nevertheless, even with 9, it's still surprising (to me, at least)

As a tangent, I listen to the shiurim by R Sholom Rosner for daf yomi, and
he has pointed out a number of times (I can't remember if this is b'shem
someone else, it probably is) that often the number 400 is used to mean "a
lot", and not mamesh 400.  We do see a number of incidents in the gemara
with 400: R Preida (400 years, 400 times), in Berachos, a wine glass broken
at a wedding worth 400 zuz, 400 benches were added; a court case where 400
barrels of wine were stolen (Bava Metzia), a 400 zuz bet that a guy can
make Hillel angry (Shabbos 31), etc.  FWIW

-- Sholom
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On Sat, Mar 15, 2025 at 10:44:12PM -0400, Sholom Simon via Avodah wrote:
> As a tangent, I listen to the shiurim by R Sholom Rosner for daf yomi, and
> he has pointed out a number of times (I can't remember if this is b'shem
> someone else, it probably is) that often the number 400 is used to mean "a
> lot", and not mamesh 400.  We do see a number of incidents in the gemara
> with 400...

And 400 isn't the only such number. 70 serves a similar role, what
after the 70 nations and the 70 BY who went to Mitzrayim. Which is why
we speak of a court that executes once in 70 years...

Many hunter-gatherer cultures use a word like "many" for any number
someone cannot just know by seeing the set. A quantity that needs
conscious counting.

70 likely implies a bigger number than just that. And I presume that
since 400 is greater than 70, I would think that as an idiom for "many",
400 would imply yet more than an idiomatic 70.

I therefore see R Rosner's point as getting the number of sons of Yefos
Toar down to something that doesn't stretch the imagination. But it still
implies a number far greater than would seem consistent with the author
of most of Tefillim.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 If you can't get beyond your stresses, your
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   problems, and your pain, you can't create
Author: Widen Your Tent      a new future where those things don't exist.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                - Dr. Joe Dispenza

On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 05:55:22AM +0200, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote:
> Rabbi X touched on something that I have thought about a lot over the years
> which is, is it possible that someone is given a test that the best result
> they can achieve is one of imperfection (that the absolute best they can
> achieve is to be a lesser sinner.) For example, if current research is that
> some people have no choice but to have same sex desires...

Wouldn't tinoq shenishba prove that the answer is "yes", and that Hashem
doesn't consider it a failure if the person really did the best they can
achieve?

There is a sevara that tinoq shenishba is simply an instance of oneis
Rachmana patrei, and not an actual halachic category in-and-of itself.
(See R Yochanan and Reish Laqish on Shabbos 68b)


But in any case, there is a bigger challenge... We have no idea when
we are being tested. Maybe someone was facing a challenge they could
not overcome for entirely different reasons. You cannot assess what
Hashem would do based on "what kind of test is that?" if you can never
know if the event is a test, some other kind of learning experience,
and / or something else entirely.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Problems are not stop signs,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   they are guidelines.
Author: Widen Your Tent              - Robert H. Schuller
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

On Sun, Mar 02, 2025 at 02:50:12PM +0200, Danny Schoemann via Avodah wrote:
> R' Joel Rich asked:
> > "Why did Yosef advise  pharaoh   to plan for the seven years of plenty and
> > seven years of famine in a way which would centralize the entire Egyptian
> > economy under the pharaoh's direct control?"
> 
> If you read the story as it's written (not how the ganenet tells it) you
> will see that, with the exception of pharaoh describing the 7+7 cows, it
> doesn't say that the "plentiful years" were gobbled up by the lean years
> without any trace.

In 41:30, Yoseif's intepretation includes "Veqamu sheva shnei ra'av
achareihen venishkakh kol hasava'..."

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Wed, Mar 12, 2025 at 11:22:47AM +0200, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote:
> Is anyone aware of any surveys of when halacha looks to objective measures
> (eg kzait) and when to subjective measures (eg maaleh lugmav)? When we look
> at community "standards" (eg most people buy seeds to eat) and when we look
> to individual's (eg this buyer usually buys to plant)?

About part A, measures...

The AhS says that even an "amah" can be subjective.

If you want to know "4 amos birshus harabbim", use your own forearm.
The only time you use a standard amma is for things like eiurvin or a
sukkah used by multiple people.

So that the standard measure is simply the norm for a large group of
humans, and thus secondary to the idea that measures are basically
personal. Just a way for a din to work for a group.

I don't know what he would do with a kezayis. Would he follow R Chaim
Volozhiner, because the nearest thing to a subjective olive is using
the more available olive in your own region and time?

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy'
http://www.aishdas.org/asp    'Joy is nothing but Torah.'
Author: Widen Your Tent       'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'"
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                   - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l

On Fri, Feb 28, 2025 at 09:15:07AM +0200, Danny Schoemann via Avodah wrote:
> > skiplagged you are lying about your destination to get cheaper tickets
> 
> There is a precedent and recommended practice of lying about your
> destination to a non-Jew.

But... for safety. You would have to show it's allowed when you aren't
acting out of fear and in addition are getting them to agree to making
less money than they would have had you been honest.

It would be like saying that it's okay to lie about how great shape your
car is in to a prosepctive buyer when selling it by citing "kallah na'ah
vachasudah" as "recedent and accepted practice".

I don't see how this is relevent to nidon didan.

>> They have sued skiplagged.com

> That's not a real proof... It may be a great example of yelling after
> Yi'ush.

So? So it's proof of yei'ush. Yei'ush doesn't make geneivas mamon any
less geneivah, never mind geneivas da'as.

>> Chilul Hashem

> If the amount of easily identifiable Yidden skiplagging is disproportionate
> to their % of fliers, then it may be an issue.

> Im Ikesh Titpatol comes to mind.

This argument I hear, since the airlines are perfectly willing to sell
more seats than they have.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 The time you spend comparing yourself to others
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   is much better spent investing in yourself.
Author: Widen Your Tent
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

RMCohen asked whether Achashverosh had multiple wives. Well, obviously.
What was the beit hanashim sheni for? The harem for the many wives!

No girl who was test-driven by Achashverosh would ever go free. Either she
became queen or concubine. At least that is how kings back then did such
business. All the girls but the most favored ones were condemned to a
luxurious or somewhat luxurious imprisonment.

For historical background on the practice of polyginy among the Persian
nobility and the concubines' status and treatment:
https://www.worldhistory.biz/ancient-history/65457-royal-concubines.html

However, to my great surprise, I found out - if the following link is to be
trusted - that the most favored wife or wives of the king did have the
freedom to go places on their own:
https://www.worldhistory.org/article/1492/women-in-ancient-persia/

>>The king's mother and principal wife (known as the *Shahbanu*, ?King's
Lady?) traveled on their own as well as with him on military campaigns and
in overseeing administrative affairs. They had their own entourage, staff
to attend their needs, and were given places of honor at banquets alongside
distinguished male guests. The principal wife held her own court, could
sign agreements with her own seal, and had unlimited access to the king,
even being welcomed at official visits from foreign dignitaries and
participating in the meetings.

>> Some of the most famous royal women were Mandana (Mandane), mother of
Cyrus the Great (d. c. 559 BCE), Cassandane Shahbanu, wife of Cyrus the
Great (l. c. 575-519 BCE), who was mourned throughout the empire after her
death <https://www.worldhistory.org/disambiguation/Death/>, and Atusa
Shahbanu (better known as Atossa, l. c. 550-475 BCE) daughter of Cyrus the
Great and wife of Cambyses II <https://www.worldhistory.org/Cambyses_II/>
(r. 530-522 BCE) and Darius
<https://www.worldhistory.org/disambiguation/darius/> I, but there were
many others. Sisygambis, mother of Darius III (r. 336-330 BCE), behaved
more honorably than her son after his defeat by Alexander
<https://www.worldhistory.org/disambiguation/Alexander/> the Great and
Alexander's Persian wife Roxanne <https://www.worldhistory.org/Roxanne/>
(l. c. 340-310 BCE) is also recognized for her courage in the face of
adversity. The biblical figure of Queen Esther, wife of Xerxes I
<https://www.worldhistory.org/Xerxes_I/>, is another royal woman of the
Achaemenid Period even though she was not Persian by birth.<<
PS: Did you notice the name Atossa?
-- 
Mit freundlichen Gr??en,
Yours sincerely,

Arie Folger
Visit my blog at http://rabbifolger.net/
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i think the common understanding of the status of the ladies after being sent to the beit hanashim was that either they were either

 
a) called back to become 'the' queen, 
 
b) or they went home, 
 
c) or (according the gra) they stayed there forever in limbo bc once test-driven by Achashverosh they could never marry a commoner.
 
but not that they become pilagshim
 
my question was where are there sources in chazal on this question
 
its clear (as in my question) that common nonJ custom back then (and logic) w say that Achashverosh had other ladies available (both wives and pilagshim)
 
-----Original Message-----
From: "Arie Folger" <rav.a...@rabbifolger.net>
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2025 12:52pm
To: "M Cohen" <mco...@touchlogic.com>, "Avodah Torah Discussion Group" <avo...@aishdas.org>
Subject: Re: did Achashverosh have multiple wives?




RMCohen asked whether Achashverosh had multiple wives. Well, obviously. What was the beit hanashim sheni for? The harem for the many wives!
No girl who was test-driven by Achashverosh would ever go free. Either she
became queen or concubine. At least that is how kings back then did such
business. All the girls but the most favored ones were condemned to a
luxurious or somewhat luxurious imprisonment. 
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On Sun, Mar 16, 2025, 22:05 <mco...@touchlogic.com> wrote:
> i think the common understanding of the status of the ladies after being
> sent to the beit hanashim was that either they were either
> a) called back to become 'the' queen,
> b) or they went home,
> c) or (according the gra) they stayed there forever in limbo bc once
> test-driven by Achashverosh they could never marry a commoner.
> but not that they become pilagshim

I see no reason to doubt the obvious custom; they didn't go home, and they
could wait forever for being called once again at the king's whim. That is
the obvious meaning of ki im chafatz bah hamelekh venikrrah besheim.


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