Avodah Mailing List

Volume 43: Number 14

Thu, 27 Feb 2025

• 1. Yosef advise pharaoh (Joel Rich)
• 2. Re: The 7 mitzvos of Bnei Noach (Marty Bluke)
• 3. Re: skiplagged.com (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: The 7 mitzvos of Bnei Noach (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: permanent mutav sheyihiyu shogegin (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Dovid Hamelech had 400 children from yefas toars (Marty Bluke)
• 7. Re: Dovid Hamelech had 400 children from yefas toars (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 8. Re: Dovid Hamelech had 400 children from yefas toars (Marty Bluke)
• 9. Re: skiplagged.com (mco...@touchlogic.com)

Why did Yosef advise  pharaoh   to plan for the seven years of plenty and
seven years of famine in a way which would centralize the entire Egyptian
economy under the pharaoh's direct control?
bsorot tovot
joel rich
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On Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 1:10PM Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> This Chizquni would answer your question about what is the mechuyav for
> the 7MBN with an implied "Lamah li qera? Sevara hi!"

Some of the 7 mitzvos are sevaras but not all of them. For example one
tanna says that kilayim is one of the 7. Would you know that crossbreeding
is prohibited misevara? I don't think so. Even arayos the concept might be
a sevara but the details of who you are chayav for and who you aren't seem
very arbitrary.

On Wed, Feb 12, 2025 at 6:06am EST, RNC wrote:
> is there any heter to use skiplagged.com,
> or is it asur bc of gneivas daas?

I think this is an interesting question, but it didn't get any bites.
So, for those who don't know what the question is about, I'll me explain
Skiplagging, and maybe more people can participate.

Popular trips garner competition. So it's possible that a flight with a
stopover using airports A, B and C is cheaper than one from just A to B.
Despite the extra labor, fuel, etc.. (Typically, this is when C is a
bigger city or tourism destination with more people from A wanting to
go there.) Skiplagging is whn you book the trip A-B-C and simply leave
the airport at A, getting your A-B trip at a cheaper price.

Now, on to the halachic discussion.

I see you mention geneivas fa'as.

Before that, is it midevar sheqer tirchaq or "hin tzedeq" (the obligation
to stand by your word)? I never read the fine print when buying a ticket
to know if you actually promise to use it.

As for geneivas da'as itself, we are talking about the conclusion you're
leading the other party to have. Nitpicking over words may not be an "out",
althouth there are more cases where it is permissible.

As for the airline, they may be annoyed that they couldn't use your seat
on the B-C flight. But then, they typically oversell, knowing that out
of a plane-load of passengers some will have reason not to show, or not
to show on time.

We all know this from the times they overestimate the
no-shows and offer discounts or free trips to anyone who voluntarily takes
a later flight.

But worse, people get bumped. People who booked with a stopover aren't
likely to get bumped.

It might be possible that skiplagging is permissible because it is also
a means of reducing the chances of being bumped to a later flight. Protection
from a counterparty you cannot trust is indeed a matir for geneivas daas.

Of course, that motive possibly never crossed the skiplagger's mind.

And to reiterate where I opened: all of this assuming you didn't ignore
wording on the web page that explicitly ruled out skiplagging.

In any case, I hope I gave enough Choshein Mishpat fodder to wake up
this conversation.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 "As long as the candle is still burning,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   it is still possible to accomplish and to
Author: Widen Your Tent      mend."
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF        - Anonymous shoemaker to R' Yisrael Salanter

On Sun, Feb 16, 2025 at 6:11pm (Israel time), R Marty Bluke wrote:
> The chizkuni (Bereishis 7:21) asked how could hashem punish the dor hamabul
> when they weren't chayav in anything? He answered that gezel is a mitzvah
> that they should have known without any chiyuv. The obvious question on the
> chizkuni is when did they become chayav in the 7 mitzvos especially things
> like eiver min hachai which are not something you could figure out?

This Chizquni would answer your question about what is the mechuyav for
the 7MBN with an implied "Lamah li qera? Sevara hi!"

I was less surprised by the Chizquni assuming eiver min hachai is
something a person can figure out on their own than the two mitzvos bein
adam laMaqom -- issurim of AZ and "birkhas hasheim" (or is it "Hashem"?).

Shades of Rav Elchanan Wasserman saying that the existence of a Borei
would be obvious were people not plagued with negi'os providing motive
to convince ourselves otherwise.

Shortly before that post (at 5:55pm), RMB replied to me something
related. I argued that a Jewish state would an civil law beyond the
requirements explicit in black-letter halakhah. One point I raised was:
>> And if it's one of the 7 Mitzvos Benei Noach, wouldn't we be obligated too?

> You mentioned the 7 mitzvos of Bnei Noach with regards to dinim. That also
> is a very difficult area. There are no guidelines at all given in the Torah
> to what is dinim. How are the non Jews supposed to figure out what kind of
> justice system to create?

Maybe the mitzvah doesn't require a specific kind of law. Perhaps it's
just a general prohibition against anarchy. And they are yotzei as long
as they put something in place to have an ordered society. Something
sufficient to address R Chananiah Segan haKohanim's concern, "pray for
the welfare of the government, for without yir'ah of it, people would
swallow eachother alive." (Avos 3:2)

And that would be intuitive, not requiring a tzivui.

However, the Rambam (Hil Melakhim 9:14) says that the courts have
a specific role, "ladun nesheish mitzvos eilu". Such that the courts
aren't about enacting and enforcing civil law.

That said, I assumed the position of the Rama (teshuvah #20), Rashi,
Meiri, the Lekhem Mishnah, I think it's also the conclusion of the
Ramban's discussion of Shim'on and Levi in Shechem, the Chasam Sofer
(tehuvah 6:14),... In short, enough sources that I just took it for
granted "we" don't hold like the Rambam.

> The Mishne Lamekech (melachim 10:8 at the very end) quotes a question from
> the yefe toar. How could Rav Yitzchak say that the Torah should have
> started from hachodesh hazeh, if so we wouldn't know what the 7 mitzvos
> are? He answers that Torah is just for the Jewish people and not for the
> non Jews. But it begs the question, so how do the non Jews know what the 7
> mitzvos are?

Jews : Torah   ::  Nakhriim : Jews (qua Mamlekhes Kohaim)

(If you don't recall from SATs, O levels, Bogrut, that reads:
the relationship between the Jews and the Torah is the same as the
relationship between Narkhriim and us. Hashem gives us the Torah telling
us that it's thereby our job to be kohanim spreading these truths.

Maybe the YT and ML are saying that the Torah is only *directly* for us,
because everyone else has us as teachers?

Also not that this highlights an important point about how they (and many
contemporary sermons) understand R Yitzchaq. The Torah doesn't start with
Bereishis to convince Nakhriim that we have a right to EY. He is saying
that when they shake our own confidence, we have something to point to --
thereby reassuring ourselves! (After all, it's all there for us!)

--- ad kan my reply ---


To continue with an even further tangent:

Despite what you may have been told when you first learned this Rashi,
the R Yitzchaq isn't Rashi's father. Not that your post assumed it was.
I said this bit wasn't in reply...

First, because the Yalqut Shim'oni (#187) also quotes R Yitzchaq, meaning
R Shimon (or whomever redacted the liqut) had reason to believe it was
a medrash. Far older.

Second, because it's unclear whether "Yitzchaqi" is actually synonymous
with "ben Yitzchaq". It would raise the question of why Rashi's patronymic
is unique. And in Sefer Bamidvar, the "-i" suffix was for a Beis Av. So
that R Shelomo Yitzchaqi would be more like "R Shelomo Isaacson" --
there was a Yitzchaq somewhere in the ancestry. (Although you need my
"first" to rule out Rashi quoting that ancestor.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 There's only one corner of the universe
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   you can be certain of improving,
Author: Widen Your Tent      and that's your own self.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF             - Aldous Huxley

On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 05:53:39AM +0200, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote:
> How should we feel about seemingly permanent mutav sheyihiyu shogegin (e.g.
> allowing rhythmic table drumming on shabbat according to some authorities.)

Is that mutav sheyihyu shogegin? The Rama OC 339:3 then follows with a
veyeish omerim (citing Tosafos) that it's mutar because there is a limit
to how far we would take shema yetaqein keli in an era where musicians
don't generally repair their own instruments mid-performance.

(A metzi'us I would question, having seen violins and guitars being tuned
or even restrung between songs. But going with Tosafos for the bit...)

Is the Rama saying the stam shitah that no one is objective because
MSS, and then Tosafos's shitah that it's allowed? In which case, you
would be correct even for Ashkenazim.

But I thoughtt the Rama is adding Tosafos's shitah to the reason he holds
one shouldn't tell them to stop -- they won't anyway and we aren't even
sure it's assur.

There is also a third way to read it. Often the Rama agrees with the
Mechaber but adds "veyeish omerim" or "veyeish matirim" or the like as
his way of saying that lemaaseh Ashkenazim don't follow the Mechaber.
And in those cases, it's not stam vs yeish omerim, but Sephard vs
Ashkenaz.

Or, you could well be right. I just want to keep the question open,
rather than accept your given.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Worrying is like a rocking chair:
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   it gives you something to do for a while,
Author: Widen Your Tent      but in the end it gets you nowhere.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

On Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 1:13PM Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 04, 2025 at 07:53:25AM +0200, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
>>                                   . So how do we understand that Dovid had
>> 400 children from yefas toars! Did he have such a great yetzer hara that
>> he couldn't control?

> Ask Uriah haChitti...?

I wish I could. But given his absence does anyone have an answer?

They weren't his. They were children of yefos to'ar, but he did not sire 
all of them. Perhaps some of them.

YGB

On 2/27/2025 6:18 AM, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 1:13PM Micha Berger<mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
>> On Tue, Feb 04, 2025 at 07:53:25AM +0200, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
>>>                                    . So how do we understand that Dovid had
>>> 400 children from yefas toars! Did he have such a great yetzer hara that
>>> he couldn't control?
>> Ask Uriah haChitti...?
> I wish I could. But given his absence does anyone have an answer?
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing list
> Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
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>

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That?s not what the Gemara says. It says explicitly that they were Dovid?s
children. I wish I could paste Hebrew for the exact text. I looked at the
major mefarshim on the daf I didn?t see any that said they weren?t Dovids
children.

On Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 5:34?PM Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer <r...@aishdas.org>
wrote:

> They weren't his. They were children of yefos to'ar, but he did not sire
> all of them. Perhaps some of them.
>
> YGB
> On 2/27/2025 6:18 AM, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
>
> On Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 1:13PM Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Feb 04, 2025 at 07:53:25AM +0200, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
>
>                                   . So how do we understand that Dovid had
> 400 children from yefas toars! Did he have such a great yetzer hara that
> he couldn't control?
>
> Ask Uriah haChitti...?
>
> I wish I could. But given his absence does anyone have an answer?
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing listAvodah@lists.aishdas.orghttp://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
>
>
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thank you
 
you suggest:
1. the airline is only minorly annoyed/dont really care and therefore ok
i think the reality is that they are v unhappy about it. they have sued skiplagged.com multiple times.
they w definitely refuse to sell you the ticket if they knew you were going to skip
 
2. reducing the chances of being bumped
hard to hear. 
dk if true. 
certainly not your kavana (as you mentioned). 
even skiplagged doesnt mention this 'maaleh' to using their service
 
i had 4 sevorahs to forbid:
1. gneivas daas
2. sheker
3. chillul hashem
4. maybe gneiva mamash (bc articles online say that airline T&Cs
explicitly forbid buying their tickets with this intention and therefore
maybe you are trespassing on their airplane)
 
someone proposed to me no gneivas daas bc the corporation has no daas
'whose mind are you fooling'
 
another TC proposed to me no gneivas daas bc they know so many pple are doing it anyways that its not gneivas daas, just an unhappy goy.
 
i'm not happy with either of these sevoras
 
is it not gneivas daas to lie about your childs age to get cheaper admission tickets etc
 
with skiplagged you are lying about your destination to get cheaper tickets
 
both cases the company knows that some pple do it, but they are not happy about it and wouldnt sell it to you if they knew the truth
 
 
btw, someone asked me if this is asur, what about the (common?) practice of buying things (airplane tickets, hotel) by buying someone elses points?

 
..v'yeish l'chaliak
 
mc
 
-----Original Message-----
From: "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2025 1:46am
To: "The Avodah Torah Discussion Group" <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
Cc: mco...@touchlogic.com
Subject: Re: [Avodah] skiplagged.com



On Wed, Feb 12, 2025 at 6:06am EST, RNC wrote:
> is there any heter to use skiplagged.com,
> or is it asur bc of gneivas daas?

I think this is an interesting question, but it didn't get any bites.
So, for those who don't know what the question is about, I'll me explain
Skiplagging, and maybe more people can participate.

Popular trips garner competition. So it's possible that a flight with a
stopover using airports A, B and C is cheaper than one from just A to B.
Despite the extra labor, fuel, etc.. (Typically, this is when C is a
bigger city or tourism destination with more people from A wanting to
go there.) Skiplagging is whn you book the trip A-B-C and simply leave
the airport at A, getting your A-B trip at a cheaper price.

Now, on to the halachic discussion.

I see you mention geneivas fa'as.

Before that, is it midevar sheqer tirchaq or "hin tzedeq" (the obligation
to stand by your word)? I never read the fine print when buying a ticket
to know if you actually promise to use it.

As for geneivas da'as itself, we are talking about the conclusion you're
leading the other party to have. Nitpicking over words may not be an "out",
althouth there are more cases where it is permissible.

As for the airline, they may be annoyed that they couldn't use your seat
on the B-C flight. But then, they typically oversell, knowing that out
of a plane-load of passengers some will have reason not to show, or not
to show on time.

We all know this from the times they overestimate the
no-shows and offer discounts or free trips to anyone who voluntarily takes
a later flight.

But worse, people get bumped. People who booked with a stopover aren't
likely to get bumped.

It might be possible that skiplagging is permissible because it is also
a means of reducing the chances of being bumped to a later flight. Protection
from a counterparty you cannot trust is indeed a matir for geneivas daas.

Of course, that motive possibly never crossed the skiplagger's mind.

And to reiterate where I opened: all of this assuming you didn't ignore
wording on the web page that explicitly ruled out skiplagging.

In any case, I hope I gave enough Choshein Mishpat fodder to wake up
this conversation.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger "As long as the candle is still burning,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp it is still possible to accomplish and to
Author: Widen Your Tent mend."
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF - Anonymous shoemaker to R' Yisrael Salanter
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