Avodah Mailing List

Volume 42: Number 70

Tue, 15 Oct 2024

• 1. Re: Mincha (allan.en...@gmail.com)
• 2. Re: Wine (Ben Bradley)
• 3. How to commemorate something (Akiva Miller)
• 4. Re: Wine (Arie Folger)

Serendipitously, I found an answer to this question in my Yom Kippur
machzor yesterday, quoted in the name of R' Chaim, the brother of the
Maharal MiPrag, in his sefer Iggeres HaTiyyul.

The scan of the page can be found here (lower paragraph):
https://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/machzor-why-minchah.jpg

G'mar tov to all,
ADE

On Fri, 11 Oct 2024 at 14:35, Joel Rich via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
wrote:

> How do you think the various prayers got their names? This doesn't
> fully satisfy me.
>
> *?????? ???"? ???? ????? ?? ? ???? ?*
>
>  ?? ???? ??? ????? ?????. ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????
> ?? ????, ?"? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?????.
>
> [Tosafos haRo"sh, Berakhos 6b:
> ... You would ask, why is it's name called "Minchah"? If it is about the
> Minchah which is in the evening, there is also a Minchah in the morning?
> Yeish lomar: Because Arvis and Shacharis each have another na,e, so they
> called this one "Tefillas haMinchah".
> -mb]
>
> GCT
> Joel Rich
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing list
> Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20241013/3a5dc205/attachment-0001.htm>

Some of you may know that one of my pet peeves was that I was taught that
the reason that wine was watered down in talmudic times was because wine
was much stronger back in the day

In my Latin lessons at school we learned exactly the same about Roman
wines, that it had to be diluted to be potable. It was just a given in the
texts we were learning.
That was not in any Jewish context at all.
I have no insight into the science of winemaking past and present. But the historical sources seem consistent.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20241013/11928a19/attachment-0001.htm>

.
I would like to posit two areas of halacha where, logically, we ought to
commemorate a certain thing in a certain way, but we actually commemorate
it in a very different - perhaps even diametrically opposite - way.

The first is Lechem Mishne. By rights, someone who eats bread on *Erev*
Shabbos ought to take two full loaves, in commemoration of the double
portion of mann that fell on *Erev* Shabbos in the midbar.

But that's not how Chazal set it up. They told us to take the double loaves
on Shabbos itself. I'm at a loss to describe their reasoning; perhaps there
is a greater Pirsumei Nisa on Shabbos, or maybe it was just for
convenience, in the sense that we are required to eat bread on Shabbos and
it would be an imposition to make such a requirement for Friday. Or maybe
someone can come up with another explanation. (To me, the strangeness is
compounded by the requirement for Lechem Misheh even at the Shabbos Lunch
meal, whereas in the Midbar, only one loaf of the double mann would be left
at that point.)

My other example concerns the ner we use for Havdala. On Mozaei Yom Kippur
we use a ner because (in contrast to other yom tovim, when use of a ner is
basically okay) we are now allowed to use neros again. Logically, it seems
to me, that on Motzaei Yom Kippur one should be allowed to use any sort of
ner, and the requirement for a "ner sheshavas" puzzles me. In contrast, we
use a ner on Motzaei Shabbos for *two* reasons: not only are we allowed to
use neros again, and in addition, it is a commemoration of the creation of
light on the first day of Bereishis. Logically, it seems to me, that on
Motzaei Shabbos, we should be required to ignite a brand new ner to remind
us of the Creation of the original light.

But that's not how Chazal set it up. Instead of requiring a brand new ner
on Motzaei Shabbos, the distinction lies in being *forbidden* (is that too
strong a word?) to use a brand new ner on Motzaei Yom Kippur.  On Motzaei
Yom Kippur we are required to use a ner that has been burning since Erev
Yom Kippur (even though Motzaei Yom Kippur has nothing to do with
Creation), and on Motzei Shabbos we can use any kind of ner that we want
(even though Motzaei Shabbos has *everything* to do with Creation).

I hope someone can offer a better explanation for this, but I can't come up
with anything other than convenience: Instead of requiring a new ner every
single Motzaei Shabbos, Chazal made their point by requiring an old ner
once a year, on Motzaei Yom Kippur.

I vaguely recall that once upon a time, I had other examples of this
phenomenon, but these two are the only ones I remember. If anyone else can
think of other examples, or can offer any explanations, please do so.

Akiva Miller
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20241013/6f2aecbd/attachment-0001.htm>

RJR asked about the wine in Chazal's times, which was said to be too strong
and require dilution, and yet we meanwhile know that wine did not have a
higher alcohol content back then.

Bim'hila, but I think that a common fallacy is behind the question: That
dilution was needed because alcohol content was too high. Though Rishonim
do discuss Chazal's wine being stronger, they do not speak of alcohol
content and there is no reason for us to assume that that is what was so
strong.

Instead I want to suggest that the taste was strong, not the alcohol
content. Here is an interesting blurb from an article at the Smithsonian:

https://spoonuniversity.com/school/ufl/i-ate-like-an-ancient-roman-for-the-week-and-was-always-tipsy/

> The Romans had tricks up their sleeves to make wine more palatable
> (besides adding water). Paul Lukacs, author of *Inventing Wine: A New
> History of One of the World's Most Ancient Pleasures, said in an NPR
> interview
> <https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=166186416>
> that Roman wine was rancid for most of the year.

> "...Wine would sour rapidly, and of course it could only be made once a
> year, at the harvest...So it might have tasted, to our palates, decent in
> September, but it sure would have tasted bad come spring."

> To combat this, the Romans would add lead, honey, ash, myrrh, incense,
> fresh resin and pitch from pine trees, and a slew of other spices. No
> wonder the life expectancy of Romans was so short -- they were drinking lead
> as babies. A particularly coveted drink was Mulsum, a type of wine mixed
> with honey.

> The ancient writer Apicius, author of Cookery and Dining in Ancient Rome
> <https://kitchenproject.com/history/apicius/Apicius.pdf>, has recipes for
> this honey wine, although his version also includes crushed pepper,
> saffron, roasted date stones, and charcoal.

So it had a strong flavour, but a lower alcohol content. This would also
fit well with RMB's comment that the wine may have easily turned syrupy as
the year progressed and the wine aged.


[A second email, explaining that second link. -mb]


One correction: Though I found a relevant article at the Smithsonian in
preparing for my post, what I actually linked to was from a different
website. The link is above.


Gmar chatima tova,
-- 
Mit freundlichen Gren,
Yours sincerely,

Arie Folger
Visit my blog at http://rabbifolger.net/


------------------------------



_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


------------------------------


**************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah/avodahareivim-membership-agreement/


You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org


When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."

A list of common acronyms is available at
        http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah/avodah-acronyms
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)