Avodah Mailing List

Volume 42: Number 69

Fri, 11 Oct 2024

• 1. Wine (Joel Rich)
• 2. Re: Wine (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Intent? (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Toras Chayim veAhavas Chessed (Micha Berger)
• 5. T'ruas Amo Yisrael (Michael Poppers)
• 6. Mincha (Joel Rich)
• 7. Re: Mincha (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Mincha (Micha Berger)

Some of you may know that one of my pet peeves was that I was taught that
the reason that wine was watered down in talmudic times was because wine
was much stronger back in the day. However, I have since found out that
wine will not naturally ferment to more than 18% alcohol content. So why
should it have been more of an issue then more than now. I recently heard a
presentation by Shulie Mishkin where she gave a number of possible reasons
The first were simply cultural ? cultured people drank watered down wine
(me-with their pinky at the proper angle?). Another possibility was that it
was being drunk as a beverage, and therefore you didn?t want to have too
high an alcohol content if you were going to be drinking a lot. It was also
conjectured that they wanted to treat either their water or wine to make
them more palatable. Also, in certain places wine was sold as concentrate.
Lastly, a kaballistic reason is that water and wine represent din and
rachamim.

Note that for some of the reasons it seems we might have been affected by
surrounding cultures (I wonder who invented hseiba?) Any thoughts
appreciated


GCT
Joel Rich
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On Tue, Oct 08, 2024 at 07:46:12PM -0400, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote:
> Some of you may know that one of my pet peeves was that I was taught that
> the reason that wine was watered down in talmudic times was because wine
> was much stronger back in the day. However, I have since found out that
> wine will not naturally ferment to more than 18% alcohol content...

Before controlled environments and specially bred yeast, more like
12-14%, which is why that's the norm for both wine and beer.

RSM z"l made that point on-list.

It seems they couldn't make wine storage vessels that would prevent
water from evaporating away. So, they ended up with something syrupy,
which then needed to be reconstituted into a normal liquid.

RSM noted that alcohol evaporates more readily than water. This is the
whole reason distilling works -- you head the liquid up to somewhere
between 173 and 212 deg F, so that the alcohol avaporates away leaving
the water behind. And then you cool the alcohol vaper and catch the
liquid into a second vessel.

So, their alcohol level was significantly lower than 12% when first poured
from the amphora. And then they diluted the result at around 1:4! So,
we're talking something below 3% to 4% alcohol.

> high an alcohol content if you were going to be drinking a lot. It was also
> conjectured that they wanted to treat either their water or wine to make
> them more palatable...

Well, we know from Mishlei Proverbs 9:2,5 and Yeshaiah 65:11 that spicing
wine was common enough during bayis rishon (a far cry from Chazal's day)
for it to have its own name "maschah" (with a samech).

> Note that for some of the reasons it seems we might have been affected by
> surrounding cultures (I wonder who invented hseiba?) Any thoughts
> appreciated

Heseibah is outright described as imitating the nobility of their day.

For that matter, that aristocracy often held symposia - long banquets
in which they would recline, with philosophy discussions between
courses. There would even be a final philosophy presentation after the
meal, or epi-koman (epi is "outside" or "beyond").

The whole seder format follows a Greek pattern!

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                     Life is complex.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp           Decisions are complex.
Author: Widen Your Tent                  The Torah is complex.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                              - R' Binyamin Hecht

On Mon, Sep 30, 2024 at 05:51:09PM -0400, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote:
> Listening to a class on charity, the point was made that the donors' reason
> for wanting their name on something may be positive...

Kin'as soferim tarbeh chokhmah. Kin'as baalei tzedaqah...

If you want donations to become a given, you may need to name names.

In the case of Ruth Gottesman's donation to Einstein College of Medicine
(a foundation that reduced tuition to zero), she didn't want to be named.
The school insisted, because she is a former professor there, and the
dedication of the faculty was a story they wanted told.

So yes, this comes up.

>        In addition, how many of us can really be so self-aware as to know
> what our real underlying drivers are and what are the stories we tell
> ourselves. Thoughts?

We are obligated to work on our self-awareness. Whether we look at
Hilkhos Dei'os, Mesilas Yesharim on Zehirus and keeping a Cheshbon
haNefesh, or Tenu'as haMussar.

But having a friend, or a formal chavrusah in Middos, can help one stay
honest with oneself. It doesn't have to be entirely *self*-awarness,
if you can trust someone to work on these things together.

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 The waste of time is the most extravagant
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   of all expense.
Author: Widen Your Tent                              -Theophrastus
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

On Sun, Sep 22, 2024 at 10:51am EDT, I asked:
> I want to ask a subtle question about the meaning of one part of Sim Shalom.
> 
> Are we saying that Hashem gave us (1) Toras Chayim, (2) veAhavas Chessed,
> (3) uTzedaqah, (4) uVerakhah, (5) veRachamim, (6) veChayim, (7) veShalom
> 
> or that Hashem gave us a Torah of (1) Chayim, (2) veAhavas Chessed,
> (3) uTzedaqah...

Upon further thought...

The second one doesn't work, because the 6th item on the list is
"veChayim". As a list of adjectives for Torah, it would be a repeat of #1
"A Torah of life, and of love of kindness... and of life and of peace"?
But if these are nouns, then item 1 is "Toras Chayim" whereas item 6 is
"Chayim" itself.

GCT!
-Micha

In Avodah V42n68, RAMiller wondered why the *chasimah* for "Shofaros"
mentioned *t'ruah* but not Shofar.  Back in 2016, in a private message
related to a M-J V63n3 reply of mine
<http://www.ottmall.com/mj_ht_arch/v63/mj_v63i03.html#CT>, I noted a
Roedelheim-print footnote to the "Areshes..." for "Shofaros" which might be
of interest to RAMiller and/or the list -- you can see it here
<https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=43504&;st=&pgnum=231>.  Bottom
line, in my M-J post I dealt with "t'ruaseinu" in "Malchiyos", and the
footnote explains "t'ruaseinu" in both "Malchiyos" and "Shofaros".

Best wishes to all for *shnas b'rachah v'hatzlachah*!
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How do you think the various prayers got their names? This doesn't
fully satisfy me.

*?????? ???"? ???? ????? ?? ? ???? ?*

 ?? ???? ??? ????? ?????. ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????
?? ????, ?"? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?????.

[Tosafos haRo"sh, Berakhos 6b:
... You would ask, why is it's name called "Minchah"? If it is about the
Minchah which is in the evening, there is also a Minchah in the morning?
Yeish lomar: Because Arvis and Shacharis each have another na,e, so they
called this one "Tefillas haMinchah".
-mb]

GCT
Joel Rich

On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 08:38:39AM -0400, Joel Rich wrote:
> How do you think the various prayers got their names? This doesn't
> fully satisfy me.

I think it's just a time marker. The afternoon Minchah was a daily
mandatory qorban immediately before the Tamid shel Bein haArbayim. (Just
as the morning Minchah was immediately after that Tamid.)

The only other qorban tzibbur or other avodah in Abayei's seder that
was done between chatzos and the final Tamid are the Mussafin and the
Vazichin. And we know Mussaf wasn't daily, and Vazichin -- setting two
bowls of levonah next to the lechem hapanim -- was only on Fridays.

GCT and :-)@@ii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 What you get by achieving your goals
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   is not as important as
Author: Widen Your Tent      what you become by achieving your goals.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF            - Henry David Thoreau

This morning, at 9:59am EDT, I wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 08:38:39AM -0400, Joel Rich wrote:
> > How do you think the various prayers got their names? This doesn't
> > fully satisfy me.
> 
> I think it's just a time marker. The afternoon Minchah was a daily
> mandatory qorban immediately before the Tamid shel Bein haArbayim. (Just
> as the morning Minchah was immediately after that Tamid.)
...

As more indication that the tefillah names are time markers...

Maariv is a reshus (to the extent that it is) because it commemorates
the Eivarim. Since those were offered only if there were leftovers, the
tefillah continuation of them is also not fully mandatory. (In practice,
there would alway be Eivarim. There had to be nearly every day there
was avodah more qorbanos than time and space on the Mizbeiach.)

And yet we call it Arvis / Maariv after the Tamid. Which fits the same
theory -- we are calling it "the prayer [at the time of the] Evening
[Tamid]". Just as I am suggesting that we call the earlier prayer "the
prayer [at the time of the] Pancake Offering".

GCT and :-)@@ii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 How wonderful it is that
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   nobody need wait a single moment
Author: Widen Your Tent      before starting to improve the world.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF            - Anne Frank Hy"d


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