Avodah Mailing List

Volume 42: Number 62

Thu, 12 Sep 2024

• 1. Context? (Joel Rich)
• 2. Rambam (Joel Rich)
• 3. Re: Rambam (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Context? (Micha Berger)
• 5. Safeik Plus Mi'ut (Micha Berger)
• 6. HaMotzi meiChaveiro Alav haRaayah (Micha Berger)

After sending out a bio of R Sternbuch to some folks I learn with, I stated
: The reason I thought this important is it?s my feeling that one component
of understanding responsa is knowing the context of the community that it
was given in. South Africa was not, as I understand it, necessarily what we
would consider the same type of community as the eida charedit in
Jerusalem. Thus knowing where Rabbi Sternbuch gave these responses is
important. Thoughts?
Bsorot Tovot
Joel Rich
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From a Tradition Magazine book review: ?As the old saw has it, there is
Maimonides, Yourmonides, Hermonides, etc. In the world of academic
scholarship, there may be as many versions of Maimonides as there are
scholars of Maimonides. Jolene Kellner has noted more than once that
Maimonides serves as a Rorschach test: everyone looking at the inkblots on
the pages of his works sees a different picture. R. Kafih conveyed a
similar idea in a letter to Prof. Michael Schwarz, who translated the Guide
into modern Hebrew: ?In my view, Maimonides resembles a mirror. Whoever
stands before it sees his own image, and so with Maimonides-he has many
faces, and each one infuses his own flavor.? Nevertheless, even in an
amusement park fun house mirror, some connection is still discernible
between the person facing the mirror and the visage reflected in it. From
the perspective of most academics, the image of Maimonides found in Kisvei
HaRambam is a pale reflection of the man himself.?

This seems to be a version of something I had said many years ago, not just
about Rambam ? everyone looks into tora and sees their reflection. I?ve
come to think it?s a more nuanced and symbiotic relationship, which would
explain why two gdolim can know all the corpus yet come to different
conclusions. How it actually works in practice, and how self-aware the
participants are, has always been a subject of fascination to me. Thoughts?

Bsorot Tovot

Joel Rich
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On Tue, Sep 10, 2024 at 08:15:48PM -0400, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote:
> From a Tradition Magazine book review:
> > As the old saw has it, there is Maimonides, Yourmonides, Hermonides,
> > etc. In the world of academic scholarship, there may be as many
> > versions of Maimonides as there are scholars of Maimonides...

> This seems to be a version of something I had said many years ago, not just
> about Rambam -- everyone looks into tora and sees their reflection. I've
> come to think it's a more nuanced and symbiotic relationship, which would
> explain why two gdolim can know all the corpus yet come to different
> conclusions...

I think there is a second thing going on with the Rambam, beyond the usual
"eilu va'eilu".

The Maharal explains Eilu vaEilu as the effect of the Divine Truth not
fitting within the universe. I would liken it to the story of the Five
Blind Men and the Elephant, where each only feels on one part of the
elephant and reach very different descriptions of what an elephant is
like. Except here, there is no way for a human mind to grasp the full
"elephant", or even for the universe to contain it. Simplified models
is the best we can do. Even if they contradict.

So perhaps a better metaphor is a shadow. Beis Hillel encounter a cube,
and they shine a light on it from the side. They pasqen that in practice,
cubes are square. Beis Shammai are coming from a different angle,
and so their light shines from beyond a corner, leaving a hexagonal
shadow. And so they pasqen hexagon. Both are capturing descriptions
of reality. Which is the right pesaq depends on where the community is
currently in relation to Hashem's Truth and goal for us.

Which is similar to the "symbiotic relationship" RJR describes.

(The "shadow" metaphor also give a language for discussing non-O
movements. Movements that don't even claim to be "halachiuc" have no
object to take the shadow of. And C kind of moves the light around to
draw the desired resulting picture.)

But as I opened, I think something else is going on with My-monides
beyond this.

I think the willingness for people to going further than I would with the
Rmabam's 7th cause of ambiguity in his introduction to the Moreh makes
the Rambam far more prone to this kind of thing than the rest of Torah.

The Rambam writes:
    Cause 7: It is sometimes necessary to introduce such metaphysical
    matter as may partly be disclosed, but must partly be concealed.*
    While, therefore, on one occasion the object which the author has in
    view may demand that the metaphysical problem be treated as solved
    in one way, it may be convenient on another occasion to treat it as
    solved in the opposite way. The author must endeavor, by concealing
    this fact as much as possible, to prevent the uneducated reader from
    perceiving the contradiction.

And this allows people (and not just Strauss and since, rishonim too!) to
say this bit or that wasn't what the Rambam really believed; it was just
to keep the uninitiated in line.

Although the Maharal and R Kook also seem to be prone to getting very
subjective interpretation (and reinterpretation) as well.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 A cheerful disposition is an inestimable treasure.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   It preserves health, promotes convalescence,
Author: Widen Your Tent      and helps us cope with adversity.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF       - R' SR Hirsch, "From the Wisdom of Mishlei"

On Tue, Sep 10, 2024 at 08:14:19PM -0400, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote:
> After sending out a bio of R Sternbuch to some folks I learn with, I stated
> The reason I thought this important is it's my feeling that one component
> of understanding responsa is knowing the context of the community that it
> was given in. South Africa was not, as I understand it, necessarily what we
> would consider the same type of community as the eida charedit in
> Jerusalem. Thus knowing where Rabbi Sternbuch gave these responses is
> important....

But different than the beginning of the paragraph. You started with

> The reason I thought this important is it's my feeling that one component
> of understanding responsa is knowing the context of the community that it
> was given in.....

But then you shift to knowing not where the recipient(s) of the pesaq
stand but knowing the stance of the poseiq:
>            Thus knowing where Rabbi Sternbuch gave these responses is
> important....

Depictions of RMF's gedulah often include the fact that he can pasqen
for people in different places hashkafically than he was, using their
givens.

But now when I look now, Google couldn't help me find specific examples.
(I seem to recall him ruling for a group from Bnei Akiva what is
appropriate for them to do on Yom HaAtzma'ut despite it being the Omer,
given what *they* believe the say commemorates.)

Whether this is true or not, it does raise the possibilty that knowing
the sho'el and knowing where the poseiq he relies on is coming from could
be significantly different things.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   life which is required to be exchanged for it,
Author: Widen Your Tent      immediately or in the long run.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                 - Henry David Thoreau

I was under the impression that we so ignore a mi'ut that there is no
sefeiq sefeiqa unless each safeiq is roughly balanced.

This is easy to explain if we take the Ra'a's sevara for sefeiq
sefeiqa. Leshitaso, safeiq deOraisa lechumera is itself a din
derabbanan. So, the second safeiq would be a case of safeiq derabbanan
lequla.

And in our case, the rov lehachmir means there is no safeiq derabbanan.

But if you say that sefeiq sefeiqa is a kind of a statistical rov,
you would think that a roughly 50:50 safeiq plus that mi'ut would still
mean that there is a rov giving ground lehatir.

But as I opened, I thought that in general this doesn't work.

Which you would have to explain the rov not statistically, but as the
majority of plausible outcomes. And the mi'ut isn't a pluasible outcome.

All of which is why I was surprised by something in the AhS YD 315:9:
The case is of a cow where the first birth was premature, we can find a
placent and a large blood mass, but cannot identify the fetus.

The whole thing is not qadosh. E.g. it can be turned into animal feed.

The AhS cites gemara at the end of Chullin pereq 4 combining the mi'ut of
births where the resulting animal doesn't have the form of the mother's
species to the safeiq of whether the calf was male or female. Therefore,
only a mi'ut of births produce a qadosh animal. And so in this case, we
need not worry about there being a bekhor somewhere (perhaps dissolved)
in what the cow expelled.

But as my intro said, I thought we ignore a mi'ut when there is a
different safeiq!

Can someone explain how I am misunderstanding the AhS or the case?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Mussar is like oil put in water,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   eventually it will rise to the top.
Author: Widen Your Tent                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

AhSY is learning Hil' Bekhoros, and a recurring issue is who owns
a safeiq bekhor. See in particular YD 315:2, but the same idea is
repeated in the contexts of specific sources of safeiq.

It made me think about homotzi meichaveiro alav haraayah, and if
there is a machloqes about why.

First, background:

If the animal is still in the Yisrael's posession, a Kohein cannot prove
his claim to it, so the animal stays with the Kohein. But if a Kohein
was already mistkaenly given the animal, or claimed it without asking,
it relates to a machloqes one finds throughout CM.

The Rosh says ther kohein has to return the animal.

The Rambam says he does not. Although the AhS notes that this general
machloqes may not apply here, and even the Rambam may require the kohein
to return the animal because even if the animal is a bekhor, it isn't
necessarily *this* kohein. And that the Rambam is only talking about a
situation where there is only one kohein he clearly would have given it
to (in a vadai case). Also, this relies on the Rambam also holding that
tovas hana'ah (the owner's power to choose the recipient kohein) is not
of actual financial value. More like a right than a form of property.

So, here's what I am wondering:

HMMAHR could work in at least two ways:

1- The person holding the item has a chazaqah, and like any other
chazaqah demei'iqara we assume things haven't changed until proven
otherwise.

This would make HMMAHR an active ruling of BD. And thus like any other
chazaqah, it would depend on the state when the question arose.

Which would justify the Rosh's poisiton that BD should return the item
to the original owner. In our case, give the safeiq bekhor back to the
Yisrael.

2- If the question is unresolvable, BD has no motive for the item to
change hands. HMMAHR is telling BD to remain passive, because it lacks
information to justify acting.

And that could be the Rambam's position, that BD leaves things where they
are no matter how often the item (safeiq bekhor) changes hands.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 I always give much away,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   and so gather happiness instead of pleasure.
Author: Widen Your Tent              -  Rachel Levin Varnhagen
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF


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