Avodah Mailing List

Volume 42: Number 36

Fri, 24 May 2024

• 1. Re: Rabbi Akiva's Students' Deaths as Soldiers in Bar Kochba's Army? A thorough critique of the theory (Zvi Lampel)
• 2. Re: Interest and modern economies (Akiva Miller)
• 3. Re: Tochacha (Micha Berger)
• 4. Interest and modern economies (mco...@touchlogic.com)
• 5. text/practice (Joel Rich)

>
> RMB: What I said about "iskara" [the idea that the Y-mi's "iskarah" wasn't
> a lung disease (askara) but the

type of low-ranking Roman soldier who carried a dagger (sicarii)] is found
> in most divrei Torah
> that refer to the idea at al. (Hit Google
> <https://www.google.com/search?&;q=%22sicarii%22+rabbi+akiva%27s+students>
> ...I think this element started with R Shlomo Riskin; but many others run
> with it.)
>
> I think RSY's oversight of a key part of the argument as frequently
> presented is a major limitation of the article you shared....[as it
> is] the most compelling one.
>
>  In defense of RSY I would have pointed out that his information came from
sefarim and hard copy articles, and not from blogs, or indeed any
non-Hebrew language sources.

But even by googling (in English and Hebrew) Askara or Askarah+Akiva, it
seems that R. Riskin's idea, of relating the word askara to sicarii, is far
from being "frequently presented." I haven't even found it to be noted at
all by any others. (Another example:
https://lib.cet.ac.il/pages/item.asp?item=16918)

Neither did I find such in a random look at some of the160 sources that
come up in your link

https://www.google.com/search?&;q=%22sicarii%22+rabbi+akiva%27s+students.

Perhaps you can specify, say, three of them that agree to, or even mention,
the theory that Rav Nachman's "iskarah" was the type of low-ranking Roman
soldier who carried a dagger (sicarii)], to support your critique that
"RSY's oversight of a key part of the argument as frequently
presented is a major limitation of the article ....[as it is] the most
compelling one"?

I of course do come up with several promoters of the idea that Rabbi
Akiva's students died either in battle in the Bar Kochba rebellion or in
punishment for their participation in or advocacy thereof. (In
https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/26881/is-there-any-evidence-that-rabbi-akivas-students-fought-alongside-bar-kochba
one discussant connects askera to asphyxiation, and takes it as a reference
not to a sickness, the ubiquitous meaning, but to the result of
crucifixion.)  But I have only been addressing your contention that  Rav
Nachman's "iskarah" was a type of low-ranking Roman soldier (and therefore
a reference to the alleged death in battle of Rabbi Akiva's students in Bar
Kochba's army.)

One mistake I did find in RSY's presentation is the claim (p. 10, note 18,
in the name of R. Yisrael Eliyahu [HaOtzar, gilyon 78]) that Rav Nachman
himself, the author of the statement (in Yevamos 62b) that the students
died from askarah, states (in Sota 35a) that when the Torah says the
meraglim died in a mageyfa, it means they died b'askara! So the very person
who attributed Rabbi Akiva's students' deaths to "askara,'' defined the
word to mean a plague.

Trouble is, the first statement was made by Rav Nachman stam (bar Yaakov),
and the second by Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak.

Zvi Lampel
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20240521/549e7a25/attachment-0001.htm>

.
R' Marty Bluke asked:

> With the Torah prohibiting interest does that mean a Torah
> society cannot have a modern economy? I understand that there
> are workarounds but those raise a larger question. If taking
> interest makes you a kofer then surely circumventing the
> prohibition through technical means is not what the Torah
> wants. So how can we have a modern economy Al pi Torah given
> the prohibition on interest?

Is a "modern economy" the ideal? Do we really *want* that?

More precisely, is a modern economy the ideal for *Jews*? (If I'm not
mistaken, the prohibitions on interest are among a small minority of Bein
Adam L'Chaveiros which are directed specifically at us, and are *not* for
the world at large.)

Imagine a nation where those who needed a loan could easily get one, and it
would be interest-free.

For more examples of how the Torah sees the Jewish nation's economy, see
this week's parsha, where we learn details about the concepts of ownership
and buying/selling. The general world perceives buying and selling in
absolute terms, but we Jews have certain limitations - shemitta, geulah,
not to mention many matanos from the produce that we "own".

Akiva Miller
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20240521/518502d0/attachment-0001.htm>

On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 11:35:50AM +1000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
> That Halacha is limited to giving PUBLIC Tochacha
> This is clear in the Rama [608:2]
> And MBerrurah [608:8] -- 
> where he clearly declares
> one is obligated to offer Tochacha in private until the sinner [repents]
> hits or curses

Note that the case in the Rama that MB s"q 8 and 9 refer to in the Rama
has "shleo yishme'U". Whereas "aval beyachid", is about rebuking a yachid
- "lehokhichO".

The MB on this says that the two cases differ because with the masses,
it is okay to estimate that your words won't be heard, if it didn't
work the first time (or times -- the Rama writes "pa'am achas" but also
"lo yarbeh"). Whereas with an individual, you need the evidence of his
hitting or cursing you -- and the MB adds a yeish omerim: schold you --
before stopping.

It really seems that the the only time you continue until hit or cursed
(or scolded) is when an individual acting in private makes a mistake on
an issur explicit in the Torah. The Rama appears to be saying that unlike
with the masses, you shouldn't simply calculate that you won't be heard,
with an individual you need proof.

About the AhS, I think se'if 6 pretty clearly limits repeating the
tokhachah to cases where they are beshogeig and wouldn't want to sin,
and you have the Torah as clear proof that they are in error. They are
making a mistake so obvious, you cannot just guess they won't listen. And
yet still, he closes, even in this case, "mechyav lomar ulyyasram kamah
pe'amim... akh achar kakh, where he made a macha'ah a few times and it
didn't do anything -- yishtoq.

So the AhS is willing to take repeated failure as proof. Even if they
don't hit back.

Then in 7, and where it is bemeizid, lo shayakh lehodi'am... And he
invokes the gemara in Yavamos (65b).


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 28th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   4 weeks in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Malchus sheb'Netzach: What role does
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    domination or taking control play in building brotherhood?

..If taking interest makes you a kofer then surely circumventing

the prohibition through technical means is not what the Torah wants. So how
can we have a modern economy Al pi Torah given the prohibition on interest?


i would have thought that the prohibition on interest is a localized interpersonal Jew to Jew concept only.
one doesnt lend to his brother with interest.
 
we see that the torah understands that interest is a logical concept. 
lending to nJews is permissible and understandable
 
i would think a torah nation and economy would operate with interest from
banks to LLCs on a corporate level (based on RMF's heter to lend money to
an LLC with ribbis)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20240522/3edc25c8/attachment-0001.htm>

[Transliterations of the citations and the Maharal are mine. RJR posted
them in Hebrew. -micha]

A recent series in my local shul on male head coverings included the
following sources.
Shu"T Maharshal, siman 72
Shu"T Har Tzevi Orach Chaim 1 siman 3
Shu"T Yachaveh Da'at cheileq 4 sinam 1

This one especially made me laugh a bitter laugh because I found it
particularly resonant today:
Shu"T Maharshal, siman 72
Ve'akhshav hu leheifakh beqomah zequfah
einam nizharim.
Ve'aderabah! Hagei'im veha'ashirim holekhim neruyeiy garon.
Uvgiluy harosh einam nizharim lo machamas chassidus
ela soverim  Das Yehudis hi.

The rest made me think about the delicate dance between amcha and the
rabbis where it seems the people through their actions demand halachic
rabbinic validation. Besides the sources here I've also had recent
discussions concerning kol nidre and kaddish as examples where a simple
textual reading would lead you one way, but the practice is dramatically
different.

Any thoughts appreciated.

Bsorot tovot
Joel Rick


------------------------------



_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


------------------------------


**************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah/avodahareivim-membership-agreement/


You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org


When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."

A list of common acronyms is available at
        http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah/avodah-acronyms
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)