Volume 42: Number 33
Tue, 14 May 2024
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger
Date: Sun, 12 May 2024 15:34:46 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] mutav sheyihyu shogegim
On Mon, Mar 25, 2024 at 01:59:21PM +1100, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
> I can't see how Mutav applies once we've ALREADY advised them of their
> misdeed, they are ALREADY Mezid if they repeat and Mezid if they do not
> repent [Bein ALaMakom] or do not make restitution [Bein ALeChaveiro].
> It seems that R Micha recognises this by proposing that there are DEGREES
> of Meized and with additional rebuke the sinners Meized-nedd is intensified.
> It would be helpful to know where this notion originates.
Recall the context of this conversation. You asked two questions. This
one was:
> Chazal explain, the repetitive terminology indicates 'even one thousand
> times'
> Why is this necessary? If one checks numerous Esrogim or blows countless
> Tekios, and all are Passul, might one think that the duty no longer exists?
So my answer was not my belief about the halakhah, but addressing what
the hava amina would be by tokhachah that wouldn't apply to checking
the 101st esrog.
And I said, someone could take "mutav sheyihyu shogegim" as a sliding
scale, and thus that extra rebuke that you know at this point would just
make the issur worse for them shouldn't be given.
But we both agree that is not the masqana of the halakhah.
Although I am not saying the element that got rejected was the premise
that shogeig is a sliding scale. Maybe it's that the quantitative
difference isn't enough reason to stay silent; you need a qualitative
difference.
I was also wondering about it from another angle -- the guy's hitting
you is another issur. So, it would seem that giving tokhachah that you
know won't be accepted is so important that even though you are goading
him into a lav -- one that was sufficient for a youthful Moshe to judge
someone a rasha! -- you still give the tokhachah.
That said, since the gemara severely limits the situations where tokhachah
is appropriate, given our skills at saying things the first time in a
way that would be heard, this case is not likely to come up.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 19th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp 2 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent Hod sheb'Tifferes: When does harmony promote
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF withdrawal and submission?
Go to top.
Message: 2
From: Micha Berger
Date: Sun, 12 May 2024 15:39:40 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] kheref ayin
On Sun, May 05, 2024 at 09:25:05AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> If that's what you are suggesting, what's new here? For all problems, great
> and small, we need both tefilla and hishtadlus.
Something I don't hear people discuss WRT bitachon + hishtadlus = success...
Yaaqov prepared for Esav's approach in THREE ways:
- Tefillah - covering bitachon
- Doron - covering hishtadlus for success
- Preparing for war, including splitting into two camps.
It seems like Yaaqov Avinu was not only preparing for Hashem to grant him
success as he would like things to turn out. He also engaged in cutting his
losses if the usual prayer + hishtadlus does not get him safe passage.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 19th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp 2 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent Hod sheb'Tifferes: When does harmony promote
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF withdrawal and submission?
Go to top.
Message: 3
From: Micha Berger
Date: Sun, 12 May 2024 16:14:05 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] klalei psak
On Wed, Feb 21, 2024 at 04:29:47PM +0200, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote:
>> Rav Asher Weiss-The Rules of Rendering a Halachic Decision
>> https://torahanytime.com/lectures/283345
On Fri, 8 Mar 2024 13:31:30 -0500 I had a chance to listen and commented:
...
> Talmud Reclaimed, by R Shmuli Phillips (who is easily reachable on Facebook),
> gave a different explanation of the Sepharadi position. They would take the
> masqanah from the primary sugya on a topic. And if that means they ruled in
> ways the Baalei Tosafos would deem inconsistent, so be it.
Well, it seems the AhS does not agree that this is how the Rambam worked.
See YD 266:21, on the topic of a baby born at 8 months gestation. (He
refers you to his EhE 156:5-13, but I saw the YD when AhS Yomi got there
on Apr 22nd, and have had this post on my to-do list since.)
Toefta Shabbos (ch. 16) has what looks like a machloqes about how to
deretmine a ben shemonah:
Rebbe: the signs are that his hair and nails aren't finished. (Otherwise,
it could be a 7-month baby born late, not a 9- month born preemie.)
Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel: anyone who lives 30 days is not a neifel.
The AhS understands the Rambam as holding this is not a machloqes, but
rather either-or. If the baby has fully formed hair and nails or lives
30 days, it was a fully viable 7-month baby.
Whereas the Chakhamim say any baby not born to term is not born to term,
and neither sign matters.
And he says that the Rambam holds like the union of Rebbe and
RSBG. Because Shemuel (Shabbos 136a) holds like RSBG.
The main sugya, the Tosefta, would be understood by default to follow
the Chakhamim over either daas yachid.
So the AhS has the Rambam giving a non-trivial peshat in the main sugya
in the Tosefta because of a tangential comment in Mes' Shabbos.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 19th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp 2 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent Hod sheb'Tifferes: When does harmony promote
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF withdrawal and submission?
Go to top.
Message: 4
From: Micha Berger
Date: Sun, 12 May 2024 17:04:07 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] LeOlam baHem Taavodu
AhSY is spending weeks on YD 267, the ever-practcal Hikhos Avadim.
Se'ifim 134-135 discusses le'olam bahem ta'avodu. (135 adds the Rambam to
the point made in 134.)
Toras Kohanim emphasizes what is exluded: you can give an Eved Kenaani
whatever work you wish, but that only applies to actual work. You can't
simply abuse an eved -- neither by hitting or verbal abuse. Of course
there are no fines, but only because the ba'al would get posession of
anything paid the eved anyway.
The Rambam (9:5) then adds that even when it comes to work, it is middas
chassidus and darkhei chokhmah to be a rakchamn and rodeif tzedeq.
"Ve'ein ha-akhzaryius veha-azus metzhuyah elah be'ovedei kokkhavim..."
So, you may not abuse a slave and while giving them endless or pointless
work is permissible by Hilkhos Avdim, the Rambam reminds you that it
would violate Hikhos Dei'os.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 19th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp 2 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent Hod sheb'Tifferes: When does harmony promote
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF withdrawal and submission?
Go to top.
Message: 5
From: Rabbi Meir G. Rabi
Date: Tue, 14 May 2024 00:49:53 +1000
Subject: [Avodah] Tochacha Limitations Purpose
If I may begin with R Micha?s concluding comment
since the gemara severely limits the situations where tokhachah is
appropriate,
given our skills at saying things the first time in a way that would be
heard,
I believe this is entirely incorrect
There is no such exemption or limitation
There is no such Gemara
Mutav - as explained by R Yona,
[and no other interpretation ought to be accepted unless it is founded upon
the words of a Rishon]
means when the sinner is one who is well established as despising the words
of his teachers
In other words he once was a Yeshivah Bochur but has now turned his back on
Yiddishkeit
About him we say Mutav,
If the sinner would possibly listen to his teacher
then EVERY SINGLE YID has a duty, is commanded
to help that sinner
Even when we can all be absolutely certain that the sinner
will pay no heed to our words of encouragement.
We can discuss WHY such a command exists
But it is not yet germane
= = = = = = = =
We have a rule
Do not try to out-think, to be smarter than, HKBH
The righteous king did not have children because he foresaw they would be
terribly evil
he meant well - but he was wrong
And for that, the righteous king deserved to die
He did not because he accepted the rebuke of the Navi and repented
As the prophet said to him
Do not seek guidance from those things that are supposed to be concealed
You just follow HaShems instructions
Get married and have children
Similarly, At that moment Yishmael was righteous
Then he ought to be saved
No matter how much suffering, trauma and brutality
He and his descendants will inflict upon the Jews
Therefore, I fail to follow the Hava Amina argument of R Micha
That one not offer Tochacha
Because it might make matters worse
HKBH did not ask us to go figure out what is the best course of action
HKBH commanded us to provide rebuke/guidance/healing to stop the sinner
to reverse the damage
And we are commanded NOT to be harsh AT FIRST [RaMBaM DeOs Ch 6]
But if the sinner refuses to change to repent to pay reparations
We must become harsh
The simplest answer to the Q ?
Choosing an Esrog is PREPARATION for the Mitzvah
Blowing Shofar is the means by which we accomplish the Mitzvah
One thousand blowings, one thousand Passul Esrogim
Is a fantastic effort
But there is still no Mitzvah
So of course one must continue
But the Mitzvah of Tochacha may not be to FIX the sinner
Perhaps it is just the duty to reveal that we are opposed to his behaviour
THAT is the HAmina
And so once is enough
When the Torah reveals it is ongoing and indefinite
It is revealing that as long as this sinner is in the slightest way
tethered to his community
Even if he will only perhaps listen to his Rosh Yeshivah
But will certainly not listen to anyone else
The COMMUNITY has a duty to broadcast to publicise
Its utter rejection and absolute protest against this behaviour
It may well not be in the main to bring the sinner to repent
But to shore up the community
That the community must know must broadcast
what is right and what is wrong
= = = = = = = =
As for goading the sinner into perpetrating another evil
Cursing or even hitting another Yid
The Gemara says ? place it before the sinner let him eat it and suffer the
consequences
Best,
Meir G. Rabi
0423 207 837
+61 423 207 837
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20240514/440cea2d/attachment-0001.htm>
Go to top.
Message: 6
From: Zvi Lampel
Date: Sun, 12 May 2024 18:31:24 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Rabbi Akiva's Students' Deaths as Soldiers in Bar
https://asif.co.il/wpfb-file/6_2-pdf/
by R. Shmuel Yismach, I
<https://asif.co.il/files_author/%d7%94%d7%a8%d7%91-%d7%a9%d7%9e%d7%95%d7%90%d7%9c-%d7%99%d7%a9%d7%9e%d7%97/>gud
Yeshivot HaHesder
posted by Zvi Lampel
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20240512/37b244c9/attachment-0001.htm>
Go to top.
Message: 7
From: Rabbi Meir G. Rabi
Date: Mon, 13 May 2024 09:40:23 +1000
Subject: [Avodah] Kitniyos
It seems that the Kitniyos ban may have been misinterpreted. The ban may
well only apply to cooked and baked Kitniyot but not to raw,fresh Kitniyot
such as sweet peas, sugar snaps etc.and peanuts and peanut butter.
INTRODUCTION
It is vital to recognise that the Kitniyos ban was initiated when
home-baking Matza [486:3] throughout Pesach was the universal practice.
This was not the overbaked, hard, cracker type that we are familiar with
but soft and chewy laffa type Matza. [456:3 457:2; it has tragically
emerged that today very many do not even believe that Matza can be Kosher
if it is soft and chewy. Perhaps the very fact that soft Matza is
essentially indistinguishable from the Chamets version is uncomfortable and
has supported the acceptance and dominance of hard cracker type Matza]
In those days everyone was familiar with the severity of Chamets and and
respected the need to complete the Matza manufacturing within ?18 minutes?.
It would be unthinkable to have even the slightest concern that even the
most unlettered segment of the population would go anywhere near violating
this prohibition.
It seems strange then to suggest a credible risk existed that these same
people who were so exemplary and careful in baking their daily Matza,
ensuring that it not be Chamets, would somehow confuse Kitniyot with wheat
and barley, inadvertently producing Chamets.
This appears to be the problem the Poskim are grappling with when
explaining the foundation of the decree. [something that the Rama did not
bother with; and which leads to an interesting aside: how often do the
Poskim trouble themselves to explain the background for any of the Rama's
glosses?]
A careful reading of their writings [meaning by approaching them without
the preconceived notion that Kitniyos are banned in any shape or form]
indicates that the concern was prompted due to cooking Kitniyos [and some
add baking] but not to consuming raw fresh Kitniyot such as sweet peas,
sugar snaps etc.
And even regarding cooking, the MBerrurah finds it necessary to explain
that WHOLE GRAINS are not part of the actual ban but are included as Lo
Pelug [end of 6] ? in order to retain consistency.
In what way are cooked whole grains not the primary focus of the actual ban?
Best,
Meir G. Rabi
0423 207 837
+61 423 207 837
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20240513/ce82f179/attachment-0001.htm>
Go to top.
Message: 8
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 13 May 2024 16:44:19 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Tochacha Limitations Purpose
On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 12:49:53AM +1000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
> If I may begin with R Micha?s concluding comment
> since the gemara severely limits the situations where tokhachah is
> appropriate,
> given our skills at saying things the first time in a way that would be
> heard,
> I believe this is entirely incorrect
> There is no such exemption or limitation
> There is no such Gemara
Lehalakhah (MB 608:9), contrary to what we have assumed, giving tokhachah
more than once is prohibited.
Yevamos 65b:
R Ilaa said in the name of R Elazar beR' Shimon:
Kesheim shemitzah al adam lomar davar hanishma
kakh mitzvah al adam slo lomar davar she'eino nishma.
R Abba said:
It's mandatory, as it says "do not rebuke a leitz lest he hate you,
rebuke a chakhahm and he will love you." (Mishlei 9:8)
The above MB uses R Ilaa's language.
And the Beir Halakhah (s"q 2) cites the MA who in turn, cites Seifer
haChassidim #413) holds like R Abba that there is no obligation to give
tokhachah that would only foment hatred, unless "libo gas bo" already.
Meanwhile, over on the AhS, se'if 5, he has that any mitzvah not spelled
out in the Torah (even if deOraisa via derashah or halakhah leMosheh miSinai)
you do not give tokhachah even once for because "mutav sheyihyu shogegin".
Whereas those that are spelled out
mochin beyadan.
Ve'im yodeia' she'ein devarav nishma'in
lo yomar berabim lehokhichan raq paam echad.
Then he explains in se'if 6 "venir'eh li" that when people err in the
din, and think something is mutar, if you know for sure they will not
accept [the emes] from him, he should stay quiet.
When there is doubt whether they will listen, you are chayav to let them
know it's assur. Hashem knew that had the tzadiqim of the generation
of the churban given tokhachah, the resha'im wouldn't have listened. So
the mal'akhim asked Him, why then did He punish the tzadiqim for letting
evil flourish? Hashem answered: because the tzadiqim didn't know.
And even something mefurash baTorah, where you have to give tokhachah
when you know they won't listen, you have to tell them a few times and
show them it's explicit in the Torah.
Akh achar kakhm
keshemichah kamah pe'amim velo pa'el me'umah
yishtoq.
There are indeed limits.
Eiruchin 16b:
Tanya: R' Tarfon said "I would be astounded if there is someone
in this generation that can accept rebuke; were one to say 'remove
the splinter from between your teeth', he would respond 'remove the
beam from between your eyes'."
R' Elazar ben Azariah said "I would be astounded if there is someone
in this generation that knows how to give rebuke"...
Combine the two, and you get that it is prohibited to rebuke someone
who won't listen, and none of us know how to rebuke productively, so...
It makes sense for many to conclude that they won't be heard.
Leaving tokhahah to be something you do when (1) the halakhah being
violated is not explicit in the Torah and you are sure they wouldn't
listen, or (2) it is explicit, and you tried giving tokhachah only for
them to show that they won't listen.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 20th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp 2 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent Yesod sheb'Tifferes: What role does harmony
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF play in maintaining relationships?
Go to top.
Message: 9
From: Micha Berger
Date: Mon, 13 May 2024 17:27:56 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Rabbi Akiva's Students' Deaths as Soldiers in
On Sun, May 12, 2024 at 06:31:24PM -0400, Zvi Lampel via Avodah wrote:
> https://asif.co.il/wpfb-file/6_2-pdf/
> by R. Shmuel Yismach, Igud Yeshivot HaHesder
> <https://asif.co.il/files_author/%d7%94%d7%a8%d7%91-%d7%a9%d7%9e%d7%95%d7%90%d7%9c-%d7%99%d7%a9%d7%9e%d7%97/>
The idea that the Y-mi's "iskarah" wasn't a lung disease (askara) but the
type of low-ranking Roman soldier who carried a dagger (sicarii) also fits
Igeres R Sherira Gaon referring to their deaths as a "shamda". Persecution
is a term we would use for something caused by people, not disease.
But RSY in this article cites RSG then uses R Hai Gaon, RSG's son, as
proof that they died of disease -- by presuming the first definition of
"iskarah" when RHG uses the word. Whereas the whole argument is based
on assuming the two Greek words having the same transliteration.
In any case, you can see why the idea that Rabbi Aqiva ran a chain of
yeshivos (you can't get 48,000 into one beis medrash) whose talmidim
fought for Bar Kokhva would be a hot topic in Igud Yeshivot haHesder.
Debunking the the possible precedent wouldn't make RSY popular.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 20th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp 2 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent Yesod sheb'Tifferes: What role does harmony
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF play in maintaining relationships?
Go to top.
Message: 10
From: Jay F. Shachter
Date: Mon, 13 May 2024 17:12:54 -0500 (EDT)
Subject: [Avodah] El Al Flights To JFK Airport In New York
This posting appeared in our sister mailing list Areivim, v42i22:
>
> Every few years it seems the issue of a Cohen on an airplane flying
> over a cemetery comes up.
>
> I was at Beth David Cemetery in Elmont, Long Island today. There
> are over 250,000 graves there.
>
> After being there for 90 seconds, it is clear that the cemetery is
> in the flight path of JFK airport, with planes landing every few
> minutes.
>
> While El Al flights don't fly over the Holon cemetery to avoid the
> problem; what do El Al and Cohanim do when flying into JFK?
>
You could ask the same question about El Al planes that don't fly to
JFK airport.
I don't know why El Al flights don't fly over the Holon cemetery
(maybe some reader of this mailing list can address that -- I would
thank that Iggroth Moshe Yoreh De`ah 164:276 [1973] is dispositive),
because if you fly El Al often, the chances are good that you have
shared your airplane with several dead Jews in the cargo area.
It is quite reasonable that you might not know that, because the
flight attendants rarely announce that fact. Or, actually, never.
Let me check my memory here -- do I recall ever hearing the flight
attendants say, "Please fasten your seat belts, and, on behalf of
El Al, we would like to welcome you all to Flight #42 to Ben-Gurion
Airport, just as we welcome the several dead Jews who are flying
directly underneath you in the cargo hold"? Nope, I don't recall ever
hearing that announcement.
Nevertheless, you are probably aware of the fact that many Jews who
die outside of Israel are buried inside of Israel. Perhaps you have
never considered how those corpses get there. Consider it. They are
not transported there by boat. There are flown there. There are some
cargo-only flights that can be used to fly them to Israel, but they
also fly there on passenger fights, and El Al is one of the carriers
that carry them. The situation is similar to the situation discussed
in Yoreh De`ah 371:4. If a room's doors and windows are shut, it does
not spread tum'ah to the rest of the house, nor receive tum'ah from
the rest of the house, unless its walls or doors or windows are made
of gold or silver or bronze or iron or tin or lead. (And we should
totally discuss, some other time, whether the correct translation of
"nxosheth" is "bronze". Later.) The same ought to apply to a steel
airplane, or a spruce airplane, flying over a cemetery.
Actually, an airplane flying over a cemetery does not present the
exact same fact pattern as the partition between the cargo area and
the passenger area, because airplanes are actually quite porous, which
is why you don't suffocate when you fly in one. But then, neither do
you suffocate in a room whose door and windows are tightly shut. I
think Rabbi Moshe Feinstein was smart enough to realize all of that,
and, sof kol sof, it didn't bother him. So, as long as you are in
United States airspace, which you are when you are flying over Beth
David cemetery, you must follow the psaq of Rabbi Feinstein, otherwise
you are in violation of lo thithgoddu, a serious Torah prohibition.
This is the same Torah prohibition, pursuant to which it is forbidden
mid'oraitha to reject the hashgaxa of the Israeli Rabbanuth. But I
digress.
Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter
6424 North Whipple Street
Chicago IL 60645-4111
(1-773)7613784 landline
(1-410)9964737 GoogleVoice
j...@m5.chicago.il.us
http://m5.chicago.il.us
When Martin Buber was a schoolboy, it must have been
no fun at all playing tag with him during recess.
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
------------------------------
**************************************
Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
avodah@lists.aishdas.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah/avodahareivim-membership-agreement/
You can reach the person managing the list at
avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."
A list of common acronyms is available at
http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah/avodah-acronyms
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)