Avodah Mailing List

Volume 42: Number 17

Sun, 10 Mar 2024

• 1. Re: Do dogs have free will? (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: klalei psak (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Arbaa Turim - rows or columns? (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Shulchan Aruch Intent (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: AI in the Bet Medrash (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: AI in the Bet Medrash (Micha Berger)

On Sun, Feb 11, 2024 at 03:41:34PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> On Shemos 22:30, Rashi explains that treifos are given to the dogs
> specifically as "s'char" (reward - Rashi uses this word twice) for
> fulfilling "lo yecheratz kelev l'shono".  Does this s'char prove that the
> dogs had free choice in the matter? If not, then why would they be rewarded?

Does "sekhar" mean reward? Does "hasokheir es hapo'el" reward his employee?
It could even be contractual.

Maybe the nation that shows kavod to bread when we make Qiddush is
expected to repay the dog species regardless of their lack of choice.
For our own middos, if not them.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Despair is the worst of ailments. No worries
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   are justified except: "Why am I so worried?"
Author: Widen Your Tent                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

On Wed, Feb 21, 2024 at 04:29:47PM +0200, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote:
> Rav Asher Weiss-The Rules of Rendering a Halachic Decision
> https://torahanytime.com/lectures/283345

R Ashar Weiss opens by making a contraast between Sepharadi Rishonim and
Baalei Tosafos. The Maharshal says the latter make shas into a "ball"
and they "rolled it from place to place", referring to how they will
understand one sugya in light of the other. While Sepharadi rishonim
stayed much closer to the geonim.

WADR to RAW, given comments in Teshuvos haRambam, I don't think the Rambam
felt all that compelled to follow the geonim.

Talmud Reclaimed, by R Shmuli Phillips (who is easily reachable on Facebook),
gave a different explanation of the Sepharadi position. They would take the
masqanah from the primary sugya on a topic. And if that means they ruled in
ways the Baalei Tosafos would deem inconsistent, so be it.

RSP feels that this makes the whole Brisker project suspect, as it is
looking for the Rambam's "ball" of Talmud, and the Rambam never tried
to make one.

I disagreed. Compare to physicists -- some are experimentalists,
others are theoreticians. The Rambam's approach to pesaq parallels the
experimentalists. Tosafos -- theoreticians. That doesn't mean that when
all is said and done, there shouldn't be a theory unifying the disparate
"experiments" / pesaqim. Since the Rambam's Derekh is Emes, one of the
Shiv'im Panim, there has to be an explanation for it. Even if the Rambam
himself didn't seek one.

But, it does require being much more strict in chiddushim, in not
reshaping the Rambam's ruling with an uqimta or such in order to make
it fit your theory.

In any case, back to RAW, he holds that this Sepharadi perspective is
found ad hayom hazeh. That a Sepharadi poseiq is more likely to cite
sources than write his own sevara. (R Ovadiah Yosef came to my mind
when he said that.)


Another topic, one RAW spent more time on, he also approached in a way
different than I would have assumed.

The Chavatzeles haSharon quotes a chain of acharonim who hold that a
poseiq generally knows where the pesaq is going to be, and then reasons
his way to it. More recently, the Minchas Yitzcha says similarly.

RAW says he never understood it. Rather, the poseiq should ignore that
feeling and try to find Amito shel Torah without bias.

As I recently commented on the AI discussion, I was under the impression
that the process of pesaq not only includes ideas you can articulate, but
also attitudes and tendencies that can't be put into words. As I said, I
think this is why Chazal requires shimush rabbanim as a pre-requisite for
hora'ah. Because there are things you can only learn by osmosis.

And those go into that immediate feeling of where the pesaq ought to be.

Yes, you have to be honest enough when the logic of the sefarim forces
the poseiq to conclude your feeling comes from somewhere else, that it
just doesn't work. But I thought a major part of being a TC is becoming
the kind of person who has the right hunches.

Lots more, like chumeros vs qulos, etc... But I didn't plan on writing a
summary. Just raising the points that bothered me for further discussion.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 It is harder to eat the day before Yom Kippur
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   with the proper intent than to fast on Yom
Author: Widen Your Tent      Kippur with that intent.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                     - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at 11:18:33PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> On the one hand, [almost?] every English translation of these pesukim
> renders "tur" as "row". On the other hand, the major halachic code prior to
> the Shulchan Aruch was named "Arbaa Turim" (presumably named for these
> pesukim), which is not only universally translated as "Four Columns"...

So, later research showed -- machloqes rishonim.

I am wondering what this does to Qabbalah that associates shevatim with
particular stones and their color. Do the rishonim who define "tur" as
column also expect the named of the shevatim to be written in columns?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 "As long as the candle is still burning,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   it is still possible to accomplish and to
Author: Widen Your Tent      mend."
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF        - Anonymous shoemaker to R' Yisrael Salanter

On Wed, Feb 28, 2024 at 05:49:46AM +0200, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote:
> In the recent Hakira (34) there was an exchange concerning R Y Karo's
> authorial/intent in writing the S"A. R M Shapiro uses the introduction to
> the S"A to show " his purpose was to write a practical halachic work". R A
> Storch felt the purpose was, "a tool to remember the information contained
> in the Bet Yosef".

> I think R Shapiro's position is more widely held but I always wonder why
> then didn't the S"A stick more to apodictic laws rather than so many yesh
> omrims etc? Thoughts?

I thought it was the Cliff Notes to the BY. So, more like RAS's position.

Enough people thought as much for it to survive the Maharshal's and
Maharal's objections to codes. That by being preceded by the BY (and
Darkhei Moshe) and followed up by the standard Nosei Keilim, the final
Greater SA becomes part of the conversation down the generations rather
than reducing halakhah to a snapshot, a code.

Perhaps yeish omerim is a consequence of eilu va'eilu. The Mechaber or
Rama could have felt that both pesaqim are valid, even if they had a
preference for one.

We find this a lot in the AhS. Where he makes a strong argument for
one pesaq in one se'if, and a few se'ifim later he will explains how
people who hold the other way in the earlier se'if would pasqen in the
case now under discussion. I think that's why -- because he holds by
a range of valid pesaqim, and his preference for one of them is soft,
not to exclude the others.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy'
http://www.aishdas.org/asp    'Joy is nothing but Torah.'
Author: Widen Your Tent       'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'"
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                   - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l

On Wed, Jan 31, 2024 at 05:58:56AM Israel Time, R Joel Rich wrote:
> There are those that project that with advances in AI and VR, within 5-10
> years instead of teaching Socratic texts students will interact with
> Socrates in an open Socratic dialog. Will those who say AI psak is not
> appropriate also say that an AI/VR bet medrash is problematic?

My problem was that we would need an AI that was trained on teshuvos and
the like to get one that not only "knows" the relevant sources (which
could be given in prompts, even if by a database), but also "knows" the
ineffible feel for how those facts are to be evaluated. The shiqul hadaas
that comes from shimush talmidei chakhamim. Evan with such training,
it still wouldn't be the same. Do you want a pesaq on kibud av va'eim
from someone who never had a parent, doesn't miss that they didn't have
a parent, and doesn't even experience missing things. Recall what MRAH
answered the mal'akhim -- this is the very reason why lo nitenah haTorah
lemalakhei hashareis.

Others have pointed out the issue of siyata diShamaya, which a poseiq gets
that someone learning lomdus or some other lo lemaaseh doesn't receive.

Both of those issues are specific to pesaq.

That said, a VR or Augmented Reality (AR) contact is closer to real human
contact. But is it the same? Just knowing the person is physically present
matters on an emotional level. I am not saying that a VR Beis Medrash is
"problematic", just that being in a real Beis Medrash with live human
beings is bound to be superior. And the AI, one large step yet further.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 "As long as the candle is still burning,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   it is still possible to accomplish and to
Author: Widen Your Tent      mend."
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF        - Anonymous shoemaker to R' Yisrael Salanter

Over Shabbos, I read R Dr Moshe Koppel's essay
    https://mosaicmagazine.com/essay/politics-current-affairs/2024/03/what-artificial-intelligence-has-in-store-for-judaism/
I thini he is focusing more on sociology than hakakhah, on how he expects
people will lemaaseh adapt more than a discussion of how thing out to go.

but as a talmid chakham who runs an AI lab, he brings a good framework
for our discussion.

   Mosaic Magazine
   What Artificial Intelligence Has In Store for Judaism

   AI has the potential to change the way Jews study Torah, observe Jewish
   law, work with rabbis, and teach their children. Will Jews resist those
   changes or welcome them?

   Moshe Koppel is a member of the department of computer science at
   Bar-Ilan University and ...

   The industrial revolution brought freedom and prosperity to millions in
   the 19th century, while also presenting considerable challenges to
   millions more, perhaps especially to religious communities in general
   and to Judaism in particular. Opportunities for migration and
   urbanization, the diminution of communal interdependence, exposure to
   alien ideas and the breakdown of religious authority--all threatened
   the very survival of those communities in novel ways that demanded
   novel responses. Looking back, it would hardly be an exaggeration to
   say that it has taken centuries for Judaism to adapt.
...
   The coming information revolution, of which artificial intelligence
   (AI) is the most notable and best-known example, will no doubt offer
   great benefits, but will present even more serious challenges than the
   industrial revolution. As I will explain in a moment, these challenges
   include threats to human safety generally and to religious communities
   specifically. But, at the risk of sounding parochial in the spirit of
   Hugh Nissenson's short story "The Elephant and My Jewish Problem" or
   the satirical headline "World Ends: Minorities and Women Hardest Hit,"
   I will mostly keep my focus here on how traditional Judaism might be
   forced to grapple with the challenges and opportunities presented by
   AI.

   I will make two main points. First, drawing on work being done in my
   own AI lab in Israel, I will show how AI can provide tools that benefit
   Judaism by making Jewish texts and ideas more accessible. Second, I
   will suggest ways in which Judaism might, in return, offer models for
   purposeful and meaningful living, even as ubiquitous AI threatens to
   attenuate some of our deepest social and moral attachments.

Gut Voch!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries
Author: Widen Your Tent      about his own soul and his fellow man's stomach.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                     - Rav Yisrael Salanter


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