Avodah Mailing List

Volume 41: Number 75

Mon, 23 Oct 2023

• 1. Re: ?yedia brura? (David Riceman)
• 2. Students Disagreeing with Teachers, Reb Elchonon (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 3. Takanos, Minhagim Gezeiros and Seyagim (Was: Amora Differing with Tanna) (Zvi Lampel)

RJR:

> 
> In Moscow in 1936 Rav Moshe was asked (Y?D 1:54) concerning a situation
> where non-religious children were the only source of food for their
> religious parents. Could such children be relied upon concerning the kosher
> status of the food provided. He was mchadeish that while such individuals
> don?t have neemanut(halachic credibility),if the parents ?knew? that the
> children would not lie to them on this issue, they could be relied upon in
> a case of great need. A ?yedia brura?(clear knowledge?), based on actual
> experience would be required as well as an underlying theory as to why the
> child would not do such a thing.
> 
> It occurred to me that, even if a rabbi gave such a ruling, the ruling
> would be conditional on the parent?s judgment as to whether he had ?yedia
> brura?, rather than the rabbi?s evaluation of the knowledge. Quite a burden
> to put on somebody who will certainly be impacted by the result, any
> thoughts appreciated.
> 

It seems intuitive to me.  The rules of ne?emanus are for evaluating
strangers, not for people you know well.  If their daughter gave up
observance to avoid poverty, but she respects her parents? practice, that?s
yedia brura.  If she?s a communist ideologue who thinks that religion needs
to be subverted, even if she assures her parents that she?s providing them
kosher food, that?s not.

David Riceman

Rav Elchanan Wasserman (Kovetz Shiurim Bava Basra 633) in the name of Rav
Chaim Soloveitchik - an Amora HAS THE POWER to disagree with a Tanna but would
not do so in general. We therefore assume an Amora who disagrees was
unaware of the Tanna' opinion.

(In general, Occam's Razor etc., it seems that minimising the Machlokes
brings us much closer to the truth. It's more likely that a Machlokes
hinges upon a small perspective difference than a major one. So, trying to
align the Amoraim with them established position of a Tanna is just more
sensible and likely to be true.)

This only deflects the question to, and I believe this has been discussed
previously on this group  - WHY?

Meaning, why is the Amora not OBLIGATED to express his opinion as he
understand the Halacha? Notwithstanding his Disagreeing with a Tanna?

See the Gemara Shavuos 31a, that a student may not withhold or delay
correcting his Rebbe (and it seems this means even in public) and this is a
subsection of MidVar Sheker Tirchok.
I believe it is also associated with Lo SachaNiFu.

As for the consideration that Amoraim felt they were on a LOWER LEVEL, it's
difficult to comprehend that, because that notion runs contrary to the
entire edifice of Talmud Torah, that pursuing truth knows no limits,
infallibility is contrary to Toirah.

Reb Moshe F I believe wrote quite a bit about this, about not just
accepting a Pesak, his own Pesak, just because he ruled liked that.

A Rebbe who dismisses a Talmid by asserting authority is doing a terrible
injustice to Toirah and to that student. Amongst the apparently acceptable
destructive comments are, "If R Akiva Eiger didn't think of that answer
......"
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[Email #1, sent Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2023 8:53pm EDT. -micha]

From: "Rabbi Meir G. Rabi" <meir...@gmail.com>
> ...
> Gezeiros, Takanos and Minhagim (can someone explain how they differ from
> one another?)

 A Gezeira or Seyag, in contrast to a Takana or Minhag is a decree
initiated by Bes Din that /prohibits/ acts as a means of caution against
transgressing actual Torah prohibitions.

I  don't understand what difference in definition the Rambam holds between
a Gezeira and a Seyag. The commentaries on the Rambam (on his Mishneh
commentary on Eidyus 1:6) are also perplexed. Rashash attempts an answer of
sorts.

The difference between Takanah and Minhag seems clear (and Rav Kapich in
his Hebrew translation of the Rambam's hakdama to the Mishnah cites Rav
Sheilat on the same, saying this):

A Takana is a decree initiated by Bes Din to perform an act  that improves
the situation of society or the observance of mitzvos.

A Minhag is a practice that did not originate with the Bes Din, but with
the people, which Bes Din then approved of and made official.

(The description of Yom Tov Sheyni as a Minhag, may seem to contradict
this, since it was originally instituted by Bes Din. But the explanation
may be that the original institution was only for a time when we did not
rely on calculations to establish Rosh Chodesh. Yet the populace
voluntarily continued to keep a second day. Thus, the practice was begun by
the people, making it a Minhag.)



[Email #2, sent the next morning Fri, 20 Oct 2023 10:13am EDT. It opens by
referring to email #1.
-micha]

On Thu, Oct 19, 2023 I wrote:
> ... A Minhag is a practice that did not originate with the Bes Din, but
> with the people, which Bes Din then approved of and made official.

> (The description of Yom Tov Sheyni as a Minhag, may seem to contradict
> this, since it was originally instituted by Bes Din. But the explanation
> may be that the original institution was only for a time when we did not
> rely on calculations to establish Rosh Chodesh. Yet the populace
> voluntarily continued to keep a second day. Thus, the practice was begun by
> the people, making it a Minhag.)

> Mishneh Torah, Hilchos Shevisas Yom Tov, 6:14

All these things [regarding the second day of Yom Tov] we have said were
[so] during the time that the Bes Din of Eretz Yisrael sanctified [a day
as the beginning of the new month] based upon the sighting [by witnesses
of the new moon], and the people of the diaspora would make two days
[of Yom Tov] in order to deal with the doubt of not knowing what day the
people of Eretz Yisrael sanctified [as the beginning of the new month].

But nowadays, that the people of Eretz Yisrael rely on calculation and
sanctify [a day as the beginning of a new month] based upon that, the
purpose of Yom Tov Sheyni is not to deal with any doubt, but is solely
a Minhag.

Zvi Lampel


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