Avodah Mailing List

Volume 41: Number 70

Thu, 28 Sep 2023

• 1. Lab-Grown Esrogim (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: nisyonot (Micha Berger)
• 3. Proof of God's Existence? (Joel Rich)
• 4. Re: THE MEANING OF ROV AS PER THE RAMBAM (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Does the psak of bet din evidence the ratzon hashem? (Micha Berger)
• 6. One Day or Two? (Prof. L. Levine)
• 7. Re: THE MEANING OF ROV AS PER THE RAMBAM (Simon Montagu)
• 8. Re: Does the psak of bet din evidence the ratzon hashem? (Zvi Lampel)

I was wondering:

Would posqim who say that lab-grown meat is no more kosher or pareve than
the cells it was cultured from say the same about esrogim? Would they
consider a lab-grown esrog to be kosher?

There is another wrinkle -- murkav. An esrog branch grafted on a lemon
tree will grow murkavim even though there is no genetic impact on the
citrons.

So, for example, I would be surprised if an esrog cloned by putting esrog
DNA into a lemon pit that had all the lemon DNA scrubbed would be kosher.
The pit seems too much like a lemon tree's trunk.

But what about a straight lab-grown esrog, let's say the matrix it is
grown on would be no more alive than dirt.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Be happy not because everything is good,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   but because you can see the good side
Author: Widen Your Tent      of everything.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

The conversation was about my statement that I would neved tell a
Holocaust survivor who went off the derekh that he is guilty of being
a kofeir because "Hashem only gives people tests they can pass."

This is part of my general approach to checking hashkafic statements
for having more Truthiness than Truth:
    Would you tell it to a Holocaust survivor?
And there dies statements about bitachon causing positive outcomes, or
stories about zekhuyos or mezuzah in particular procting people, and even
simple peshat of "Naar hayisi vegam zaqanti velo ra'isi tzadiq neezav..."

In this case:

Not everything is a nisayon. So, while Hashem may not give a nisayon to
someone who cannot pass it, which is what the Ramban says on Bereishi
22:1, the intro to the Aqeidah, "veH' nisah es Avraham", that doesn't
mean that a person can overcome every tragedy that comes their way!

(OTOH, the Ramban's isn't the only take on that pasuq. See Chizquni or
the IE (ad loc). They say the point in the case of the Aqeidahwas for
others -- third parties -- to see his example. Chizquni: the prosecuting
angel; IE: other people.)

On Sun, Sep 24, 2023 at 04:58:37PM -0600, Daniel Israel wrote:
> This is never how I understood this concept at all, but I have no
> source. Who says we know what the nisayon was, and what constitutes
> passing or failing?

I don't think a nisayon is that kind of test. After all, HQBH doesn't
need to test you to Know what you are capable of, and as you note --
you don't get a grade back.

I would translate it more like "growth opportunity" or "hurdle to
overcome". Like checking if you can lift a given weight; it's not as
much about finding out whether or not you can, it's the exercise that
would make lifting future weights easier.

If you need to use the word "test", think of something more like a
military testing ground, more than a teacher's test.

But the contemporary translations seem to be more on target than "test".
Google offers experience, attempt, practice, try...

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 When we are no longer able to change a situation
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   -- just think of an incurable disease such as
Author: Widen Your Tent      inoperable cancer -- we are challenged to change
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    ourselves.      - Victor Frankl (MSfM)

Some very interesting discussion (with pushback) concerning "knowing" that
God exists.



https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/1075784

Rabbi Itamar Rosensweig-????? ?? ???? ?? ??? ?????: ???????, ?????, ?????


Gmar Tov,


Joel Rich
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On Thu, Sep 21, 2023 at 06:53:14PM -0500, Brent Kaufman via Avodah wrote:
>> But to my surprise, even in the context of those pesukim, the Rambam in
>> the third perek of Hilchos Teshuva, second halacha...
>>  He writes that when one's sins (in the sense of their seriousness)
>> attain the majority over one's virtues, one thereby is judged a rasha.

> However, the Rambam goes on to say shortly afterwards (in the same halacha)
> that "majority" isn't considered by quantity but rather quality...

I would read the Rambam as measuring sins rather than counting them. Like
grapes being sold by weight. It's still quantitative, just not in the
same way as buying apples by the apple.

This kind of read is compelled by the previous halakhah (3:1):
    Every human being has zekhuyos and avanos. Someone whose zekhuyos
    are yeseiros (greater) than his avonos is a tzadiq. And someone
    whose avonos are yeseiros than his zekhuyos is a rasha. Half-and-half
    is a beinoni.

I translated "yeseiros al" as greater than rather than outnumber because
of the point you raised. The total pile of As is bigger than the B pile
(or weighs more, if you prefer that mashal), even if there are more Bs.

So it would seem that yeseiros and merubin have similar meanings.

I also assumed mechtza al mechtza means *roughly* half-and-half, since I
cannot picture there are any people who are precisely in balance.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 What we do for ourselves dies with us.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   What we do for others and the world,
Author: Widen Your Tent      remains and is immortal.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                      - Albert Pine

On Thu, Sep 21, 2023 at 06:03:28PM -0400, Zvi Lampel via Avodah wrote:
> From: Joseph Kaplan Tue, 19 Sep 2023 18:56:27
> > Doesn?t the Talmudic story of the tanur of Akhnai teach us that ratzon
> > Hashem is not particularly relevant in halachic disputes?
> 
> The commentators take a much more nuanced view towards the relevance of
> ratzon haShem in halachic disputes...

Al rishon rishon.... Starting with the initial question about whether
a judgment of beis din is necessarily an expression of Retzon haBorei
we got to pesaq.

I would argue that pesaq is different in kind. Because if it's not a mesechtes
Horiyos kind of situation, we could say, kulam meiRo'eh Echad. (Chagiga 3b
<https://www.sefaria.org/Chagigah.3b.3-4>). Or, "eilu va'eilu divrei
Elokim Chaim".

To me it would seem that when both shitos are valid, they are both Divine
Will.

That is different than asking about a particular person losing money in
BD that he didn't actually owe the other party. (Or worse.)

At least, according to everyone below but RNG, that would work. How
he understands that gemara as well as the words "eilu va'eilu"
requires discussion. Or maybe someone could write a whole book on the
subject. <wink>

(See https://amzn.to/48z1n0f, Understanding Machlokes, by the same R
Zvi Lampel. A/k/a The Dynamics of Dispute, plus 30 more years of ameilus.)

Whether one takes eilu va'eily or kulam meiro'eh echad literally seems
to depend on how one reads the tanur [shel] Akhenai story. I once
blogged my retelling of the Ency Talmudit's list of shitos on the subject:
<https://aspaqlaria.aishdas.org/2005/01/08/legislative-authority-of-bas-qol>

The problem is that while we didn't follow the bas qol in this story, we
do follow the bas qol that said "eilu va'eilu... vehalakhah keBeis Hillel."
So VIDC -- vos is der chiluq (as RYGB used to pose in Avodah's early days) --
between the two cases?

   1- Rav Nissim Gaon (Berachos 19a), opinion I: The bas qol said
   "halachah k'moso b'chol makom". As a general rule, the halachah is like
   R' Eliezer, but not here. The halachic conclusion does not contradict
   the bas qol, and it's even possible that the BQ caused them to reach
   their decision.

   2- Ibid, opinion II: The bas qol was only a test for the sages. Again,
   normally BQ would have halachic power.

   3- Tosfos (Eiruvin 6b) I: The bas qol was only for the kavod of R'
   Eliezer, who called down the opinion of Shamayim. BQ does NOT have
   halachic authority.

   #3 is only possible (assuming that G-d doesn't lie) by saying that R'
   Eliezer and R' Yehoshua were in an eilu va'eilu situation -- both were
   right. Therefore, to show R' Eliezer respect, G-d asserts that R
   Eliezer isn't wrong even though the halachah is like R' Yehoshua. In
   short, exactly the same point made by the BH vs BS story.

   4- Tosfos II: There is a difference between whether the bas qol runs
   counter to metahalachah (normal halachic process), or in accordance
   with it. Bas qol can confirm a ruling, but not run counter to normal
   halachic process. Metahalachically, we follow BH because they are the
   majority. The BQ only confirms that fact.

   (Why did it need confirmation? Probably because this is the first
   generation that the Sanhedrin was in exile, and because BS were
   generally considered the sharper group. Therefore there was a crisis in
   confidence in rejecting BS's opinion without word from the Chamber of
   Hewn Wood.)

   5- Or Samei'ach (Yesodei HaTorah 9:4): There is a distinction between
   whether the bas qol is clarifying a particular halachah and whether it
   speaks of a person's ruling. In the first case, BQ is certainly
   not followed -- metahalachah is the G-d-given means of creating new
   halachah. (cf Temurah 16:1, where the prophet Yehoshua refuses to
   retrieve lost halachos via prophecy.) In the second, we do follow
   Beis Hillel, as per the BQ. (Although R' Yehoshua disagreed about
   this use of bas qol as well.)

   #5 appears to be nearly identical to #4, but with the added statement
   that given two true answers (speaking of one of two extant rulings),
   i.e. metahalachah allows one to follow either, BK can be followed. His
   conclusion is that even had BH and BS been of equal number, the
   halakhah would still be like BH.

   In short: RNG gives authority to BQ to override halachic process, and
   the Achnai story's bas qol is a special case for two different reasons.
   Tosafos and the OS agree that BQ has less authority than metahalachah,
   and possibly even no halachic say at all.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   greater vanity in others; it makes us vain,
Author: Widen Your Tent      in fact, of our modesty.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF            -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980)

From

https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/7073

What is a Chutznik in Eretz Yisrael to Do?


Although the famed Chacham Tzvi, and later the Shulchan Aruch Harav, ruled
that even one merely visiting Eretz Yisrael over Yom Tov should keep only
one day of Yom Tov like the natives (to paraphrase: ?when in Israel, do as
the Israelis do?),[7]<https://ohr.edu/7073#_edn7>
nevertheless, the vast majority of halachic authorities, including the
Shulchan Aruch himself and even the Chacham Tzvi?s own son, Rav Yaakov
Emden, maintained that vistors? status is dependant on whether or not their
intention is to stay and live in Eretz Yisrael, or to return to Chutz
La?aretz, known as ?im da?atam lachzor?.[8]<https://ohr.edu/7073#_edn8>

This dictum is based on Gemara Pesachim (51a - b) regarding Rabba Bar Bar
Chana, Rav Ashi, and Rav Safra. As elucidated by the Shulchan Aruch in his
responsa (Shu?t Avkas Rochel 26), anyone who has Da?as Lachzor, intention
to return, maintains his original status as if he were still in the place
from ?whence he came?.[9<https://ohr.edu/7073#_edn9>

Practically, this means that if one is planning on living in Eretz Yisrael
he would keep only one day of Yom Tov. Correspondingly, if planning on
returning to Chutz La?aretz, one must still observe a two-day Yom Tov, even
while currently staying in Eretz Yisrael.

See the above URL for much more.

Professor Yitzchok Levine



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On Fri, Sep 22, 2023 at 5:52?PM Brent Kaufman via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

> I (me CBK) question why he wrote this halacha at all, since it is not
> practical in any way. Can anyone shed light on this?
>

The Rambam explains two halachot later why he wrote this:  "Accordingly,
throughout the entire year, a person should always look at himself as
equally balanced between merit and sin and the world as equally balanced
between merit and sin. If he performs one sin, he tips his balance and that
of the entire world to the side of guilt and brings destruction upon
himself; if he performs one mitzvah, he tips his balance and that of the
entire world to the side of merit and brings deliverance and salvation to
himself and others."

In other words, davka because only HKBH can make the determination, we can
never afford to say to ourselves "what difference will it make if I
do/don't do X?", and we need to see our every action as crucial to the
entire world. What could be more practical than that?
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Thank you Reb Micha for plugging my sefer. It's all the more appreciated in
view of the fact you disagree with me on some of the issues, such as eilu
v-eilu. It shows that you are a true practitioner of Widening Your Tent.
https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

With that introduction, here's a disagreement.

RMB:

>    1- Rav Nissim Gaon (Berachos 19a-b), opinion I: The bas qol said
>    "halachah k'moso b'chol makom". As a general rule, the halachah is like
>    R' Eliezer, but not here. The halachic conclusion does not contradict
>    the bas qol, and it's even possible that the BQ caused them to reach
>    their decision.
>
>    2- Ibid, opinion II: The bas qol was only a test for the sages. Again,
>    normally BQ would have halachic power.
>
>     ... RNG gives authority to BQ to override halachic process, and
>    the Achnai story's bas qol is a special case for two different reasons.
>     ....
>

ZL:  I don't think so. Rav Nissim Gaon explicitly explains that his
explanations are in response to the problem that the majority view was so
buttressed by proofs that R. Eliezer had no way of countering them (so how
could a bas kol disagree),

In the first answer the bas kol was not making a halachic statement at all.
In the second answer the bas kol was as illegitimate as a false prophet,
because there is no place for a bas kol in the halachic process. "The Torah
of Hashem is complete, and already given to us at Sinai, and He let us know
that He would switch over not one statement of it. Our Torah lacks nothing
and has no doubts for which we would need a proof from Heaven.

In other words, according to RNG, the human halachic protocol discovers the
true intent of the Torah (read, the ratzon haSheim), and any bas kol
disagreeing with it is a miscontrance of its intent.

Zvi Lampel

[image: image.png]
[image: image.png]
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