Avodah Mailing List

Volume 41: Number 69

Mon, 25 Sep 2023

• 1. Does the psak of bet din evidence the ratzon hashem? (Zvi Lampel)
• 2. Re: WHAT DOES KAPARAH ACCOMPLISH? (Brent Kaufman)
• 3. Re: WHAT DOES KAPARAH ACCOMPLISH? (David Riceman)
• 4. Re: THE MEANING OF ROV AS PER THE RAMBAM (Brent Kaufman)
• 5. Re: WHAT DOES KAPARAH ACCOMPLISH? (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: nisyonot (Daniel Israel)

>
>
> From: Joseph Kaplan Tue, 19 Sep 2023 18:56:27
>
> Doesn?t the Talmudic story of the tanur of Akhnai teach us that ratzon
> Hashem is not particularly relevant in halachic disputes?
>
> Joseph
>
> ------------------------------
>

The commentators take a much more nuanced view towards the relevance of
ratzon haShem in halachic disputes. Sefer Hachinuch (496:3) in his comments
on Bava Metzia 59b, acknowledges that halachic protocols them?selves
override the desire for following the true halacha. But he makes it clear
that identifying the true halacha is the initial goal the Sages strive to
reach.

Drashos HaRan adds that the incident of the tanur of Ackhnai represents an
extremely rare aberration where the majority opinion proved mistaken, yet
which we should nevertheless follow, despite the resultant damage done to
our souls. This, he explains, is because in the extremely rare instance
where the majority of Sages reach the wrong conclusion, the downside of
that damage is outweighed by the benefit of the nation uniformly following
the sages' conclusions.

We understand that the darchei pesak do lead us to the true ratzon haShem
in the vast majority of cases, and it is very relevant.

Earlier commentators are entirely dismissive of the possibility that the
Sages could be disregarding the ratzon haShem. Rabbeinu Nissim Gaon on
Berachos 19b  gives two explanations for why the sages disregarded the Bas
Kol. One is that the Bas Kol was NOT saying that Rebbi Eliezer's minority
opinion was the ratzon haShem. The majotity opinion was correct. The
Bas Kol was only announcing that in all OTHER cases Rebbi Eliezer's opinion
was correct or nearly so. (Perhaps he means the Bas Kol was standing up for
R. Eliezer's honor, even though he was wrong in this case.)

In his second answer, Rabbeunu Nissim Gaon asserts that the Bas Kol was
actually lying. The true halacha actually was as the majority decided.
Hashem sent the Bas Kol specifically to test the Sages whether they would
forgo the principle of ?It is not any longer in Heaven,? similar to the
test posed by Hashem in allowing a false prophet to ostensibly perform
miracles.

(Apparently, this is also how the Rambam would explain the phenomenon of
Hashem releasing the Bas Kol opinionating on whose halachic stand is
correct.)

Zvi Lampel
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WHAT DOES KAPARAH ACCOMPLISH?

We need to differentiate between Kaparah, which is translated as atonement,
and Slichah and Mechilah, which mean forgiveness.
Forgiveness means that the One/one offended by the transgression no longer
harbors animosity towards the transgressor for what was done.
However, even after forgiveness is given/attained there is still spiritual
damage caused by the transgression, to the soul of the sinner.
Kaparah/atonement is the removal of that spiritual damage that was done to
the soul. That is what Kaparah accomplishes.

Chaimbaruch Kaufman
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RZL:

> 
> 
>> From the fact that in the last case kaparah comes only after one's death,
> we can see that the Rambam's definition of kaparah is not release from
> hardships in this world, but release from punishment in the Afterlife.
> 
> 
Here's an alternative.	Sins, and especially public sins, have negative
repercussions as precedents.  "Do you remember when Ploni Almoni got drunk
on Shabbos, stole a motorcycle, and went on a joy ride?" As long as people
are still talking about it -- and with some envy or admiration -- Ploni has
an obligation to the public to make sure they know he's still doing tshuva.

David Riceman

>>  But to my surprise, even in the context of those pesukim, the Rambam in
the third perek of Hilchos Teshuva, second halacha, translates it as
"attained majority."
>>  He writes that when one's sins (in the sense of their seriousness)
attain the majority over one's virtues, one thereby is judged a rasha.

However, the Rambam goes on to say shortly afterwards (in the same halacha)
that "majority" isn't considered by quantity but rather quality; and, as he
says, only HKBH can make that determination, I (me CBK) question why he
wrote this halacha at all, since it is not practical in any way. Can anyone
shed light on this?

Chaimbaruch Kaufman
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On Thu, Sep 21, 2023 at 07:08:49PM -0500, Brent Kaufman via Avodah wrote:
> We need to differentiate between Kaparah, which is translated as atonement,
> and Slichah and Mechilah, which mean forgiveness.
> Forgiveness means that the One/one offended by the transgression no longer
> harbors animosity towards the transgressor for what was done.
> However, even after forgiveness is given/attained there is still spiritual
> damage caused by the transgression, to the soul of the sinner.
> Kaparah/atonement is the removal of that spiritual damage that was done to
> the soul. That is what Kaparah accomplishes.

The Avudraham has:

Selichah is forgiving a loan. It gets one out of the onesh.

Mechilah is forgiving a wrong. It heals a relationship.

Kaparah is a cover, like on the aron. Or the kofer (pitch) put on wood
to waterproof it, or the kefor of frost atop the mon. It contains the
cause of the sin.

(Then taharah is its actual elimination, leaving a soul as pure as the
menorah's "zahav tahor". "Ki bayom hazeh yekhapeir aleikhem letaheir
eskhem...")

Whereas RSRH has the order in descending magnitude: selichah is the full
repair of the sin, whereas kapparah is containment of the punishment.

GCT and :-)@@ii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Problems are not stop signs,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   they are guidelines.
Author: Widen Your Tent              - Robert H. Schuller
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

This is never how I understood this concept at all, but I have no source.  Who says we know what the nisayon was, and what constitutes passing or failing?  

Take someone who came to America in the 1880s and felt they had no choice
but to take a job on Shabbos to support their family.  But the person was
determined to raise children with Yiddishkeit as best he could and sent
them to Jewish schools.  Did the person pass or fail?  What was the test? 
We won?t find this man?s story highlighted in typical frum publications,
but what is his schar for all the grandchildren he has in Yeshiva?

A nisayon is not a pop quiz in Kitzur Shulchan Aruch.  It?s a deep test in
who we are as a person.  We don?t know what HaShem is testing us for, and
perhaps we never know (in this world), whether we passed.

This seems clear to me.  OTOH, for myself, I know that a personal nisayon I regularly face is not to use this understanding as an excuse.

?
Daniel M. Israel
dan...@israels.me

> On Aug 28, 2023, at 2:52 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, Aug 22, 2023 at 05:11:19PM -0400, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote:
>> I was comforted to hear that R H Schachter believes that some people are
>> given nisyonot that they can't overcome and thus are held blameless (it
>> took me decades to come to believe that after being constantly told the
>> opposite). Your thoughts?
> 
> The alternative is to be prepared to blame a Holocaust survivor who lost
> his faith for becoming a kofeir.



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