Avodah Mailing List

Volume 41: Number 56

Sun, 30 Jul 2023

• 1. Techeiles nowadays vs a few decades ago (Joel Rich)
• 2. Re: Motive for the Restart of Smicha (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Motive for the Restart of Smicha (Joel Rich)
• 4. Re: Learning is Good (Micha Berger)

My recollection from the late 60s was simply that it had been debunked because the process could be used. I?m just about any fish or whatever to get that color

Kt
Joel Rich

On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 03:52:52PM -0400, Joel Rich wrote:
> I would think that heavenly kappara might only be associated with heavenly
> established lashes

The aforementioned medieval batei din disagreed.

Also, misevara...

Misah is mechapeir, and Hashem allowed malkos from a non-beis din just as
He allowed someone's natural death.

Personally, I would think that any suffering that breaks one out of a
rote that includes sins would be mechaper. After all, they effected
teshuvah-like change by giving an opportunity to think about resuming
one's old ways.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Zion will be redeemed through justice,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   and her returnees, through righteousness.
Author: Widen Your Tent
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 1:44PM Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> There is a long history of the rabbinate, without semichah, using
> corporeal punishment as needed for the survival and integrity of the
> community.

> You need a beid din of semuchim for obligatory malkus, but that's not
> the only case in which corporeal punishment is permitted.

> So, what could they accomplish that could only be done through semichah?

I would think that heavenly kappara might only be associated with heavenly
established lashes

kt
joel rich

On Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 05:53:53AM +0300, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote:
>                                  Given that according to the Gra the
> mitzvah of limud torah (for men) applies anytime you're not doing something
> else that has a higher mitzva priority at that time, limud torah must be a
> very high priority.

The Meshekh Chokhmah notes that while going to give a shiur is dokheh
Sukkah, learning isn't even dokheh building a Sukkah.

He comes in strongly in favor of lilmod al menas lelameid being what
trumps other mitzvos. Leshitaso, the Torah ends at the last pasuq
definitely written by Mosheh. The last 8 pesuqim are subject to a
machloqes as to whether Yehoshu wrote them down because they are not
part of the Torah, they are a codicil required for a Sefer Torah to
be kosher the way the kelaf is. And why are they there? To teach the
importance of passing the baton to the next generation.

See his comment on Devarim 28:61, which I translated and expanded
on at https://aspaqlaria.aishdas.org/2021/08/27/learning-and-teaching

The other opinion in the gemara also complicates prioritization. Either
al menas lelameid or the point of Talmud Torah is al menas la'asos. Which
is broader than practical halakhah, as one needs motivation to bother
doing it, and the elegance of a good sugyah is a good chizuq emunah.

Either way, the priority of learning is derivative, and therefore it
is hard to use arguments of importance. If one needs to learn in order
to... learning gets priority because one is caring for the goose, not
because it is the golden egg. And so, the importance would depend on the
identity and importance of the "egg", possibly more so than questions
of metzuveh ve'oseh of the learning itself. (And possibly not. I
just want to raise the question, not take a side.)

> Starting with the cognitive (versus emotional) evaluation, how do we view
> the category of eino metzuveh voseh? ...

The way I see it, the metzuveh ve'oseh needs the mitzvah enough for Hashem
to tell him he must do it. Whereas the einah metzuvah apparently can get
by without it.

This would explain the greater reward, as well as the yeitzer hara's
resistence. We talk about the yh"r's greater resistence because of
the psychology of "why do I gotta?" But it is also bound to resist more
something making a more fundamental change. And the fact that it is
making necessary change itself justifies greater sekhar.

Nidon didan... I would argue that men for some reason are wired to require
book learning to be better Jews in ways that women can absorb in other
ways. This is the only way I could see rationally explaining why we are
metzuvim, and women are not. (Not that everyone must agree there is a rational
explanation,)

Men need the change theoretical learning brings, or for us are more
capable of getting that change compared to other ways that may be more
effective for women. And therefore it hits more resistence. AND, therefore
the man ends up more changed, and more a person who now needs / deserves
a different life than he did before.

> Further how might we evaluate what can make us a better eved hashem? ...

Personally, I feel that "eved Hashem" isn't a concept that does much to help
one define the goal. And I would say the same of "refining one's middos / tzelem
E-lokim". Yes, these are thinfs we are supposed to do with our lives. But...

What does an "eved Hashem" look like? What mission did the Boss give
humanity? The Jewish People? (Hopefully soon we yisraelim will be able
to add: My sheivet?" to the list.) What is His mission for me personally?

And isn't that the question we were trying to answer to begin with?

We get a reframing of the problem, but not an answer.

(And in the case of "refining oneself", too. It begs the question of what
the ideal human we are to be striving for looks like.)

> we use connection with HKBH or perhaps the Rambam's first mitzvah of
> knowing HKBH as partial measures?

The Rambam expects people to do the right thing out of knowledge of Hashem
and The Truth. More so than out of middos (see the opening 2 peraqim
and the closing of Moreh Nevuchim). I don't think too many people see
themselves this way, and psyhologists certainly don't. Our emotions,
drives, and unconscious thoughts drive our beiefs far far more than the
other way around.

So personally, if one is talking tachlis, I would avoid the Rambam or
any of the Aristotilians.

> After I wrote this, I found this from R' Amital:
> The study of Torah brings you closer to God. No one understands how this
> works. But if you focus your study on Jewish philosophy, Tanakh, or other
> subjects -- you will fail. The Oral Law is the basis for everything -- faith,
> Torah, yirat shamayim, love of mitzvot. Afterwards, of course, it is
> necessary to supplement with aggada and mussar, Tanakh and philosophy. But
> the foundation of all foundations is the Oral Law.

And with all due respect to the Rambam, the unemotional contemplation of
its truth doesn't do the same for me.

I dunno about the "no one understands"... What speaks to the truth of Torah
and embracing it as a lifestyle more than the experience of that lightbulb
going off when all the pieces fit together?

There is something about a good math proof that mathemticians look at
and call "elegant". I am not talking about the emotional response, but
the thing that triggers it. It is neither the aesthetic judgement itself,
nor a Maimonidian getting back to pre-sin Adam, i.e. getting above one's
middos through thought.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Zion will be redeemed through justice,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   and her returnees, through righteousness.
Author: Widen Your Tent
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF


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