Avodah Mailing List

Volume 41: Number 55

Fri, 21 Jul 2023

• 1. Re: Golem (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Keli Sheni (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Questions about Bilaam (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: HKBH begs Moshe Rabbenu to Understand (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: codes and organization: (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: awe (Micha Berger)
• 7. Techeiles nowadays vs a few decades ago (Akiva Miller)
• 8. Showering During the Nine Days (Prof. L. Levine)
• 9. Re: Techeiles nowadays vs a few decades ago (Micha Berger)

On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 07:49:45PM -0400, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote:
> Any thoughts on why the chacham tzvi decided to address the golem issue. I
> understand that there were Kabbalistic masters, who claimed the ability.
> Perhaps there were also secular myths and stories (alchemists et al) at the
> time?

The idea of golem is in the gemara. E.g. Sanhedrin 65b has Rava making a
non-speaking humunculous (word "golem" not used) and giving it to Rav
Zeira.

The word golem is used a bit later (38b) to describe Adam before recieving
a nishmas chayim.

Perhaps I would know if I saw the Chakham Tzevi's specific wording why
it is more of a quesiton why he would address a topic found in the gemara
than any other such topic.

In fact, in his day in the 17th and early 18th cent CE, the Enlightenment
was hitting Europe and such fantastical stories were being questioned
like never before. So, maybe it's not that the alchemists were playing
with the idea that there was a rise of pushback against such attempts. And
so our mesorah needed defending.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Zion will be redeemed through justice,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   and her returnees, through righteousness.
Author: Widen Your Tent
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

On Sat, Jul 15, 2023 at 08:35:47PM +1000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
> It seems that Tos are saying that the contents of a pot, if mainly water
> gets heated to 100C no matter how hot the fire is
> more heat just makes it boil more
> to get it hotter you must use a pressure cooker
> if there is Shmaltz etc. that may get a little hotter than 100C
> 
> The walls of a KRi however, they get as hot as the fire
> maybe 350C
> so when you take the KRi off the fire it continues to boil

But what about the corner-case I raised?

A pot that is taken off the fire and cooled to just near the lowest
of yad soledes bo is still a keli rishon until it cools enough to touch.

Another pot that had boiling water poured into it 2 min ago would
be entirely 100degC / 212degF -- and if it's stew, event hotter. And
yet it is a keli sheini.

So you have a keli rishon that is cooler than a keli sheini, not getting
any new heat. Lower temp, and the heat is flowing out, and yet it's the
keli rishon, not the other.

And this is why I am convinced physics and the resulting chemistry of the
food in the pots isn't the way to go.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Zion will be redeemed through justice,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   and her returnees, through righteousness.
Author: Widen Your Tent
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

On Wed, Jul 05, 2023 at 03:07:57PM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
> Bilaam was a Navi who chazal say was as great in nevua as Moshe Rabenu. If
> so, how was he such a rasha? Why did he want to curse hashems nation, the
> Jewish people? Why did he think he would succeed?

The Scholastic rishonim consider nevu'ah "natural", except maybe for
Moshe's. In other words, if you develop your awareness of ruchnius enough,
you would naturally "see" what's going on among mal'akhim and such.

Other rishonim understand nevu'ah as a message given by Hashem.

So the Scholastics, and perhaps both camps, would ask the reverse question:
If Bilaam was so out of touch with ruchnius and Hashem's values, how did
he become a navi?

Could be that this is why chazal simply say it was a gift to the nations,
so that they cannot say we didn't even have the keilim to know what You
wanted. It doesn't make sense, but Hashem had to give someone nevu'ah, even
if they lacked the grounding to get that kind of power and not be corrupted.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Zion will be redeemed through justice,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   and her returnees, through righteousness.
Author: Widen Your Tent
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

On Mon, Jun 12, 2023 at 10:40:02AM +1000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
> And if her father spat in her face would she not be humiliated for seven
> days?

> Why is HKBH saying this to MR?

Perhaps because Vehalakhta biDrakhav and/or veAnveihu require understanding
what apparent / keveyakhol Motives Hashem wants us to emulate.

-Micha

On Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 06:34:05AM +0300, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote:
> I completely agree about the Rambam being a master organizer, the ability
> to intake all of the oral and written law and output an organized, concise
> code is beyond my comprehension.

I am not sure this is a good thing. See Mishnayos. Rebbe resists isolating
each din as far as the Rambam took it.

The first mishnah enters in the middle of the topic of Shema -- not
"do we say it?" but "when?" And then it has to be linked to tum'ah and
kehunah.... Perhaps because the start and end times for Shema only make
sense in relation to other dinim.

Rather than Reductionism, perhaps halakhah cannot be understood until
you see how everything is connected.

From how I frame them, I don't find your suggestion intuitive.
> 
> I have an intuitive sense that having started with the sefer hamitzvot for
> the mishna torah blueprint, his specific rulings were consciously made in
> the context of their impact on every other ruling in the MT...
> 
> I'm sure the Tur was also aware of all the TSBP but I wonder if it's in any
> way similar to what some commentators think that Rashi was primarily
> concerned about the specific page in front of him...

What you seem to be saying is that the Rambam, who presents halakhah
in such atomized fashion, is the one who pasqened from a Connectionist
knowledge of the whole.

Whereas the Tur and SA, who use a structure based on the 4 Sedarim of
Talmud Bavli are keeping topics isolated?

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Zion will be redeemed through justice,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   and her returnees, through righteousness.
Author: Widen Your Tent
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

On Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 05:51:24AM +0300, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote:
> When we studied The Rambam's Sefer Hamitzvot and Hilchot Yesodei Hatora we
> found that one of the first mitzvot was yirat shamayim which is often
> translated as fear of HKBH but we found it was better translated as a awe
> of HKBH.

I think the whole awe / fear / both discussion is flawed.

If we understand the system from within itself, "yir'ah" has to be a single
concept.

Take the territory of middos and draw different borders. Yir'ah is a
region of emotional space that straddles the ones called "awe" and
"fear". It isn't "both", like there are two ideas it could mean either
of, or the combination of. It's a single concept in-and-of-itself.

So let's look for that single concept. One possibility:

Awe and fear both come from facing something or Someone greater than
ourselves. How that confrontation feels depends on whether your perceive
a threat or a risk. But that's pachad or eimah as a consequence of yir'ah.

I wrote about it at such length, the blog post ended up a two-parter:
https://aspaqlaria.aishdas.org/2012/11/15/awe-and-fear - in which I compare
   middah words to different cultures' color words. It is easier to see
   distinctions between colors that your language gives different names.
   How you divide the territory into words changes your list of subjective
   experiences.
https://aspaqlaria.aishdas.org/2012/11/26/the-country-of-yirah - more on
   applying that idea to yir'ah, pachad, eimah...

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Zion will be redeemed through justice,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   and her returnees, through righteousness.
Author: Widen Your Tent
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

.
I'm not really sure whether to put this in Avodah or Areivim. Some may view
my question as sociological, in which case Areivim might be more
appropriate. But this might be a case where we (whoever "we" are) pasken
like different poskim than we did in the past, which is Avodah territory.

It seems that in today's world, it is accepted that tzitzis can be of any
color, so there is no downside to wearing the newfangled techelet tzitzis,
even if one questions whether this is really the genuine stuff.
Unfortunately, I am unable to provide a source for this, but it is what
I've heard many times in recent years. If others can document this, it
would be appreciated.

My problem is that I have clear memories from the 1970s and 80s to the
contrary. Back then, if one would ask why no one wore the techeles of the
Radziner Rebbe or of Rav Herzog, the answer was that any color other than
genuine techeles would make one's tzitzis passul; therefore one cannot wear
techeles unless he is *sure* that it is really techeles, which is
impossible until Moshiach restores the mesorah.

To those of you who are old enough to remember from before the modern
techeles, what are your memories about the rejection of the old techeles?
Why didn't people wear it anyway, based on "it couldn't hurt"? My memory
suggests that the poskim back then held differently than today's, but maybe
there are other reasons. I have some guesses, but first I'd like to hear
from other people's memories.

Akiva Miller
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From

https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/5228


Although at first glance from a preliminary reading of Rabbinic literature
on the topic, showering seems to be black-on-white prohibited, yet, from
the works of many contemporary authorities it seems a better question would
be if there is a hetternot to take at least some sort of shower during the
Nine Days!


First of all, it must be noted that with the vast majority of world Jewry
living in the Northern Hemisphere, the Nine Days (not so conveniently)
falls out during the hottest part of year, during the blazing summer. When
someone is asking his rabbi for a halachic dispensation to take a shower,
he is not merely asking a theoretical question. It is usually someone
sweating heavily, caked in perspiration and often afflicted from
odoriferous emanations. This is especially germane this summer, with the
mercury in Yerushalayim already hovering over 100?F (38?C) in June!

See the above URL for much more.

Professor Yitzchok Levine
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On Fri, Jul 21, 2023 at 08:43:51AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> It seems that in today's world, it is accepted that tzitzis can be of any
> color, so there is no downside to wearing the newfangled techelet tzitzis,
> even if one questions whether this is really the genuine stuff.

To be up front: I was an early adopter. My father learned Tues nights
with RHS for many years, starting with the end of RYBS's shiur in Moriah.
RHS bought his first set within days of Amutat Ptil Tekhelet going into
production, and my father soon followed. Paying me for tying his sets
by providing me.

Yes, I think that safeiq deOraisa lehachmir is sufficient argument to
wear tekheiles. As long as you and your poseiq feel that the evidence in
favor of dye-banded murex, cuttlefish, or whatever, rises to the level of
"safeiq".

Furthermore, while the mishnah (Menachos 4:1) says that "tekheiles einah
me'aqeves es halavan" and vice-versa, the Chinukh (#386) says this doesn't
work when tekheiles is available.

(I am guessing the Chinukh would limit lavan einah me'aqeves es hatekheiles
to cases where the tzitzis were made already but the white broke. Since
I cannot think of another case. One can get tekheiles strings, but not
any normal ones?)

Second, the Baal haMaor (Rif Shabbos 11b) reads the gemara as concluding
like Rebbe (Menachos 32b) against that mishnah, requiring both. And Briskers
don't wear tzitzis outside an eruv (and they don't hold of community eiruvin)
in case of the BhM's shitah.

And third, it would be a bitul asei, even if your tzitzis are still kosher.

> My problem is that I have clear memories from the 1970s and 80s to the
> contrary. Back then, if one would ask why no one wore the techeles of the
> Radziner Rebbe or of Rav Herzog, the answer was that any color other than
> genuine techeles would make one's tzitzis passul; therefore one cannot wear
> techeles unless he is *sure* that it is really techeles, which is
> impossible until Moshiach restores the mesorah.

I think this is a misunderstnding.

There is a machloqes where the Rambam says that the "lavan" strings
ought to be the color of the beged, whereas Tosafos say they ought to be
literally white. This is why most qehillos have the minhag of making white
begatim -- it avoids the machloqes. Notably, except for Teiman -- kedarkam
beqodesh, they simply follow the Rambam. And a shamla is typically black,
and I recall esrog sellers with colored arba kanfos and matching strings.

Notice, though, I said "the 'lavan' strings OUGHT to be", not "must be".
Hiddur territory.

Rava bar Chama doesn't understand why strings dyed with qaleh ilan
(indigo) would be pasul -- can't they count as lavan? And from there
the CI (OC 3:25) concludes that indeed, any color is kosher. And
for the strings that should have been tekheiles -- it's not even a
preference issue!

Still there is a gezeira against wearing qaleh ilan specifically. So the
last question would be whether wearing the wrong blue dye thinking it's
tekheiles wouldn't run foul of that issur.

The wording in the gemara (BM 61b) is against someone who "hangs
qaleh ilan on his garment and says it's tekheiles", warning you
that Hashem Knows. It seems the condemnation is specifically about on
misrepresentation. The buyer who thinks they got tekheiles and won't know
otherwise for months or years when their fake starts fading. Or maybe the
person who fools themselves into thinking the cheap stuff is good enough,
or will fool his neighbors, so why bother doing it right? Someone who
is up front about what their wearing, and isn't consciously fooling
themselves or others wouldn't fit the gemara's depiction.

And there is always the Tif'eres Yisra'el's take on the Rambam. This is
all theoretical, since the one acharon who I know of taking the Rambam
this way continues by saying that we hold like Rashi anyway.

But if you look at the Rambam's description of wearing tzitzis with
tekheiles, the first halakhah simply says you wear a colorfast blue
string. The second halakhah asks about the logistics, and that's where
we first read about a chilazon. So, the TY concludes that according
to the Rambam, any sufficiently colorfast dye of the right hue would
be tekheiles. Just that logistically, they only knew how to make one
out of a chilazon. So, add the right modern binding agents to indigo,
don't lie about it, and them maybe even qaleh ilah could be turned into
kosher tekheiles according to the Rambam.

And so murex tekheiles too.

But really, I think more the deceit thing. Judging from BM, the gezeira
was to prevent people misrepresenting their product. And not against using
blue dye for any other reason, such as trying to fulfil a safeiq deOraisa.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Zion will be redeemed through justice,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   and her returnees, through righteousness.
Author: Widen Your Tent
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF


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