Avodah Mailing List

Volume 41: Number 53

Tue, 18 Jul 2023

• 1. Re: Kli sheini (Marty Bluke)
• 2. Kamtza BaKamtza - Has anyone seen Meforshim who comment on this perspective? (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 3. Re: Kli sheini (Micha Berger)
• 4. Keli Sheni (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 5. (no subject) (Joel Rich)

For a very interesting take on kli sheini see the Ohr Sameach hilchos
shabbos chapter 9 Halacha 2.
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R Micha posted re The Rabbis placating Agrippa - You ARE our brother, Sota
41
that the medrash identifies R Zekhariah ben Avqulus who the gemara (Gittin
55b) identifies as the one responsible for preventing the blemished animal
to be offered on the Mizbeiach.

and also identifies him or more accurately his quality of misplaced modesty
- Anvanuso shel R Zekhariah be Avqulus as being the foundation for the
disaster
    hecherivah es beiteinu
    vesaraf es Heikhaleinu
    vehiglisanu meiArtzeinu.

Now although R Micha points out that bBlame is CLEARLY laid at the
leadership's feet,
I am asking that it seems not to be pointed to their cruelty and
indifference at the party
but to their internal deliberations about Halacha
and pardon me for saying this,
but this seems to be misplaced and a diversion from the essence of the real
issue

R Micha suggests that those who refuse their duty as leaders
will follow black letter law, be machmir improperly
and not have the fortitude to rely on his own seikhel.

again perhaps this is true
but it still fails to be attentive to their insensitivity, their
indifference
and quite likely their jaundiced perspective of their duties and
relationship with HKBH and with the people
they seem to have fallen into the trap of believing that not crossing the
rich a powerful was the best way to lead the community
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On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 02:48:41PM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
> For a very interesting take on kli sheini see the Ohr Sameach hilchos
> shabbos chapter 9 Halacha 2.

It is very interesting how R Meir Simchah haKohein links keli sheini to
gerama, garmi, koach sheini, etc...

But it only addresses hilkhos Shabbos.

It doesn't explain why a keli that someone poured boiling meat stew into
wouldn't become a fleishig pot.

And since the gemara and rishonim make arguments about one from the other,
I would expect the definiition and motivation for keli sheini to be the
same for both hilkhos Shabbos and taaroves.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

PS: I have familial reasons to be biased in favor of anything the OS
writes, but this doesn't work for me. (From wiki: "Both his son in law
and daughter died young and are buried in Warsaw. As a result of this, one
of his most prominent students and a close friend, Rabbi Yisrael Avraham
Abba Krieger, committed to carrying on his legacy." My greatgrandfather;
my mother's maiden name is Krieger. My ggf actually spent much of his
adolecence in the OS's home.)

-- 
Micha Berger                 In the days of our sages, man didn't sin unless
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   he was overcome with a spirit of foolishness.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Today, we don't do a mitzvah unless we receive
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    a spirit of purity.      - Rav Yisrael Salanter

Tosafos AZara explain that immersing a small bucket into a large cauldron
of boiling water
cannot be used to Kasher

Now the usual consideration that the walls of the KSh cool the contents
within does not apply in this case - the entire bucket has been immersed
and heated in the boiling cauldron
keep that in mind when considering if the ladle used to serve chicken soup
or Cholent is a KSh.

It seems that Tos are saying that the contents of a pot, if mainly water
gets heated to 100C no matter how hot the fire is
more heat just makes it boil more
to get it hotter you must use a pressure cooker
if there is Shmaltz etc. that may get a little hotter than 100C

The walls of a KRi however, they get as hot as the fire
maybe 350C
so when you take the KRi off the fire it continues to boil

Whereas the KSh
even when immersed in the boiling cauldron
is not hotter than the contents of the pot 100C - 120C

Best,

Meir G. Rabi

0423 207 837
+61 423 207 837
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In a recent shiur R H Schachter mentioned that one of the reasons for the
attempted restart of smicha in tzfat was in order to be able to give malkot
(and associated kapara) to those who submitted to christianity. He then
mentioned that those rabbis assumed a court of smuchim could do this even
without hatraa having being given to the sinners. Any guesses as to why
they thought so?

She-nir?eh et nehamat Yerushalayim u-binyanah bi-mherah ve-yamenu

Joel Rich
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