Avodah Mailing List

Volume 41: Number 51

Sun, 09 Jul 2023

• 1. Too Much of a Good Thing? (Joseph Kaplan)
• 2. Questions about Bilaam (Marty Bluke)
• 3. psak (Eli Turkel)
• 4. Re: Rules of Psak (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Rules of Psak (Eli Turkel)
• 6. Re: codes and organization: (Danny Schoemann)

You buried the lead. ?

? what is the basis for this practice [of a gabbai asking a prospective oleh at Shabbat mincha whether he had an aliyah in the morning](other than
maximizing aliya distributions)?

Joseph

Sent from my iPhone
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Bilaam was a Navi who chazal say was as great in nevua as Moshe Rabenu. If
so, how was he such a rasha? Why did he want to curse hashems nation, the
Jewish people? Why did he think he would succeed?
The Gemara says that Bilaam knew the exact moment that hashem got angry
every day and he planned on cursing Bnei Yisrael at that exact moment. The
Gemara comments that his strategy would have worked except that during that
time hashem didn?t get angry. Why did hashem not get angry? Why couldn?t
hashem get angry and still not curse Bnei Yisrael?
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<<I was wondering if you have any thoughts on why the mechaber said he was
going to give psak based on the 2 of 3 rulel(which in my mind was a huge
chiddush that I was never sure of the basis for) but it seems to me if one
were actually to read his work without knowing that algorithm, that one
would ever come up with it given all the alternative opinions he quotes,
etc. Wondering if you have any thoughts on that. >>

As has been pointed out the Mechaber does not consistently follow this rule
and there are
exceptions, As such it would seem that if the rule was not given explicitly
there would be no way to derive it from the work itself.
Yes, people have objected to the general idea of choosing 2 out of  3 when
the Rambam is not completely independent of the Rif. Also, why choose the
Rif more than Rashba or other teshuvot

-- 
Eli Turkel
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The rule the BY gives for the SA has numerous exceptions, but it shouldn't
blind us to the fact that is does hold more often than not. Journal articles
like focusing on the exceptions, that "common knowledge" is mistaken. But
repeating the exceptions often shouldn't cause us to overestimate their
percentage.

Other factors:

And then there are cases where the majority may only be implicit. For
example, a case where only one of the 3 speak up on this topic, but the
BY may have felt that the other two say something elsewhere that implies
they disagree.

Maybe a commonly accepted ruling (mimeticism) can raise to the level where
he has to make an exception in his textual rule. So that he didn't consider
this a violation of his rule, but a need to violate textualism altogether.


On Thu, Jul 06, 2023 at 11:21:31AM +0300, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> Yes, people have objected to the general idea of choosing 2 out of  3 when
> the Rambam is not completely independent of the Rif. Also, why choose the
> Rif more than Rashba or other teshuvot

There were four major codes of any sort when the Mechbeir started:
    - Rif
    - Rambam
    - Pisqei haRosh
    - Tur

So it would seem that the Rosh and Tur were deemed too close, being not
just same mesorah but father and son who very often quotes him. But the
Rambam was not considered too often an echo of his father-and-rebbe's
rebbbe's rebbe.

It could just be the majority of independent codes. For a meaning of
"independent" that is less demanding than RET's.

And that would explain why peirushim like Rashi or Tosafos or sifrei shu"t
like the Riva's aren't in the rule. And are only used when the rule fails.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Worrying is like a rocking chair:
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   it gives you something to do for a while,
Author: Widen Your Tent      but in the end it gets you nowhere.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

I don't disagree with Micha.   My point was only that given the exceptions
I don't think we could have guessed the rule of R Karo had not stated it
explicitly

On Thu, Jul 6, 2023, 9:35 PM Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> The rule the BY gives for the SA has numerous exceptions, but it shouldn't
> blind us to the fact that is does hold more often than not. Journal
> articles
> like focusing on the exceptions, that "common knowledge" is mistaken. But
> repeating the exceptions often shouldn't cause us to overestimate their
> percentage.
>
> Other factors:
>
> And then there are cases where the majority may only be implicit. For
> example, a case where only one of the 3 speak up on this topic, but the
> BY may have felt that the other two say something elsewhere that implies
> they disagree.
>
> Maybe a commonly accepted ruling (mimeticism) can raise to the level where
> he has to make an exception in his textual rule. So that he didn't consider
> this a violation of his rule, but a need to violate textualism altogether.
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 06, 2023 at 11:21:31AM +0300, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
> > Yes, people have objected to the general idea of choosing 2 out of  3
> when
> > the Rambam is not completely independent of the Rif. Also, why choose the
> > Rif more than Rashba or other teshuvot
>
> There were four major codes of any sort when the Mechbeir started:
>     - Rif
>     - Rambam
>     - Pisqei haRosh
>     - Tur
>
> So it would seem that the Rosh and Tur were deemed too close, being not
> just same mesorah but father and son who very often quotes him. But the
> Rambam was not considered too often an echo of his father-and-rebbe's
> rebbbe's rebbe.
>
> It could just be the majority of independent codes. For a meaning of
> "independent" that is less demanding than RET's.
>
> And that would explain why peirushim like Rashi or Tosafos or sifrei shu"t
> like the Riva's aren't in the rule. And are only used when the rule fails.
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>
> --
> Micha Berger                 Worrying is like a rocking chair:
> http://www.aishdas.org/asp   it gives you something to do for a while,
> Author: Widen Your Tent      but in the end it gets you nowhere.
> - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF
>
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R' Joel Rich mentioned, in passing, I think, that
> I'm sure the Tur was also aware of all the TSBP but I wonder if it's in any
> way similar to what some commentators think that Rashi was primarily
> concerned about the specific page in front of him, versus Tosfot who were
> concerned about coherence of the entire corpus of TSBP.

Interestingly enough, (based on learning parts of the Tur with BY in
OC), the BY sometimes paskens based on a Rashi, other times he
dismisses Rashi, as being "a commentator and not a Posek".

- Danny


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