Avodah Mailing List

Volume 41: Number 37

Mon, 15 May 2023

• 1. Ashkenazic Pronunciation (Prof. L. Levine)
• 2. lo taamod? (Joel Rich)
• 3. Re: Ashkenazic Pronunciation (Meir Shinnar)
• 4. Re: Ashkenazic Pronounciation (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Ashkenazic Pronounciation (Ben Bradley)
• 6. Re: Ashkenazic Pronounciation (allan.en...@gmail.com)
• 7. Re: Ashkenazic Pronounciation (Micha Berger)

Recently, both R. Micha Berger and R. Meir Shinnar have posted on this topic.  I would like to add the following:

When I lived in Elizabeth, NJ (1968 - 1974) Rav P. M. Teitz stopped someone
who was davening for the Amud using Israeli pronunciation and said, "You
can pronounce any word you want with Israeli pronunciation. However, you
must pronounce HaShem's name with Ashkenaz pronunciation."

Rabbi Dr. Joel Rosenschein, who started Petach, told me that when he lived
in Boro Park he davened at a minyan in which the Baal Kriah used Israeli
pronunciation. When Rav Moshe Feinstein was asked about this, he said that
either the Baal Kriah had to use Ashkenaz pronunciation or stop leining.

Professor Yitzchok Levine
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The most recent Headlines podcast began with reports of two halachic
authorities who said that even if the person on their deathbed said not
to use their body for life-saving transplants, the doctor was allowed
to ignore them. The only reason not to do so would be because they would
lose their medical license

[I found the podcast at <https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-ydhfj-13ea3a2>
-micha]

A few initial questions popped into my mind.

The first is why say allowed and not required? If it's life-saving
wouldn't lo taamod require the doctor to do so?

The second was assuming there are local civil laws against ignoring,
even if nobody would find out about transplants, would the doctor be
allowed to violate them? (I assume this may turn on how broad a scope
we give dina dmalchuta)

Perhaps more importantly, I wonder about how the issue of chillul hashem
is taken into account and how our desire to have others respect our laws
would trade-off against not granting them the same courtesy?

Thoughts?

KT
Joel Rich

Prof. Levine?s post actually confirms my position.

RMB was arguing not merely that an Israeli pronunciation (?abazit?) should
not be allowed in an Ashekenazic Shul, but that for certain thinks ,he
himself is not yotze.

The two poskim involved gave a psak that the abazit pronunciation was not
acceptable in that Shul.  It is not at all clear that they would have
accepted a sefardi or a teimani pronunciation either for that Shul. 
However, the psak given was not that the person had to change or he
wouldn?t be yotze himself in ravening  - but that the pronounciation was
not acceptable for that Ashkenazi Shul?.

That issue of different minhagim in a Shul is a complex one- and most shuls
are far more tolerant of different minhagim within the same Shul.  In
Israel there  are shuls where the nusach is that of whoever is ba?al
tefilla.  Even in America, far more shuls are tolerant, for example, of
people in the same minyan both putting on tefillin and not putting on
tefillin during chol hamoed.
One corrects for errors in leining (and ? davening) which change meaning - and a different pronounciation may lead to misunderstanding.  



Meir Shinnar


> On May 14, 2023, at 8:39 AM, Prof. L. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu> wrote:
> 
> Recently, both R. Micha Berger and R. Meir Shinnar have posted on this topic.  I would like to add the following:
> 
> When I lived in Elizabeth, NJ (1968 - 1974) Rav P. M. Teitz stopped
> someone who was davening for the Amud using Israeli pronunciation and
> said, "You can pronounce any word you want with Israeli pronunciation.
> However, you must pronounce HaShem's name with Ashkenaz
> pronunciation."
> 
> Rabbi Dr. Joel Rosenschein, who started Petach, told me that when he
> lived in Boro Park he davened at a minyan in which the Baal Kriah used
> Israeli pronunciation. When Rav Moshe Feinstein was asked about this,
> he said that either the Baal Kriah had to use Ashkenaz pronunciation
> or stop leining.
> 
> Professor Yitzchok Levine

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On Thu, May 11, 2023 at 08:48:30PM -0400, Meir Shinnar via Avodah wrote:
> Does the questionable original lineage matter? If so, you should be
> arguing that (to cite an example from RSM's article you cite) you should
> be objecting to yeshivish Hebrew too

I am saying that motive matters.

I like the way this conversation forced me to frame how I percieve a
"real" minhag: It has to be the natural expression of a community in
pursuit of avodas Hashem.

The Yeshivish evollution of the Poilisher accent would qualify.

The Hebraists' invention of a simplified and stylized Mughrabi accent
does not.

Another example that I brought up, before articulating that idea of what
a minhag are the current incarnations of Nusach Ashkenaz (including its
Chassidic offshoots). They all, except perhaps for the Eizor Eliyahu
version of Nusach haGra, are rife with Haskalisher hyper-corrections.

For example: Is there a pause after "umorid hageshem" to warrant turning
the word to "hagashem"? The question doesn't begin in original Ashkenaz,
where Shemoneh Esrei was much more consistently in Leshon Chazal, and
therefore the word would be "hageshem" regardless. (And indeed this is
what one consistently finds in the manuscripts.)

And so, it is kind of tangential whether Rashi's Hebrew had a separate
qamatz sound or not. (Although I would want to know who in Ashkenaz
discovered a sound so close to the Teimani qamatz, as many of us do.)
Or whether he had a cholam, a choilam, a choelem (which is also common
in much of Teiman), a chaulam.... Because I am not insisting havarah
be static. Just that change be an internal evolution among community
of Shomerei Torah uMitzvah, not someone else's invention.

So let's look at minhagim like milchigs on Shavuos or Purim costumes.
Both seem to have non-Jewish origins. The first communities to make
a point of having milchigs on Shavuos were among non-Jews that had a
dairy festival (Wittesmontag) around the same time of year. The new grass
came in, spring is calving time, so the milk is of a better quality and
more abundant, and a source of joy. And Purim costumes come from Italy,
where Carnival is celebrated right before Lent with costumes. Also hard
to say is coincidental.

And I think that had things stayed that way, just practices we picked up,
they wouldn't have become True Minhagim. (True Scottsmen?) Any more than,
say, wearing a tie on Shabbos. But we absorbed them via rabbis who
attached meaning in various ways.

But I find it hard to argue we similarly "absorbed" Havarah Yisraelit,
finding lessons to take from its idiosyncracies.

The rest of your post doesn't reflect the distinction I am making, but
rebutting other potential distinctions.

> It is not as if they invented new, unheard of sounds for either
> consonants or vowels. They combined aspects of both sefardic and
> ashkenazic pronunciations.

Unfortunately, in a least-common-denominator way. All of the ambiguity
of the Ashkenazi alef and ayin, with all the ambiguity of the Sepharadi
tzeirei and segol. (To avoid your comment about qamatz for the moment.)

> I would add that the article by RSM cites RYE Henkin zt"l. In
> contradistinction to RSM's position on the validity of all three major
> traditions, Rav Henkin holds that the failure of Ashkenaz to distinguish
> some consonants means it is objectively wrong, and that one SHOULD change
> pronunciation from Ashkenazic to Sephardi pronunciation of consonants..

Because "minhag oqeir halakhah" doesn't apply in most cases. That doesn't
mean he doesn't believe it's a matter of halakhah.

And I believe it's only in the two cases I mentioned RSM convinced the
teenager I once was to change: alef vs ayin and ches vs khaf. Both of
which are singled out in Hil' Qerias Shema.

> So what is current Israeli pronunciation -- it is standard sefardic
> pronunciation -- except for lack of a separate het or ayin..

And aspiration, leaving dalet and dhalet as well as tav and thav
aambiguous. And an Ashkenazi veis and vav, both the same sound, instead
of bheis and waw.

This is why I called it more Mughrabi than "standard Sepharadic", but
that too is only partial. It's a few changes that add ambiuity not R
Henkin's goal of restoring distinctions we've lost.

But again, this is tangential if we are thinking in terms of halakahah
vs minhag vs picked-up practices.

On Sun, May 14, 2023 at 02:44:25PM -0400, Meir Shinnar wrote:                   
> RMB was arguing not merely that an Israeli pronunciation ("abazit")
> should not be allowed in an Ashekenazic Shul, but that for certain thinks,
> he himself is not yotze.

I actually made a much smaller claim than that.

First, I noted that RAYKook only permitted Havarah Yisraelit when
the alternative was inconsistency. So, he didn't treat it equal to
traditional havarot.

Then I pointed out cases where there are halachic issues to be
raised. Such as an Ashkenazi pronouncing Sheim Adnus in a way that in our
ancestors' mouths would mean "my lords", with a patach-yud. I was not
suggesting the answer to those question. (Which appears to be the way you
understood me.) Just that it is, as I put it, "problematic".

Which makes me lean toward RAYK's position and having people avoid the
havarah if they can. I cannot say this was his motivation; his seems to
be more about the mechanics of minhag altogether. But I can see reasons
to avoid these questions.

Obviously saying Sheim Adnus with a patach-yud is far more of a
misstatement if one sometimes does use a different sound for qamatz.
So perhaps that would explain giving in for those who cannot consistently
be traditional.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 38th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   5 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Tifferes sheb'Yesod: How does reliability
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF         promote harmony in life and relationships?

'Can you find any source predating zionism about any issues of people changing pronounciation?'

There is good evidence that Rav Noson Adler, the Rebbe of the Chasam Sofer,
used Sephardi pronounciation. It is mentioned in a teshuva around the
beginning of Reform in Germany, when that was one of the few initial
changes they wanted to make circa 1820.
So we learned in R Yaakov Haber's Shabbos afternoon shiur last week.
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On Mon, 15 May 2023 at 18:12, Micha Berger via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

Then I pointed out cases where there are halachic issues to be
> raised. Such as an Ashkenazi pronouncing Sheim Adnus in a way that in our
> ancestors' mouths would mean "my lords", with a patach-yud. I was not
> suggesting the answer to those question. (Which appears to be the way you
> understood me.) Just that it is, as I put it, "problematic".
>

I have heard this concern mentioned many times, but I have never heard
anyone complain that the patach-for-segol substitution of much of Polish
Jewry would be just as problematic, for example in the first Beracha of the
Amidah - Elokei Avraham being pronounced as Elokay Avraham. This would be
an Ashkenazi pronouncing "the Lord of" in a way that in our ancestors'
mouths would mean "Avraham, my Lord" c"v.

Sometimes halachic objections are found for political reasons...
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On Mon, May 15, 2023 at 06:39:20PM +0100, allan.en...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Then I pointed out cases where there are halachic issues to be
> > raised. Such as an Ashkenazi pronouncing Sheim Adnus in a way that in our
> > ancestors' mouths would mean "my lords", with a patach-yud...

> I have heard this concern mentioned many times, but I have never heard
> anyone complain that the patach-for-segol substitution of much of Polish
> Jewry would be just as problematic, for example in the first Beracha of the
> Amidah - Elokei Avraham being pronounced as Elokay Avraham. This would be
> an Ashkenazi pronouncing "the Lord of" in a way that in our ancestors'
> mouths would mean "Avraham, my Lord" c"v.

Not really... Their anscestors pronounced tzeirei identically.

This is akin to a Sepharadi saying shaim adnus with something a Teimani,
not just us Ashkenazim, with a patach.

> Sometimes halachic objections are found for political reasons...

As, at times, are halachic defenses.

I am just defending my statement that I understood and appreciated R
Kook's position. Are you arguing that R Kook delegated Havarah Yisraelit
to a "only when you can't do it right" status because of his politics???

RAYK has a general pattern of defending minhag over innovation.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 39th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   5 weeks and 4 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Netzach sheb'Yesod: What is imposing about a
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                        reliable person?


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