Avodah Mailing List

Volume 41: Number 33

Sat, 29 Apr 2023

• 1. Re: The Wise Son vs the Wicked Son and the word "you" (Zvi Lampel)
• 2. Lying to Paro and the Egyptians (Brent Kaufman)
• 3. Re: The Wise Son vs the Wicked Son and the word ''you'' (Akiva Miller)
• 4. Re: The Wise Son vs the Wicked Son and the word ''you'' (Micha Berger)
• 5. Shower shiur (Joel Rich)
• 6. Re: Lying to Paro and the Egyptians (Joel C. Salomon)

>
>
> Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2023 23:06:51 -0500
> From: Brent Kaufman <cbkauf...@gmail.com>
>
> ZL: >>It doesn't read like that. He is
> >>belittling the idea of performing the avodah by asking "What is this to
> >>you?"
>
> I think you are reading the 'belittling' part into the question where it
> isn't there. ... The reason we know he's a rasha is only because the
> narrator
> tells us that he is upfront.
>
> Chaimbaruch Kaufman
>

 I agree. I meant that that is how the narrator is taking it. As I
mentioned, the pasuk in context is certainly not taking the question or its
framer as being offensive or confrontational.

Zvi Lampel

> ***********************
>
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I have never been able to find a reasonable answer to this basic question
about leaving Egypt. Why is it that HKBH tells BY to lie to the Egyptians
about "borrowing" their fancy kelim? There was never an intent to return
them, and BY had to even use sneaky tricks to find out where their
neighbors kept the kelim during makkos choshech.

Also, why did Moshe have to tell Paro that BY only wanted to leave for 3
days. It may have been worded in such a way that it wasn't necessarily a
lie, but that is just double-talk. We all know that is the implication, and
using word play doesn't excuse a lie. Why couldn't he just be straight with
Paro and tell him that it's time for us to leave so please let my people
go. We know that HKBH wanted Paro to refuse so that He could bring the 10
makkos upon Egypt, but why was it necessary to lie from the beginning?

Chaimbaruch Kaufman

-- 


*?Bill, strange things are afoot at the Circle-K.?-Theodore/Ted Logan, Esq.*
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.
R' Chaimbaruch Kaufman wrote:

> A number of years ago I offered this answer to the question:
> How do we know he's a rasha? The reason we know he's a rasha
> is only because the narrator tells us that he is. ...
> ... we don't get to darshen the words of others, let alone
> children's. People often word things imprecisely, even when
> trying to say something good. Only an author can tell you the
> nature of their character upfront.

Fortunately, the Author of those pesukim did give us a clue about the
nature of the speakers.
UNfortunately, the editor of the Haggada left out some critical words.

The quote from the Chacham comes from Devarim 6:20: "Your child will ask
you, 'What are the rituals, laws, and rules, that Hashem our G-d has
commanded you?'"

The quote from the Rasha comes from Shemos 12:26: "Your children will say
to you, 'What is this work to you?'"

When you wrote that "we don't get to darshen the words of others", I
imagine that you might be referring to Rashi (footnote 1) who points out
that one child referred to "our G-d", while the other excluded himself by
saying "to you". Or perhaps you're referring to Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach
(footnote 2) who contrasts one child's detailed question about halacha and
even invokes Hashem's Name, with the other one who disdains all such
"work". If so, your point is well taken; perhaps we should not be so
particular about the exact words chosen by these children.

And that is why I prefer the explanation of Chukas Hapesach (footnote 3),
who does NOT "darshen the words of" those children. Rather, he darshens the
words of the Torah, whose Author did indeed "tell [us] the nature of their
character upfront." The Chukas Hapesach tells us to look at the verbs which
were unfortunately omitted by the editor of the Haggada: The Chacham ASKED
his question respectfully and with genuine interest. The Rasha SAID his
piece; if it was a question at all, it was rhetorical, and he had no desire
for an answer. (Footnote 4)

Footnote 1: Cited by the ArtScroll Haggadah page 83
Footnote 2: Halichos Shlomo on Hilchos Pesach, page 261, lines 14-15
Footnote 3: Cited by the ArtScroll Haggadah page 85
Footnote 4: Halichos Shlomo on Hilchos Pesach, page 261 line 16

Akiva Miller

Shameless plug for my Haggada: Go to Lulu.com and search for "Achieving
Immortality"
.
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On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 06:30:59AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> Fortunately, the Author of those pesukim did give us a clue about the
> nature of the speakers.
> UNfortunately, the editor of the Haggada left out some critical words.
...
> The quote from the Rasha comes from Shemos 12:26: "Your children will say
> to you, 'What is this work to you?'"

R Riskin (1970s, speaking to us in MHS) took this idea in the opposite
direction.

Hashem's answer in Shemos 12:27 is "This is a zeach Pesach to Hashem,
Who spared [pasach] the homes of BY..." Nothing about haqheih as shinav or
"baaur zeh". So RSR posted the question as why the answer was so different
than in the pasuq?

And he suggests that the child asking the question in p' 26 isn't
the Rasha of the Haggadah. That child may have been OTD (as we'd say
nowadays), but there was a logical reason for it other than assuming
his rish'us. See p' 25. The child calls it "ha'aodah hazos" because the
parents perform their qorban as "ha'aodah hazos".

RSR suggested that these pesuqim happen shortly before or after
"venoshantem baaretz" (Dev' 4:25). The excitement and warmth have left
the Qorban Pesach and the Seder and they have become work (avodah in
that sense of the word). The son naturally asks why bother, if they
aren't beinging you any closer to Hashem or to the ideal you? And that
son gets a Pesach story 101 answer. Which forces the parent to reengage
as well

Unlike the Haggadah, who uses this pasuq to describe the child who sees
it all as pointless work the parents do out of rish'us, a kid looking
for a reason to reject.

I was a HS kid, so I didn't think then to ask: But the intro is "keneged
arba banim diberah haTorah". Doesn't that imply that the Baal haHaggadah
is looking to explain the pasuqim as Hashem describes the four sons?


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 19th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   2 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Hod sheb'Tifferes: When does harmony promote
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                       withdrawal and submission?

Listening to a shiur in the shower ? recommended, permitted or forbidden?
Kt
Joel Rich
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On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 9:30?PM Brent Kaufman via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

> I have never been able to find a reasonable answer to this basic question
> about leaving Egypt. Why is it that HKBH tells BY to lie to the Egyptians
> about "borrowing" their fancy kelim? There was never an intent to return
> them, and BY had to even use sneaky tricks to find out where their
> neighbors kept the kelim during makkos choshech.
>

Rav Samson Raphael Hirsch distinguishes between sho?el me?eis, requesting,
and sho?el me?im, borrowing.  In this context, it?s the first term used.

?Chesky
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