Avodah Mailing List

Volume 41: Number 29

Mon, 10 Apr 2023

• 1. gedolim (Joel Rich)
• 2. first to minyan? (Joel Rich)
• 3. Ikar Chaser Min HaSippur (Akiva Miller)
• 4. Notes on the machlokos of Shammai and Hillel (Zvi Lampel)
• 5. red heifer (Joel Rich)

From Tzarich Iyun blog
1.When Gedolim speak and the public ignores them, the result is disgrace
for Torah and its greatest carriers. I assume that this is often a reason
for the silence of Gedolim. But still, in difficult times, when the entire
community is confused, we can only look to our Sages for advice, hoping to
fulfill the Torah instruction ?You shall do all you are instructed to do.?
To do so, we need instruction. We need to hear the voice of the Torah.

2.Although our own government does not necessarily provide justice,
honesty, goodness, and charity, and is certainly not adored by Charedi Jews
living under its rule, it still provides order, ensures compliance with
laws, and does much good besides (including massive support of Torah story).

3.In the meantime, our public cry must continue until we see the whole
community?fixers, politicians, and even talmidei chachamim and Rabbis
joining the cause and working to mend that which requires mending in our
public life.

============================================


There?s just so much to discuss on this, but I?ll limit myself to these 3
points
I imagine the response might be that if we were to speak out not only would
Torah be defamed by our being ignored but we would also have lost the
ability to make change where it is possible (halacha in practice imho is a
delicate dance between the leadership and the community ? see R? Henkin?s
hy?d taaroch lfanai shulchan on this element of the aruch hashulchan?s
psak. ) In the outside world personal issues would also be an issue in
positions of authority ? who do the gedolim turn to for help with human
blinds spots?


2.We live in a time of public extremes -in practice, either you are unserer
or not. Unfortunately, real life is more nuanced and this is one of the
prices paid.,


3.In the outside world you hear very similar calls in totalitarian states
(e.g. China, Iran) Perhaps it takes a supermajority of brave folks to bring
chang


KT
Joel Rich
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If one has a choice of being one of the first 10 to the minyan or putting
on taalit and tfillin in the entrance hallway of the building that has the
shul, which gets priority?
KT
Joel Rich
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.
At the Seder, I noticed that the Haggada's version of Sippur Yetzias
Mitzraim goes directly from Makas Bechoros to the miracles at the Yam Suf.
Why does it skip the events in Shemos 12:31-41?

The Haggada tells us Sippur Yetzias Mitzraim, and it goes in chronological
sequence: Terach and Avraham, Lavan and Yaakov, the famine and the slavery,
and it goes into detail about the ten makkos also. And then, we suddenly
learn about the many makkos which happened at the Yam Suf, without a single
word regarding the actual Exodus itself.

Yes, I'm quite aware that Dayenu mentions the Egyptian money which G-d gave
us on our way out. But that is more of a thankful song, and not really part
of The Story proper.

I also concede that the Rabban Gamliel section mentions how we rushed out
so quickly that the dough couldn't rise. But that too is not really part of
The Story proper, but more of a halachic addendum to the Story.

Why aren't these things mentioned in the chronological, detailed narration
of The Story?

The fact that we left Mitzraim also appears several times in the beginning
of Maggid, including in Avadim Hayinu and in the answers to the Four Sons.
But in my opinion, although those citations are adequate to fulfill the
bare minimum for the d'Oraisa of V'higadta L'vincha, they don't contribute
much to Sippur Yetzias Mitzraim.

Chazal want us to tell a Sippur, a Story. I don't think we need to dwell on
the definition of a story, but it seems to me that at some point, the
narrative needs to transition from telling us about everything that led up
to The Event, and finally tell us that The Event did in fact occur.

At the risk of entering into "Kol Hamarbeh Gorea" territory...

The author of the Haggada chose to build his version of The Story around
the Torah's version of it, as found in Parshas Bikkurim. He chose four of
those pesukim, and amplified them with supplementary material, phrase by
phrase. The last of those four pesukim begins with "Vayotziaynu Hashem
MiMitzrayim -- Hashem took us out of Mitzraim". It seems to me that this
would have been the perfect time to tell us about the actual Taking Out,
but instead, the Haggada backs up, and tells us about Makkas Bechoros and
the other nine makkos.

Does anyone besides me find all this incongruous? We read at length about
everything that led up to the Exodus, and we have an interesting debate
about counting the miracles after the Exodus, but the Exodus itself seems
to get short shrift.

I hope I've explained myself adequately. Any comments? advTHANKSance

Akiva Miller

Postscript: There is but one answer that came to my mind. One could argue
that the drama of the story is enhanced by leaving the main point unsaid.
(Is there a term for such a literary device?) Given that the actual Exodus
*IS* mentioned numerous times elsewhere in the Haggada (albeit in passing),
perhaps the author of the Haggada wanted us to pause here and insert a few
words of our own? "And then Paro finally gave up and sent us out!", or
something like that (which is exactly what I do at my Seder). If so, it
would be nice to see it in print somewhere.
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In each of the three halachic disputes between Shamai and Hillel themselves
(Ediyos 1:1-3)--as opposed to Beis Shamai  &Beis Hillel--(besides the
continuing dispute of the Zugos [Chagigah 16a]) Hillel is the machmir!

Shabbos 14b tells us there was also originally a fourth machlokes where
Hillel was meikel, but ultimately he conceded to Shamai's gezeyra!

Furthermore, in all three, the majority Chachamim disagreed with both!

And this brings to notice that just as the ''machlokes of Korach v-aidaso''
consisted of these two named against Moshe Rabeynu, the ''machlokes of
Shamai and Hillel'' consisted of the two named against the Chachamim.
Ediyos thereupon describes this as mentioning the words of Bris Shamai and
Bris Hillel as only le-batlan (in terms of the halacha), but to teach that
one should learn from these greats to concede to the majority (who
accurately retained the previously decided halacha--Tosefta as cited by
Raavad).

Apparently,  this should be taken into account in arriving at an
explanation of the adage (Avos 5:17) that only one of the two is considered
a machlokes l'sheim Shamayim that is asid le-hiskayeim.
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The gemara tells us that the red heifer can be redeemed if one finds
another one which is naah heimena (more pleasing?). Given that the red
heifer is not eaten and the requirements for it seems to be that it is
fully red and not used for any other purpose, how would one define a more
pleasing  one?
kt
joel rich
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