Avodah Mailing List

Volume 41: Number 25

Tue, 28 Mar 2023

• 1. Re: Why remove drops from Cup; Ought the cup be topped up? (Micha Berger)
• 2. Subject: Re: Why remove drops from Cup; Ought the cup be topped up? (Zvi Lampel)
• 3. Re: Why remove drops from Cup; Ought the cup be topped up? (Cantor Wolberg)
• 4. Subject: Re: Why remove drops from Cup; Ought the cup be topped up? (Zvi Lampel)
• 5. The Quinoa Controversy The halachos and minhagim of kitniyos (Prof. L. Levine)
• 6. Special Italian Haftarah for the ?Shabbat Kallah? (Prof. L. Levine)
• 7. spilt wine ten plagues - Chas VeShalom that HKBH Failed (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 8. And Another Thing - Wine Spilled Ten Plagues - HKBH Did Not Succeed (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 9. Postscript - Filling the Hallel Koss (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 10. birchot hashachar (Joel Rich)

On Thu, Mar 23, 2023 at 08:06:12PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> Thank you.  Note footnote 38, about the English translation of R Dovid
> Feinstein's hagada, and the original Hebrew.   As I wrote in this forum
> years ago, I believe the English translator misunderstood the Hebrew...

The footnote is clear about the possibility of a disconnect (the
transliteration at the end is mine):
    R. David Feinstein, The Kol Dodi Haggadah (Brooklyn, New York: Mesorah
    Publications in conjunction with Mesivta Tifereth Jerusalem, 1990),
    p. 106. There it is stated that the wine is removed "in consideration
    for the losses caused by the plagues." This appears in the Hebrew
    original (New York: Tiferet, 1970), p. 21, as the somewhat more
    ambiguous "nohagim sheshofekhim le'ibud hamakkos."

In the past, we asked RZL, the translator, who is a member. But when he
checked with RDF, RDF himself couldn't recall which was intended. (The
footnote's "the somewhat more ambiguous" is well-founded.) In any case,
RDF's own uncertainty means that he agrees with the idea that spilling
the wine can commemorate the suffering of the Egyptians.

However, whatever RDF's own position, we cannot say it was "in order to"
commemorate. Any such linkage would be an after-the-fact insertion of
intent to an existing minhag. Just that RDF is among the later acharonim
who believe such linkage is a good idea.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 The meaning of life is to find your gift.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   The purpose of life
Author: Widen Your Tent      is to give it away.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                   - Pablo Picasso

RMB:

> My own pet peeve is when a speaker says "Chazal", "the posqim hold",
> "the rishonim say", "it is written in the heiliger sefarim", "the
> baalei mussar say". Often it hides a machloqes, or...


 This style is in fact followed by the sefarim of acharonim and rishonim
themselves. Ramban on Chumash, for example, often states that Rabbanim say
xyz, where it's just one shittah among others that differ. And sometimes he
goes on to disagree, offering a variant explanation without noting that
it's the shittah of the bar plugta! . And yes, it bothers me.

Zvi Lampel
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I see an interesting symbolism here. First we remove the 16 drops of wine
from the Kos and then according to some, we replace the wine that was
spilled. What I see here is that when something is lost or taken away, the
optimist is able to replace what was lost. Obviously, the actual wine that
was removed cannot be added but new wine is replaced. So when we experience
a loss, we replace it with something to ease the original loss. Another way
of putting it, we replace a negative by putting back a positive.

>
>
> O? Thu, 23 Mar 2023 Zev Sero wrote:
> On 23/3/23 13:34, Ari Zivotofsky via Avodah wrote:
> >
> > here is an excellent article on this topic (not by me)
> > https://hakirah.org/Vol19Ron.pdf
>
> Thank you.  Note footnote 38, about the English translation of R Dovid
> Feinstein's hagada, and the original Hebrew.   As I wrote in this forum
> years ago, I believe the English translator misunderstood the Hebrew,
> which is simply an instruction on what to do with the spilled wine.  It
> is to be spilled out and destroyed, rather than retained and used.
>

And the translator, yours truly, stood corrected and notified Artscroll.
From this article, I see how I was influenced to make the original
translation.

Zvi Lampel
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Please click on

https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/pesach/quinoa%20controversy.pdf

From this article

Quinoa has been popular in South America for many years but has recently
become popular in America as well. This ?super grain of the future? is not
a true cereal grain, rather it is a seed from the ?goosefoot? family. It
has recently been debated whether quinoa may be eaten on Pesach or not. In
the following paragraphs we will review the halachos and minhagim of
kitniyos, and determine what the controversy over quinoa is about.

See the article for much more.

Professor Yitzchok Levine


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From
https://seforimblog.com/2023/03/special-italian-haftarah-for-the-shabbat-kallah

Many communities in Europe and beyond had the practice of reciting a
special haftarah from Isaiah 61 -- 62 in honor of a groom on the Shabbat
following the wedding.[2] Ashkenazi communities began the haftarah with
61:10 and read until 63:9,[3] which is also the 7th of the haftarot of
consolation, which is which was read in most communities on the Sabbath
before Rosh Hashanah, and in some others on the Shabbat between Yom
Kippur and Sukkot in the event that there was one in a given year.

<Snip>

The practice in Italy was, and is, not to read special haftarot for the
entire three-week period before Tisha B'Av or on the seven Shabbatot
between Tisha B'Av and Rosh Hashanah.[5] Rather, a special haftarah is
read on the Sabbath before Tisha B'Av and haftarot of consolation are
read on the three remaining Sabbaths of the month of Av. The normal
haftarah for Pinhas, a rarity in most communities, is read in Italy
every year. Matot, Masei, Shoftim, Ki Tetze, Ki Tavo, and Nitzavim all
have their own haftarot, which are found in the Cairo Geniza, Siddur R'
Shelomo B'Rabbi Nattan,[6] and in the list of haftarot in the Seder
Tefillot of the Rambam.

See the above URL for more.

Professor Yitzchok Levine

R Zev S is not comfortable with a suggestion that HKBH failed
yes indeed  it a V harsh comment
BUT in this case is it not in fact the greatest PRAISE - that this is
indeed the GREATNESS of HKBH
that He grants FREE WILL and permits us to defy Him?

Indeed the very energy of muscle, of mind and of spirit, that is required
and utilised to defy HKBH
is in fact GIVEN by HKBH as we perpetrate our mutiny
Sham Ata Motzeh UnVeNuSoi

Of course HKBH could pull the plug
could reprogramme our hearts and minds
but is that the purpose of Creation?

Furthermore Reb Z's protests are Tul LeCha Mah ShaHeVeSa
a Rabbinic Mishnaic [Chullin Ch4] way of saying, you have shot yourself in
your own foot!

On the one hand R' Zev says HaShem NEVER INTENDED TO win over the
Egyptians, of ANYTHING
OK lets say that is the case
But then it is a little inconsistent to simultaneously suggest that
HKBH wanted the REST OF THE WORLD to learn THE LESSON

and what would that lesson be
not to toy with His Children?

So The ENTIRE WORLD can learn, SHOULD LEARN
But not the Egyptians?
and not the 80%?

And besides - the problem you wish to avoid Reb Z, is now EVEN MORE
PRONOUNCED
not only did HKBH fail with the Egyptians and the Yidden who perished
during Choshech
HKBH failed to persuade the WHOLE WORLD

Ot His success was short lived
Short circuited by Amalek who leaped into the boiling bathwater and was
scalded
but 'proved' that HKBH is not invincible
Amalek was the Roger Bannister of his generation

Certainly this cannot be an occasion to raise a full Koss and utter a full
throated Praise to Glorify HKBH Success?

As for the 80% about whom Reb Zev says - HKBH NEVER INTENDED to take them
out of Mitzrayim -
REALLY? were these UNDESIRABLES not capable of Teshuvah?

Were the Mitzriyim not capable of Teshuvah?

Was it not HKBH's failure when the Yidden made an Eigel
When Adam and Chava ...
When Avraham Avinu ...
When ... we fail to live up to the potential that HKBH has implanted within
us with our Neshama?


Best,

Meir G. Rabi

0423 207 837
+61 423 207 837
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Even the 20% - the creme de creme - refused to have the Beris Milah
They defied HKBH
Is that success?

Chazal describe that MRabbenu did not know what to do
and HKBH advised him not to worry "Proceed with your KPesach, she'll be
right"

The aroma of MRabbenu's KPesach drove them wild
and they were COERCED thereby to have their Beris

Thus the BLOODS plural
The blood of the KPesach and the blood of the Beris.


Best,

Meir G. Rabi

0423 207 837
+61 423 207 837
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So as we raise the Koss that is NOT FULL
to sing Hallel
We must think
Had we been in Mitzrayim
Would we have been amongst the 80%?
and even if amongst the 20%
would we have willingly jumped at the opportunity to circumcise ourselves?

So the message is - the Koss is not full
and in order to fill it we do not pour more from the bottle
but live our life in such a manner
that our life is full throated song of Hallel
celebrated with a full overflowing Koss

Best,

Meir G. Rabi

0423 207 837
+61 423 207 837
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If one wakes up before a lot, is it best to make all the birchot hashachar
except lasechvi and birchat hatora or to just make the birchot hatora and
learn until alot and then make all of the birchot hashachar


KT
Joel Rich
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