Avodah Mailing List

Volume 41: Number 22

Wed, 22 Mar 2023

• 1. The Sacred Shekel (Cantor Wolberg)
• 2. Re: The Sacred Shekel (Prof. L. Levine)
• 3. Re: The Sacred Shekel (Zev Sero)
• 4. Why remove drops from Cup; Ought the cup be topped up? (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 5. Re: Why remove drops from Cup; Ought the cup be topped up? (Zev Sero)
• 6. Gifted Wine (Continued) (Prof. L. Levine)
• 7. OU Kosher Halacha Yomis: (1) Grape Ingredients; (2) Gifted Wine (Prof. L. Levine)
• 8. "Chazal" being of more than one mind (Joel Rich)

I want to make clear that my original posting had dina d?malchusa dina in Hebrew which came across as a series of question marks.
What I meant to add was that in Jewish law we have shemita which all debts
are cancelled every seven years. That is even better than bankruptcy so I
don?t understand how it can be said that there is something wrong with it.

Zev Sero wrote on 3/17/2023

>Bankruptcy is not dishonest. It is a law that all modern governments
>have made, for a very good purpose, ("letakanat hamedina" which is one
>of the criteria the poskim use to determine what is a legitimate dina
>demalchusa), and effectively abolishing it among Jews would tend to
>undermine that purpose, so it's not necessarily a good standard even for
>midas chassidus.

From https://www.torahmusings.com/2019/11/bankruptcy-in-halacha/
Bankruptcy in Halacha

The second element of American Bankruptcy is ?fresh start,? which makes it
unnecessary to make payments (?discharge?) beyond those prescribed by the
bankruptcy court.  Talmudic Halacha does not recognize fresh start. If
someone originally lacks funds but acquires them later, he must pay past
debts using new assets.


See the above URL for more.


This last paragraph is exactly what Rav Schwab told the man who now wanted
to give a large donation to his yeshiva, namely, now that he has the money,
he has to pay those to whom he owed money.


Professor Yitzchok Levine







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On 20/3/23 16:58, Prof. L. Levine wrote:
> The second element of American Bankruptcy is ?fresh start,? which makes 
> it unnecessary to make payments (?discharge?) beyond those prescribed by 
> the bankruptcy court.? Talmudic Halacha does not recognize fresh start. 
> If someone originally lacks funds but acquires them later, he must pay 
> past debts using new assets.

Read the rest of the article.   Talmudic halacha is not necessarily the 
operative law in this case.  Dina Demalchusa is likely operative, and if 
so it is arguably (and I would so argue) not even midas chassidus to pay 
the discharged debts, unless there was a clear understanding between the 
parties that they would follow Dinei Yisrael and not Dina Demalchusa.


-- 
Zev Sero            ?Were we directed from Washington when to sow
z...@sero.name       and when to reap, we should soon want bread.?
                    ?Thomas Jefferson: Autobiography, 1821.

During Maggid:
Where is the source for removing a drop of blood whilst listing the plagues?
Why?
Is the Koss filled before being raised for its Berachah?

Best,

Meir G. Rabi

0423 207 837
+61 423 207 837
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On 20/3/23 21:10, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
> Where is the source for removing a drop of blood whilst listing the plagues?

The earliest written source is the Rokeach, who attributes it to Rabbi 
Eliezer Hagadol, which puts it in the 11th century.


> Why?

The Rokeach's own explanation is that it somehow symbolizes Hashem's 
16-sides sword.   But see the Alter Rebbe's siddur for a more accessible 
explanation, based on kabala but easily understood. Since it is not his 
way to give kavanos, it seems that this one is intended for all, shaveh 
lechol nefesh.

As I interpret it, the explanation is that wine is essentially a 
blessing, but contains an admixture of "anger and wrath", i.e. it has a 
potential for misuse and the opposite of blessing.  The cup represents 
Malchus, which is the faculty of expression, so the negative aspect of 
alcohol can ch"v also be expressed. How does one handle this? One uses 
the power of Binah to distinguish the bad from the good; as one recites 
the makkos one spills out all the negative side of the wine, into a 
broken vessel which symbolizes the Kelipa.  In other words, one must 
handle alcohol with intelligence, consciously rejecting the potential 
for anger, and choosing to concentrate only on the positive aspects. 
What is left over after this exercise is the pure "Wine that gladdens 
the heart of man", i.e. if one drinks intelligently one can be sure of a 
positive experience.



> Is the Koss filled before being raised for its Berachah?

In my experience, yes, it is.   And this makes sense to me, since a 
bracha should be on a full cup.   But I'm sure there are people who 
don't, and it would be easy to explain that too.  E.g., according to the 
interpretation I gave above, after having gone to all the effort of 
removing the anger from the wine, why would you add "unseparated" wine 
and thus symbolically adulterate it with fresh anger?

-- 
Zev Sero            ?Were we directed from Washington when to sow
z...@sero.name       and when to reap, we should soon want bread.?
                    ?Thomas Jefferson: Autobiography, 1821.

From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis


QUESTION: May I order a gift basket to be sent to my non-Jewish client that contains a bottle of non-kosher wine?


ANSWER: Shulchan Aruch (YD 123:1<https://www.sefaria.org/Shulchan_Arukh,_Yoreh_De'ah.123.1?lang=he-en&;utm_source=outorah.org&utm_medium=sefaria_linker>)
writes that stam yainom (wine that was made by a nochri) is forbidden. Not
only may we not drink such wine, but we are forbidden to derive any benefit
from it as well. Sending wine as a gift is considered a benefit because of
the good will that is generated. Even though most of the gift basket
consists of fruit and chocolate, which one may send, since there is
additional good will that comes from sending wine, one may not order this
type of basket.


Although the Rema disagrees with Shulchan Aruch and writes that in
situations of loss or great need one may benefit from stam yainom, in the
question at hand there is no special need to send your client a bottle of
non-kosher wine, and certainly there is no loss. Therefore, in this case,
Shulchan Aruch and Rema would both agree that this type of basket may not
be sent.


Professor Yitzchok Levine
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 From the OU Kosher Halacha Yomis


    QUESTION: I have seen OU certified products that list grape juice
    in the ingredients. How is this possible? If a nochri handles wine
    or grape juice, doesn't this make it forbidden?


    ANSWER: Wine and grape juice handled by a nochri are only forbidden
    if they were not previously mevushal (cooked). This is because Stam
    Yainom is prohibited because of the suspicion that the wine may have
    been used for idol worship. In the times of Chazal, only non-cooked
    wine was used to serve idols, and therefore the restriction of Stam
    Yainom was not enacted on cooked wine (yayin mevushal). Kosher
    mevushal grape juice may be handled in a non-Jewish factory like
    other ingredients. Of course, grape juice is a kosher sensitive
    ingredient. Factories that use kosher grape juice require extra
    hashgacha to make sure the grape juice arrives with the proper kosher
    seals that ensure its integrity, and that non-kosher grape juice is
    not used in its stead.

_________________________________________

 From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis


    QUESTION: I was given an expensive bottle of non-kosher wine by my
    boss as part of my end of year bonus. Can I sell it online?

    ANSWER: In this case, the halacha would depend on whether one is a
    Sefardi or an Ashkenazi.

    Yayin nesech, which is wine that was libated in the service of
    idolatry is assur b'hanoah (deriving benefit is prohibited). However,
    deriving benefit from stam yainom (wine which was left in the
    presence of a nochri without supervision), is a matter of dispute
    by the Rishonim.

    Rav Yosef Cairo rules in the Shulchan Aruch (YD 123:1
    <https://www.sefaria.org/Shulchan_Arukh,_Yoreh_De'ah.123.1>)
    that it is forbidden to derive benefit from stam yainom (non-kosher
    wine). Typically, manufactured wine today is in the category of stam
    yainom and not yayin nesech. Therefore, if the wine was given to a
    Sefardi who follows the ruling of Shulchan Aruch, he must dispose of
    the bottle. He would not be permitted to sell the bottle of wine,
    as the payment is a form of benefit. Furthermore, it may not be
    given to a nochri because the goodwill that is generated through
    giving a gift is also considered a benefit.

    However, Rema writes that in a situation of loss, such as if one
    needs to collect a debt and the borrower who is a nochri only has
    barrels of non-kosher wine, one may follow the more lenient opinion
    and accept the barrels as payment. The Jewish creditor may then sell
    the wine to a nochri. Ashkenazim follow this view. Similarly, in
    our case, since the employer is offering wine as a bonus, refusing
    the gift would be a loss of income. Therefore, one may accept the
    bottle of wine and sell it. However, Chochmas Adam (75:14) writes
    that one who is careful not to derive any benefit from stam yainom
    (even though strictly speaking it is permitted) will be blessed with
    success. Thus, there is reason to be machmir if he is able to do so.

Professor Yitzchok Levine

Comment to a magid shiur:
I've often said what you said at the beginning about "Chazal" being
of more than one mind on an issue (especially hashkafically), but that
generally seems to be the absolutely the last answer anybody wants to
give. Have you seen any sources discussing this in any detail?

KT
Joel Rich


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