Avodah Mailing List

Volume 41: Number 15

Sat, 25 Feb 2023

• 1. Sheker LHara The Boss who wants his workers support (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 2. Re: Sheker LHara The Boss who wants his workers support (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Sheker LHara The Boss who wants his workers support (Zev Sero)
• 4. Megillah Mysteries: The Eitz Chaim Enigma (Prof. L. Levine)
• 5. bet din but not a rav (Joel Rich)

R?MBerger posted -
an employee may honestly express support for his employer, because he is
not even indirectly implying that he can personally confirm the employer's
specific factual claims.

MRabi -
I fail to understand - we were not ever concerned about the FACTS
We are concerned about the METHOD employed to disclose the facts.
Surely one is entitled to believe one?s RY or Rebbe
But again referring to the ChCh - He INSISTS and you can verify this V
easily, it is critically important to make a legal contract when lending
money no matter how much you trust that person, EVEN YOUR REBBE.

R?MB adds -
Even saying he believes the employer is permitted bcs, that does not imply
that he has personal knowledge, so it's not a devar sheker.

MR -
I am unsure of what to respond.
To be mild one can only suspect that none of these comments have been run
past a Rov because the very basic violations outlined by the ChCh in his
intro is that making any comments whatsoever. Even when 100% accurate - if
they cause discomfort and certainly if they embarrass someone - are
prohibited.
Unless all conditions are met.
It is a sad day when a Torah discussion group appears to be trampling upon
these basics.

Please tell me I am mistaken and have misunderstood.

Besides, Is making such comments not adding fuel to the Machlokes?
So it is not a ToEles but a DISASTER

If the boss wants this type of support one must ask themselves WHY? Of what
value is it to him or her?
And if it is of some value as in swaying public opinion and ChV swaying the
Dayan?s opinion that is the most viscous and horrible thing that can be
done - trying someone in the court of Public Opinion when one party holds
the megaphone. Surely you cannot be serious that you see nothing wrong with
making such blatantly subversive statements.

R?MB adds -
It sounds a lot like "kalah naah vechasudah" -- because we can assume in
the chasan's eyes, she indeed is.

MR -
When one has ALREADY made a purchase and CANNOT reverse to salvage their
loss - that is when we sing KNVeChaSudah.
ABSOLUTELY not when the Shidduch is being suggested.
It is absolutely forbidden for someone who asks a knowledgeable person if
the car she intends to purchase is a ?good buy? to say anything but the
truth. And if it is a good friend such communications are LOSE LOSE bcs if
you advise not to buy what she has her heart set on, you will probably be
the nasty fellow; and if you do not then later, when the cars faults appear
you will also be blamed.
Od MeAt UsKaLuNi

Best,

Meir G. Rabi

0423 207 837
+61 423 207 837
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On Thu, Feb 23, 2023 at 04:42:28PM +1100, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
> It is absolutely forbidden for someone who asks a knowledgeable person if
> the car she intends to purchase is a 'good buy' to say anything but the
> truth. And if it is a good friend such communications are LOSE LOSE bcs if
> you advise not to buy what she has her heart set on, you will probably be
> the nasty fellow; and if you do not then later, when the cars faults appear
> you will also be blamed.

Deeming something a "good buy" can have a single objective answer. For
example, if the thing is in reality defective. But often it's subjective,
and therefore has multiple right answers.

Your mistake is making this an emes or sheqer issue, and thus sheqer is
geneivah, where that's explicitly not what I spoke about.

For example, I just replaced my refrigerator. The GE model was slightly
larger, but also more money than the Whirlpool. Reading reviews, each
tends to break in different ways, and different web sites disagree as
to which is more likely to last me longer.

This is like the kalah na'ah vechasudah (al pi Rashi) example I gave.
It's a matter of opinion. And NOT of lying. Reinforcing your boss's
opinion is just like reinforcing the chasan's -- it's the valid opinion
you're expected to express (by both the boss and the customer, FWIW),
not lying about the bride or the product.

This gets into the same question as pasqening differently than one's
rebbe. Sure, in the rare case that one's rebbe pasqens X and it's
obvious the din is Y, then one can't simply pasqen X. But neither is
the rebellious member of Sanhedrin isn't a zaqein mamarei if he pasqens
against the cot on a zil qeri bei rav issue. Real pesaq is where eilu
va'eilu, both are among the 49 reasons letaheir and 49 reasons letam'ei,
and it's a matter of which answer to back. Knowing one's rebbe decided
differently can change one's calculus about how to weigh the various
factors.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Like a bird, man can reach undreamed-of
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   heights as long as he works his wings.
Author: Widen Your Tent      But if he relaxes them for but one minute,
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    he plummets downward.   - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On 23/2/23 00:42, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
> 
> It is absolutely forbidden for someone who asks a knowledgeable person 
> if the car she intends to purchase is a ?good buy? to say anything but 
> the truth.

Yes, but what is the truth?   There is absolutely NO problem with saying 
(assuming it's true) that "I have not inspected the car, but if Ploni is 
selling it to you then you can buy it without hesitation; he is an 
expert mechanic and an honest person, and he would not sell you a lemon."

Likewise it is permitted for a well-known rav, who has never set foot in 
a restaurant and knows nothing about its kashrus, to provide it with a 
certificate over his signature saying "I am well acquainted with the rav 
who gives the hechsher here, and if he says you can eat here then you 
can eat here".  This is not a dvar sheker because you are not even 
implying that you have any personal knowledge of the restaurant's 
kashrus.  You're open that you have no such knowledge, but you trust 
that it is good because the rav hamachshir says so and you trust him.



-- 
Zev Sero            ?Were we directed from Washington when to sow
z...@sero.name       and when to reap, we should soon want bread.?
                    ?Thomas Jefferson: Autobiography, 1821.

From

https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/8309


Can you feel Purim just around the corner? Who isn?t eagerly anticipating
this annual Yom Tov extravaganza, featuring joyous dancing, Mishloach
Manos, colorful costumes, and of course, the Megillah reading? This
timeless scroll describes in detail the incredible turnabout when the
Jewish nation was saved from the scheming machinations of the wicked and
contemptible, if not downright genocidal and megalomaniacal, Haman, by the
self-sacrifice, quick thinking, and virtue of the noble and courageous
Queen Esther and the brave and righteous Mordechai.

Ashkenazic vs. Sefardic Megillos?

Anyone who takes a quick gander around the shul at Krias HaMegillah will
notice that there are many types and sizes of Megillos: ?HaMelech?
Megillos,[1]<https://ohr.edu/8309#_edn1> 11
line ?Gr?a? Megillos,[2]<https://ohr.edu/8309#_edn2> 21
line Megillos, 28 line Megillos, 42 line Megillos, 48 line
Megillos,[3]<https://ohr.edu/8309#_edn3> and
even perhaps Illuminated Megillos.[4]<https://ohr.edu/8309#_edn4>
However, there is one readily noticeable difference between most Ashkenazic
and Sefardic Megillos (aside for the actual ksav, of course):[5]<https://ohr.edu/8309#_edn5> an
Amud, the pole, stave, or Eitz Chaim, that is ubiquitously affixed at the
end of Sefardic Megillos, but noticeably absent from most Ashkenazic
Megillos.

See the above URL for much more on this topic.

Professor Yitzchok Levine
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In my Sunday Rambam chabura, we?re up to hilchot Sanhedrin. I?ve been
suggesting trying to deconstruct the halachot to understand the underlying
theories (of HKBH and chazal-eg predilection to not convict the innocent
and why). When the Rambam (Hilchot Sanhedrin 1:10) lists the role of the
120 people required in a town to have a Sanhedrin, I noted there is a bet
din but not a rav. It appeared to me that historically(certainly Talmudic
times) the leadership focus was on the be din and sometime/somewhere it
reversed. If so, any idea when and (to me more importantly) why?
KT
Joe; Rich
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