Avodah Mailing List

Volume 40: Number 77

Wed, 23 Nov 2022

• 1. Re: Why are women exempt from positive time-bound mitzvot? Is this a matter of identity? (Akiva Miller)
• 2. Definition of Chilul haSheim (Micha Berger)
• 3. RLakish & RElozor - Is less than honest thinking a deception OR What is honest thinking (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 4. Re: Women Davening (was: [Areivim] Eating Seudah Shleishis in Shul) (mi...@aishdas.org)
• 5. Morality Does Have an Evolutionary Advantage (Micha Berger)
• 6. Zilusa DeVei DIna (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 7. consistency in poseik? (Joel Rich)
• 8. Re: consistency in poseik? (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: consistency in poseik? (Joel Rich)

.
"Mitzvos Aseh Shehazman Grama" has so many exceptions and details, and
those exceptions and details have their own exceptions and details... A
long time ago, I gave up trying to find a systematic set of rules for which
mitzvos apply to women.

It's a "siman/sibah" thing, I think. There are too many exceptions for Zman
Grama to be the sibah why women are exempt, but it is a handy siman for
recognizing them.

Part of me feels guilty about this shoulder-shrugging, but maybe I can
compare it to the chevra's thus-far-failed attempts to find an algorithm
for how to pasken. Many (most?) of the rules are intuitive (read: learned
over decades of shimush) and even the experts are at a loss to articulate
them.

Akiva Miller
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We've discussed this before, but I stumbled on a new source...

AhS OC 602, being near the end of Hil' RH discusses kaparah. And se'ifim
16-17 discuss kaparah for chilul hasheim, and therefore RYME includes a
definition of chilul hasheim.
https://www.sefaria.org/Arukh_HaShulchan%2C_Orach_Chaim.602.16-17

    (16) Chilul hasheim - this is entirely according to the status of
    the person. The higher the level of the person, if he violates even
    a small matter, it is a chilul hasheim. And like this is what Rav
    says in Yuma (86a)... Or a talmid chakham who doesn't conduct trade
    with honesty, or doesn't speak to peaopl pleasantly. See there. From
    there we learned that however greater the person is -- their chilul
    hasheim is also greater.

    (17) And qal vachomer with chilul hasheim against the nations. Which
    is when a Jews dor any crime of something oppressive to a non-Jew,
    or in measures and weights -- this is a chilul Hashem (sic) that
    cannot be measured. On this Yechezqeil said (36:16)... As to say,
    like when a woman is a niddah -- no one knows about it but her
    husband. So too the nations. They didn't know of their [the Jews']
    tum'ah, only I Knew. And when you were exiled among the nation, and
    the nations know of your tum'ah -- how much greater is the chilul
    hasheim. For the say to Israel, "Are you not the Am Hashem, and how
    could you make yourselves tamei? It is also encumbent on you to know
    that you left your land, and therefore Jewry should not let itself
    rejoice like the nations. And it is encumbent on us to be meqadeish
    sheim shamayim and sheim Yisrael.

How it looks in front of the non-Jews is indeed a major chilul hasheim.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 The thought of happiness that comes from outside
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   the person, brings him sadness. But realizing
Author: Widen Your Tent      the value of one's will and the freedom brought
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    by uplifting its, brings great joy. - R' Kook

WADR If one hears a halachic analysis and ascribes it different value
pending who said it then IMHO that is a violation of HKBHs Torah and
a violation of ones own integrity.
unless it is a Shikul HaDaAs.

I assume this is the reason the Gemara Shavuos 31, when explaining the
meaning of MidVar Sheker Tirchak, describes ones Master, ones Rosh
Yeshivah, Rebbe or Rosh Kollel asking them to present themselves to Beis
Din AS THOUGH they are a second witness thereby, w/o offering testimony,
encouraging the recalcitrant litigant to own up and pay thus ensuring that
A] the defendant does not make a false oath B] the money gets returned to
its rightful owner.

The Gemara recognises that deference can readily affect not only the mind
of the student but also the Master, the Rosh Yeshivah, the Rebbe or the
Rosh Kollel who begins to believe that this is win win - everyone wins and
there is no foul. And does this defying litigant not deserve the *help*
being provided by a very slight deception? And are we not doing this sinner
a favour by helping him avoid sinning and its painful consequences?

I suspect the courage and integrity required to defy ones respected Master
is not a naturally acquired strength and wonder if our Yeshos and Kollels
might consider introducing situations LeChiDudah to whet their students
mettle - let the Rosh Yeshivah present a nosensical query every so often.
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On Nov 15, 2022, 5:21 PM -0500, Micha Berger via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>, wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 7:54am GMT, Rn Toby Katz wrote on Areivim:
> > Most women don't go to shul every day and many don't go on Shabbos,
> > either. Since the men are not home, it is likely that many women don't
> > get around to davening every day. Yet women are required to daven
> > every day (exactly what and how much is a subject of much dispute).
>
> The AhS discusses this (OC 89:1-...). Kedarko beqodesh when it's hard
> to understand where the common practice came from, he tries figuring
> out whose shitah (or combination of shitos) we must be holding like.
RYGB just gave a shiur on the subject. Didn't go the same lenient direction as the AhS.
http://rygb.blogspot.com/2022/11/halachos-of-davening-for-women-and-girls.html


Shetir'u baTov!
Micha
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A paper recently came out in PLOS Computational Biology which argues that
morality makes evolutionary sense.
https://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/journal.pcbi.1010429
More specifically, that "self-sacrificing cooperation" is a survival
strategy. Here's the "author summary" from that page, although the
formal abstract and the full paper are also available there.

    How do moral norms spontaneously evolve in the presence of
    selfish incentives? An answer to this question is provided by
    the observation that moral systems have two distinct functions:
    Besides encouraging self-sacrificing cooperation, they also bring
    organization and order into the societies. In contrast to the former,
    which is costly for the individuals but beneficial for the group,
    the latter is beneficial for both the group and the individuals. A
    simple evolutionary model suggests this latter aspect is what makes a
    moral system evolve based on the individuals self-interest. However,
    a moral system behaves like a Trojan horse: Once established out
    of the individuals self-interest to promote order and organization,
    it also brings self-sacrificing cooperation.

If you know what the Prisoner's Dilemma is in Game Theory but don't want
to wade through the whole paper, the summary included below from
https://phys.org/news/2022-11-moral-behavior-pays.html
may be of help.

I'm a bit of a Concordist when it comes to Maaseh Bereishis. (Concordism:
where one assumes that the science when properly understood and the
Torah when properly understood say the same thing. In contrast to
finding an apparent contradiction as "proof" that one or the other
system of knowledge is flawed. Or to be dismissed with respect to this
particular topic.)

So I have little problem with this paper -- it simply explains how HQBH
could use evolution to instill a yeitzer hatov.

But I have seen the supposed evolutionary disadvantage of self-sacrifice
used as an argument by those who take other approaches to the question of
Origins. This paper may force them to back off that one argument.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

   Phys.org
   Home > Other Sciences > Social Sciences
   November 18, 2022

   Study shows how moral behavior pays off in the end
   by Max Planck Society

   ...
   Mathematician Mohammad Salahshour of the Max Planck Institute for
   Mathematics in the Sciences in Leipzig, Germany, has used the tools
   of game theory to explain the emergence of moral norms -- because
   game theory studies how people make rational decisions in conflict
   situations. For Salahshour, the question at the outset was: why do
   moral norms exist in the first place? And why do we have different,
   or even contrasting moral norms?

   For example, while some norms such as "help others", promote
   self-sacrificing behavior, others, such as dress codes, appear not to
   have much to do with curbing selfishness. To answer these questions,
   Salahshour coupled two games: first, the classic prisoner's dilemma,
   in which two players must decide whether to cooperate for a small
   reward or betray themselves for a much larger reward (social dilemma).

   This game can be a typical example of a social dilemma, where success
   of a group as a whole requires individuals to behave selflessly. In
   this game everybody loses out if too many members of a group
   behave selfishly, compared to a scenario in which everybody acts
   altruistically. However, if only a few individuals behave selfishly,
   they can receive a better outcome than their altruistic team members.

   Second, a game that focuses on typical decisions within groups, such as
   a coordination task, distribution of resources, choice of a leader,
   or conflict resolution. Many of these problems can be ultimately
   categorized as coordination or anti-coordination problems.

   Without coupling the two games, it is clear that in the Prisoner's
   Dilemma, cooperation does not pay off, and self-interested behavior
   is the best choice from the individual's perspective if there are
   enough people who act selflessly. But individuals who act selfishly
   are not able to solve coordination problems efficiently and lose a
   lot of resources due to failing to coordinate their activity.

   The situation can be completely different when the results of the two
   games are considered as a whole and there are moral norms at work
   which favor cooperation: now cooperation in the prisoner's dilemma
   can suddenly pay off because the gain in the second game more than
   compensates for the loss in the first game.

   Out of self-interest to coordination and cooperation

   As a result of this process, not only cooperative behavior emerges,
   but also a social order. All individuals benefit from it -- and for
   this reason, moral behavior pay off for them. "In my evolutionary
   model, there were no selfless behaviors at the beginning, but more
   and more moral norms emerged as a result of the coupling of the two
   games," Salahshour reports.

   "Then I observed a sudden transition to a system where there is a lot
   of cooperation." In this "moral state", a set of norms of coordination
   evolve which help individuals to better coordinate their activity,
   and it is precisely through this that social norms and moral standards
   can emerge.

   However, coordination norms favor cooperation: cooperation turns out
   to be a rewarding behavior for the individual as well. "A moral system
   behaves like a Trojan horse: once established out of the individuals'
   self-interest to promote order and organization, it also brings
   self-sacrificing cooperation".

   Through his work, Salahshour hopes to better understand social systems.
   "This can help improve people's lives in the future," he explains. "But
   you can also use my game-theoretic approach to explain the emergence
   of social norms in social media. There, people exchange information
   and make strategic decisions at the same time -- for example, who to
   support or what cause to support."

   Again, he said, two dynamics are at work at once: the exchange
   of information and the emergence of cooperative strategies. Their
   interplay is not yet well understood -- but perhaps game theory will
   soon shed new light on this topical issue as well.

Do we really relegate justice in order to preserve the honour and prestige
of the Beis Din?

And where does this authority come from?

Kesuvos 26b - The first tanna, Rabbi Eliezer, holds: Once BD downgraded him
from the priesthood, we do not reinstate him because that will lead to the
BD being degraded - it looks as though the court does not know what it is
doing. Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel holds: We downgrade him from the
priesthood and we then elevate him, and as for the possibility that it will
lead to contempt for the court, we are not concerned about it. The primary
concern is that the matter be determined based on the relevant testimonies.


Best,

Meir G. Rabi

0423 207 837
+61 423 207 837
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A shiur discussed the question of a ben ch?ul who observes one day yom tov
when in aretz, flying back to ch?ul on yom tov sheini. My follow up: With
regard to the question of somebody from ch?ul keeping one day and flying on
the second day, a good follow up discussion might be ignoring a rabbi?s
position on keeping two days and then asking him what you should do if you
fly on the second day.
Your thoughts?
KT
Joel Rich
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On 22/11/22 23:34, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote:
> A shiur discussed the question of a ben ch?ul who observes one day yom 
> tov when in aretz, flying back to ch?ul on yom tov sheini. My follow up: 
> With regard to the question of somebody from ch?ul keeping one day and 
> flying on the second day, a good follow up discussion might be ignoring 
> a rabbi?s position on keeping two days and then asking him what you 
> should do if you fly on the second day.

I'm sorry, could you please rephrase this question?  I don't understand it.

PS: My answer to the original question is "Don't do that". Don't book a 
flight that leaves EY before dark on Isru Chag, which will be yomtov 
within minutes of taking off. By all means leave for the airport while 
it's still daylight, but don't take off until dark.


-- 
Zev Sero            ?Were we directed from Washington when to sow
z...@sero.name       and when to reap, we should soon want bread.?
                    ?Thomas Jefferson: Autobiography, 1821.

The poseik who he was asking whether he could fly back on the second day of
yom tov would have told him, if asked, that he should observe the second
day yom tov in Israel.  He has decided to follow a different poseik and not
observe the second day in Israel and is now asking the first poseik, given
that he has decided to only observe one day, can he land in Ch"ul by flying
from Israel on that day.
KT
Joel Rich

On Wed, Nov 23, 2022 at 11:19 AM Zev Sero via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

> On 22/11/22 23:34, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote:
> > A shiur discussed the question of a ben ch?ul who observes one day yom
> > tov when in aretz, flying back to ch?ul on yom tov sheini. My follow up:
> > With regard to the question of somebody from ch?ul keeping one day and
> > flying on the second day, a good follow up discussion might be ignoring
> > a rabbi?s position on keeping two days and then asking him what you
> > should do if you fly on the second day.
>
> I'm sorry, could you please rephrase this question?  I don't understand it.
>
> PS: My answer to the original question is "Don't do that". Don't book a
> flight that leaves EY before dark on Isru Chag, which will be yomtov
> within minutes of taking off. By all means leave for the airport while
> it's still daylight, but don't take off until dark.
>
>
> --
> Zev Sero            ?Were we directed from Washington when to sow
> z...@sero.name       and when to reap, we should soon want bread.?
>                     ?Thomas Jefferson: Autobiography, 1821.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing list
> Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
>
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