Avodah Mailing List

Volume 40: Number 68

Wed, 12 Oct 2022

• 1. Re: eiva/shalom (Micha Berger)
• 2. Succah Decorations (Prof. L. Levine)
• 3. Using Arbah Minim of Shviis (Prof. L. Levine)
• 4. Why are women exempt from positive time-bound mitzvot? Is this a matter of identity? (Prof. L. Levine)
• 5. Re: The Mishna on Daf so-and-so (Zvi Lampel)
• 6. Re: The Shevatim - free and independent? (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: The Mishna on Daf so-and-so (Micha Berger)
• 8. eiva/darkei shalom (Joel Rich)

On Thu, Oct 06, 2022 at 06:08:46PM -0400, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote:
> Anyone aware of any detailed analysis comparing the concepts of mishum eiva
> and darkei shalom?


Here are the answers I saw on the FB copy of this question, starting
with my own:

R Aharon Lichtenstein [but I couldn't remember where, so on FB I gave
this summary]:

Mishum eivah is "merely" the importance of keeping hatred out of the
world.

Whereas darkei Shalom is the ultimate - to walk in Hashem's and His
Torah's ways.

Neither means what I was taught in school.

Mishum eivah is why we never have two Kohanim Gedolim. (Megillah 9b)
Also comes up in a discussion of the father owning what his dependent
daughter finds. (Kesuvos 46b-47a) The idiom is used in contexts that
have nothing to do with antisemitism.

And as for darkei Shalom, see this quote from the Rambam. The reason for
darkei Shalom is "tov Hashem lakol" and "vekhol nesivoseha shalom". (I
even capitalize the "S" in "Shalom" because the quote from Tehillim
makes me suspect it is there as Hashen's name.)

[Hebrew elided. Hilkhos Melakhim 10:12:]
    ... Even with regard to idolaters, at our Sages have commanded us to
    visit their sick and bury their dead along with Jewish dead, and
    sustain their poor along with the poor of Israel is for the "sake of
    peace", since it says, "G-d is good to all, and His mercies extend
    upon all his works" (Psalms 145:9) and it says, "her ways are ways
    of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace" (Proverbs 3:17).
    https://www.sefaria.org/Mishneh_Torah,_Kings_and_Wars.10.12

--



--


that dina demalkhuta dina and the issur mesira are inversely proportional

--



https://www.sefaria.org/sheets/65115?lang=bi

--


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Problems are not stop signs,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   they are guidelines.
Author: Widen Your Tent              - Robert H. Schuller
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

The following is form today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis.


Q. I am visiting my parents for the first days of Sukkos and my in-laws for
the last days. We hung up, in my parent?s Sukkah, decorations that my
children made in school. Can we take them down and bring them with us and
hang them in my in-law?s Sukkah?

A. Not only does a Sukkah have special holiness, but the decorations are
infused with holiness as well. One may not remove Sukkah decorations from a
Sukkah for no reason, unless they were hung before Sukkos on condition that
they should not become holy. (There is a specific wording that one must say
to prevent them from becoming holy ? ?aini bodel mayhen kol bein hashmashos
shel ches yamim.? [I do not separate myself from them all the twilights of
the eight days (of Sukkos).]) However, if one is concerned that they will
be ruined or stolen, they may be removed (Piskei Teshuvos 638:7 ? citing
Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, zt?l). Similarly, Tzitz Eliezer (13:67) writes
that if the intent is to hang them in another Sukkah, this too is
permitted. He explains that this is not considered ?bizui mitzvah?
(belittling of the mitzvah), since the decoration is being transferred to
another Sukkah. Rav Moshe Sternbuch, shlita points out that one may not
decrease the level of sanctity of the decorat
 ions. If the decorations were hanging from the s?chach, they should be
 hung again on the s?chach, which has a higher level of holiness than the
 walls (Mo?adim U?zmanim 6:68).

Professor Yitzchok Levine
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From

https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/10877


This author recently received several similar sounding Shemitta sheilos
regarding the purchasing of the Arbah Minim for this upcoming Sukkos, the
year after Shemitta - when the Arbah Minim in and from Eretz Yisrael would
be from Shemitta produce; yet, quite interestingly, the answers given were
not the same.

  *   The first was from an American supplier of Arbah Minim for his city,
  who normally imported a large shipment of Israeli Esrogim et al. for
  Sukkos. He wanted to know if he may import his supply from Eretz Yisrael
  as usual.
  *   The second was from potential purchasers in Chutz La?aretz - who wanted to
  *   know if they may they buy their Arbah Minim from their usual supplier of superior Israeli ?Schoirah.?
  *   A third query concerned bochurim returning home to Chutz La?aretz for
  Sukkos. Are they permitted to take along a mehudar Esrog for themselves
  and perhaps their father as well?
  *

Although all of these questions sound quite similar, the issues involved
are actually quite complicated, and the halacha actually varies, due to
several important factors.

Kedushas Sheviis Status

First of all, it is important to note that only two of the four Sukkos
species have no debate ascertaining whether or not they contain Kedushas
Sheviis status: the Esrog and the Aravah. Concerning the Esrog, as it is an
edible and fragrant fruit, all agree that if it grew and was picked during
Shemitta[1]<https://ohr.edu/10877#_edn1> it
would have Kedushas Sheviis; whereas the Aravah, the exact opposite holds
true, and all consider it not to have Kedushas Sheviis, as it has no other
use than being used for the Mitzvah and is not edible nor fragrant. Yet, it
turns out that both the Lulav and Hadass? status vis a vis

Kedushas Sheviis is not so simple.


Regarding Hadassim, as they are fragrant, the issue seems dependent on
whether their main use is for the Mitzvah on Sukkos, or for their
fragrance, as in example, many use them for Besamim for Havdalah.
Practically, it seems that as long as they are not actively being used for
their fragrance and rather for Sukkos use, most contemporary authorities
consider Hadassimnot to be Shemitta produce, and allow them be purchased as
usual, as opposed to produce imbued with Kedushas Sheviis[2]<https://ohr.edu/10877#_edn2> (as
explained in previous articles).[3]<https://ohr.edu/10877#_edn3>


See the above URL for a detailed discussion of these issues.


Professor Yitzchok Levine




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I have heard often that women are exempt for positive time-bound mitzvas,
because they are busy taking care of their family. However, if this is
the true, then women who are not married or whose children are grown
and out to the house should be obligated in positive time-bound mitzvas
during these periods. I found what is IMO a much better explanation at

https://www.deracheha.org/positive-time-bound-mitzvot/

 From this web site


Rav Samson Raphael Hirsch (Germany, 19th century) suggests that women?s exemption derives from both essential and practical gender differences:

Rav S. R. Hirsch, Commentary to Vayikra 23:43 (Judaica Press translation)

    The Torah did not impose these mitzvot on women because it did not
    consider them necessary to be demanded from women. All time-bound
    mitzvot are meant, by symbolic procedures, to bring certain facts,
    principles, ideas and resolutions afresh to our minds from time to
    time to fortify us to realize them to keep them. God's Torah takes
    it for granted that our women have greater fervor and more faithful
    enthusiasm for their God-serving calling [than men], and that this
    calling runs less danger in their case than in that of men from the
    temptations which occur in the course of business and professional
    life. Accordingly it does not find it necessary to give women these
    repeated spurring reminders to remain true to their calling...

    For Rav Hirsch, women's "greater fervor and more faithful enthusiasm"
    for serving God," together with a more sheltered lifestyle than men's,
    makes these particular mitzvot unnecessary for women.

At first glance, this argument sounds like an elevation of women's
spirituality above men's. However, Rav Hirsch is not advocating reverse
gender bias. How do we know this? Elsewhere, Rav Hirsch refers to men and
women as spiritual equals:
<https://www.deracheha.org/positive-time-bound-mitzvot/#n7>

Rav S. R. Hirsch, 'The Jewish Woman,' Judaism Eternal

    While fully appreciating the special and deeply implanted
    characteristics of the female sex, the Sages also attribute to it
    complete spiritual and intellectual equality with the male.


What, then, is his claim? Women and men have complementary roles, and
a woman needs less external prodding, such as that provided by positive
time-bound mitzvot, to fulfill her role.
<https://www.deracheha.org/positive-time-bound-mitzvot/#n8>
Furthermore, men's professional roles outside the home present risks
that these particular mitzvot help counteract, a process unnecessary
for more domestically-oriented women. Although significant, internal
motivation is not the only measure of spirituality.


[Email #2. -micha]

My good friend and often critic Rabbi Dr. Joel Rosenshein called shortly
after my earlier post on this topic expressing strong criticism about that
I sent out. In particular, he asked "Why didn't you quote the Mishna and
the RAMBAM of this subject?"

 From https://www.deracheha.org/positive-time-bound-mitzvot/

Mishna Kiddushin 1:7

    And all positive mitzvot that are time-bound, men are obligated and
    women are exempt. And all positive mitzvot that are not time-bound,
    both men and women are obligated.

"Zeman geramah," literally means 'time causes it.' Rambam explains that
these obligations apply only at specific times:

Rambam, Commentary to the Mishna, Kiddushin 1:7

    "Mitzvat Aseh she-hazeman geramah" means that the obligation to
    perform it applies at a certain time, and that at other times the
    obligation does not apply.

I do hope that this addition satisfies my friend Dr. Rosenschein!

YL

>
> From: Akiva Miller <akivagmil...@gmail.com>
>
> ... "There's a mishna in Yuma daf peh heh
> amud beis."...If someone is quoting a Mishna, and wants to tell you where
> it is found,
> why not tell me the perek? Or even better, the perek number, and mishna
> number? Why does everyone tell where it can be found in the *gemara*?
>

I'm of the same mind. I was once hired to translate / edit a work that
referenced the Gemara pages for the mishnayos cited. I changed  those to
the perek and mishna number. But the main editor changed it back.

The only explanation I can conceive is the fact that whereas the Gemara
pages are totally standardized, there are some instances of different
halacha numbers in different editions of the Mishna. (Ahvos is an example
of that, but there's no Gemara on Ahvos.) . But I doubt this is the concern.

Zvi Lampel
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On Thu, Oct 06, 2022 at 06:27:11AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> (As an aside, as a child growing up, I viewed the 50 united States as
> merely administrative areas. It took a long time for me to realize - and
> even now I often forget - that in truth, "these united Colonies are, and of
> Right ought to be Free and Independent States", which banded together only
> for specific purposes. The independent Shevatim, and the united Bnei
> Yisrael, are similar.)

Actually, the States' Rights thing was decided by the Civil War. Which
is why you will see that newspapers in the north from the era would have
"The United States is" whereas those in the south would speak of "The
Confederate States are".

It is possible that the same was part of the story of Yerav'am's
revolt. The shevatim further from Yehudah were upset that all the power
was centralized in Jerusalem. And all the taxes going to Jerusalem.
They then set up two temples at opposited ends of Malkhus Yisrael,
so that their religion isn't localized.

But in particular, you write about the Kohein Gadol's sheivet. They
bedavka didn't have a nachalah, no "state"; they lived among everyone.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 The purely righteous do not complain about evil,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   but add justice, don't complain about heresy,
Author: Widen Your Tent      but add faith, don't complain about ignorance,
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    but add wisdom.     - R AY Kook, Arpelei Tohar

On Tue, Oct 04, 2022 at 05:28:09PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> At the moment, I'm listening to a recorded shiur, in which the speaker
> says, and these are his exact words, "There's a mishna in Yuma daf peh heh
> amud beis."

I am guessing it's stam easier, because the person doing the citation
saw the mishnah last while learning gemara. Why take out a second book?

But... Isn't there more consistency if you cite by Vilna / Romm daf rather
than by mishnah number? Often different editions divide the mishnayos of
a pereq differently. (Aside from Sanhedrin peraqim 10 & 11 <grin>.)

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Imagine waking up tomorrow
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   with only the things
Author: Widen Your Tent      we thanked Hashem for today!
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

Without looking them up,  which of these do you think qualify under eiva
and which under darkei shalom with regard to non-Jews -explain :-)

Assisting in unloading their animal

Giving a eulogy or burying the dead

Acting as a midwife

Allowing them to have our agricultural gifts(e.g. peah)

Accepting a gift from an official

Feeding their poor or treating the ill


GT
Joel Rich
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