Avodah Mailing List

Volume 40: Number 57

Sun, 21 Aug 2022

• 1. Re: Child Convert (Akiva Miller)
• 2. Re: Child Convert (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Child Convert (Akiva Miller)
• 4. Re: Child Convert (Zev Sero)
• 5. Parashas Eikev: All About Tachanun (Prof. L. Levine)
• 6. Keeping Kosher at an A?i?r?b?n?b? (Prof. L. Levine)
• 7. Worshiping G-d Without Limud haTorah (Prof. L. Levine)

.
R' Micha Berger wrote:

> Some batei din may make a ceremony out of qabbalas ol mitzvos
> to solemnize the event. But halachically, such a question has
> little merit. And what if the answer doesn't match the action?
> According to R Zvi Flaum (who headed the beis din in my son's
> case), it can only complicate the issue.

Where is the Darchei Noam here?
Why do we rob this person of his freedom to choose?

I could go on and on, but less is more.

Akiva Miller
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On Wed, Aug 17, 2022 at 04:18:00PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> Where is the Darchei Noam here?
> Why do we rob this person of his freedom to choose?

We aren't depriving the bar/t mitzvah of their say as to whether to
accept ol mitzvos or not.

We are saying that since actions speak louder than words, we aren't giving
them a soapbox for their words. We cannot believe them over the tween's
actions. So, all it will do will create a halachic mess about how much
to doubt those actions.

But they are choosing to behaviorally be observant.

The real question is more the qabbalas ol mitzvos of someone we cannot
know of whether they're meqavel ol mitzvos or just socially Orthoprax. A
problem in general with geirus, until beis din or their eidim can read
minds...

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 You cannot propel yourself forward
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   by patting yourself on the back.
Author: Widen Your Tent                      -Anonymous
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

R' Micha Berger wrote:

> We aren't depriving the bar/t mitzvah of their say as to
> whether to accept ol mitzvos or not.
> ...
> But they are choosing to behaviorally be observant.

Are they really *choosing* to behaviorally be observant?

To me, this seems to be a case of UNinformed consent, and I can't
understand why this would be considered a legally valid consent. (I *DO*
understand that in Chazal's view, there is a presumption that being Jewish
is a zechus. The part I don't get is why we don't verify the presumption
once the child is old enough.)

> The real question is more the qabbalas ol mitzvos of someone
> we cannot know of whether they're meqavel ol mitzvos or just
> socially Orthoprax. A problem in general with geirus, until
> beis din or their eidim can read minds...

I will concede that we cannot read minds, and that it is possible for a
ger-applicant to fool the Beis Din of their sincerity. But you can at least
see that this ger-applicant verbalized his willing acceptance of the
mitzvos. He was fully informed, and had the ability to say "no", and yet
went through the procedure anyway. This is a good example of "devarim
shebalev aynam devarim" - the legal system can't care about what you're
hiding in your head.

But the ger katan had none of this.

> ... all it will do will create a halachic mess about how
> much to doubt those actions.

It is so easy for me to imagine a ger katan who was never told that he/she
was adopted, kvetching to a friend, "I really don't like all these mitzvos.
I wish there was a way to opt out. I had a dream that I was adopted and
converted as a baby, and that I really *could* opt out, but those are my
real birth parents, so I'm stuck."

Talk about messes, what is that kid's status? Has he retroactively undone
the geirus? Does it make a difference if that friend happens to know the
truth about the adoption?

If/when such a mess arises, then deal with it. It's not the only sort of
mess that results from mixing halacha with free-willed choices. Meanwhile,
denying this option seems very cruel to me.

Akiva Miller
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On 18/8/22 08:03, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:

> Are they really *choosing* to behaviorally be observant?
> To me, this seems to be a case of UNinformed consent,

I don't think that matters. I think this proves that as far as halacha 
is concerned consent is consent, and there is no requirement for 
informed consent.

-- 
Zev Sero            ?Were we directed from Washington when to sow
z...@sero.name       and when to reap, we should soon want bread.?
                    ?Thomas Jefferson: Autobiography, 1821.

From

https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/10045


Visitors to Yeshivas Ohr Somayach?s famous ?Mechina? 3:45 P.M. daily Mincha
(you are also welcome to join) are wont to comment on the fact that
everyone recites Tachanun with Nefillas Apayim, the placing down of the
head on an arm, even though the Beis Midrash where this Tefillah is held,
the Lauffer Beis Midrash, does not have a SeferTorah or even an AronKodesh.

The reason they find this behavior odd is because the Rema, the
authoritative codifier of Ashkenazic practical halacha, rules that if there
is no SeferTorah in a shul, Tachanun should still be said, but without
Nefillas Apayim.[1]<https://ohr.edu/10045#_edn1> This
distinction is traced back to the Neviim that ?falling down? in prayer is
reserved for when an Aron is present.[2]<https://ohr.edu/10045#_edn2>
Although several authorities did not concur with this distinction,[3]<https://ohr.edu/10045#_edn3> this
nonetheless remains common practice. If so, the visitors ask, why would Ohr
Somayach not follow such a widespread custom?

Please see the above URL for much more about Tachanun.

YL



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From https://cor.ca/2019/07/keeping-kosher-at-an-airbnb/

Summer is a time when the fortunate among us are able to get away for a
vacation. Some of us stay with friends, others in hotels, and still others
rent cabins or homes found on sites such as Airbnb. But what are the kosher
concerns when renting a space that has previously been used for non kosher
food? Below are some of areas that one should be concerned about and the
following are some of the more practical solutions for travellers.

Please see the above URL for kosher guidelines regarding


Tables and Countertops


Microwave Ovens


Ovens


Stove Tops


Sinks


Spring Water Machines


Urns & Kettles


Coffee, Coffee Makers & Keurig


Professor Yitzchok Levine


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The following is from Rav on Prayer, pages 358 - 359:

In attempting to worship G-d without limud ha Torah, he is no longer
worshipping the Ribono shel Olam. Judaism without Torah is "another
religion," similar to all others, which have prayers, rituals, observances
and prohibitions, and, in former times, animal sacrifices. The attempt to
worship G-d without limud ha Torah is called elohim acharim. If a non-Jew
wishes to embrace Judaism and is willing to accept everything except
learning Torah, he may just as well stay with his own religion, because a
"Torah less" form of Judaism is not Judaism at all.

Rashi further explains the meaning of elohim acharim as follows:
They are called other gods because they are strangers to those
who worship them; one pleads with it but it does not
answer; consequently, this "other god" is a "stranger
to the person who prays to it.

What Rashi means here is that the first step toward actual avodah
zarah is when a person abandons Torah learning.
but attempts to maintain a relationship with Hakadosh Baruch Hu. This
relationship will be as cool as if it were with a stranger. Without Torah
learning, Hakadosh Baruch Hu is elohim acharim.

The person may believe in Hashem Echod, and he is certainly not an idol
worshipper, but, as the result of his separation from Torah, he feels no
contact with Hakadosh Baruch Hu, he does not have the feeling that
someone is listening to his tefillos.  And, as in the time of the Tanach,
when there was a fascination with avodah zarah, this relationship with
Hakadosh Baruch Hu as a "stranger," without limud haTorah, will
dissipate altogether and deteriorate into actual avodah zarah, in which
people have a mystical experience and imagine that someone really is
listening to them.

Professor Yitzchok Levine
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