Avodah Mailing List

Volume 40: Number 33

Thu, 12 May 2022

• 1. Re: When early shabbos is Rosh Chodesh (Marty Bluke)
• 2. Re: When early shabbos is Rosh Chodesh (Akiva Miller)
• 3. yirei shomaim (Joel Rich)
• 4. Re: When early shabbos is Rosh Chodesh (Akiva Miller)
• 5. Wedding Attendance During Your Part of Sefira (Prof. L. Levine)
• 6. Re: Wedding Attendance During Your Part of Sefira (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Wedding Attendance During Your Part of Sefira (Zev Sero)
• 8. The Parasha Dual Dichotomy 5782/2022; Which Week is Which?." (Prof. L. Levine)

R' Akiva Miller wrote:
> So we have three exceptions, where Kabalas Shabbos affect the nature of the
> day even for non-Shabbos halachos: tefila, benching, and meat/wine during
> the nine days. Can anyone think of other exceptions? And what do they have
> in common?

The answer for Yaaleh Vyavo is as I stated earlier. There is no general
chiyuv to say Yaaleh Vyavo on Rosh Chodesh. The chiyuv is to be mazkir me
ein hameora in the tefilos of Rosh Chodesh. The tefila of maariv late
Friday afternoon is NOT a tefilla of Rosh Chodesh, you already said the 4
tefilos of Rosh Chodesh. Therefore you don't say Yaaleh Vyavo in that
tefila. The same would apply to bentching. You say Yaaleh Vyavo in a seuda
of Rosh Chodesh. The meal late Friday afternoon is not considered a seuda
of Rosh Chodesh and therefore no Yaaleh Vyavo.

Regarding the kula on erev tisha bav, the same applies to any avel. An avel
sitting shiva does not observe aveilus in public once he is mekabel
shabbos. The explanation may be that this is unique to aveilus which is a
kiyum shebalev. This kiyum shebalev is in direct contradiction to the
essence of shabbos and therefore can't be imposed once shabbos has started.


[Email #2. -micha]

Another possible answer is the following. Tosefes Shabbos doesn't turn day
into night and therefore things like nidda, issurim, etc. are not affected
by tosefes shabbos. However, this only applies when it doesn't directly
contradict tosefes shabbos. When it directly contradicts the tosefes
shabbos something has to give we can't have tartei dsasrei. Saying yaale
Vyavo in the maariv of shabbos is a direct contradiction. If it's shabbos
it's not Rosh Chodesh and Vice versa. Therefore, in a situation of tartei
dsasrei something has to give so we don't say Yaaleh Vyavo. The same
applies to meat/wine during the 9 days. There is a Mitzva of kiddush on
wine on Friday night and a Mitzva of seuda. Not drinking wine and eating
meat is a direct contradiction to tosefes shabbos and therefore is
permitted.

In short, the exceptions are whenever it creates a direct contradiction to
Kedushas Shabbos creating a tartei dsasrei, in those cases shabbos takes
precedence.

.
R' Marty Bluke wrote:

> The tefila of maariv late Friday afternoon is NOT a tefilla of
> Rosh Chodesh, you already said the 4 tefilos of Rosh Chodesh.
> Therefore you don?t say Yaaleh Vyavo in that tefila.

To me, this appears reasonable. But it also seems somewhat arbitrary, as it
goes directly against my suggestion that one should (or at least could)
include Yaaleh Vyavo in that early maariv. I freely admit that I have no
source for my reasoning. Do you have a source to support your assertion
that:
> There is no general chiyuv to say Yaaleh Vyavo on Rosh Chodesh.
> The chiyuv is to be mazkir me ein hameora in the tefilos of Rosh
> Chodesh.

Either way, your posts made me think of an interesting situation. Suppose
it is one of these Fridays which are Rosh Chodesh, and Shabbos is not Rosh
Chodesh anymore, and a person accepted Shabbos upon himself. And then he
realizes that he forgot to say Musaf.

Note that I'm not asking about one who forgot Mincha; that could be
repaired with two maarivs. I'm asking about Musaf which cannot be repaired
after RC is over, and which would be an explicit contradiction after
beginning Shabbos. This is similar to the case of obtaining a shofar on RH
afternoon after accepting Shabbos, but there we had the option of blowing
the shofar without saying the bracha. Here, davening Musaf without saying a
bracha is rather impossible. What should one do?

> Saying yaale Vyavo in the maariv of shabbos is a direct
> contradiction. If it?s shabbos it?s not Rosh Chodesh and Vice
> versa. Therefore, in a situation of tartei dsasrei something
> has to give so we don?t say Yaaleh Vyavo. The same applies to
> meat/wine during the 9 days. There is a Mitzva of kiddush on
> wine on Friday night and a Mitzva of seuda. Not drinking wine
> and eating meat is a direct contradiction to tosefes shabbos
> and therefore is permitted.

Wouldn't that logic also apply to an Asara B'Teves which falls on Friday?

The same way that avoidance of wine/meat on Erev Shabbos Chazon would be a
direct contradiction to Tosefes Shabbos, so too the avoidance of
eating/drinking on the afternoon of Asarah B'Teves would be a direct
contradiction to Tosefes Shabbos. Why is it that Shabbos wins in the case
of Shabbos Chazon, but Friday wins in the case of Asara B'Teves?

Please note that the source for fasting until tzeis in the Asara B'Teves
case is the Rama in 249:4, which actually doesn't mention Asara B'Teves
explicitly at all. It is all about how the end time for a fast is totally
dependent on what one had in mind when the fast was initially accepted.
Which leads me to suspect that if Chazal had chosen to do so, they could
have set up Asara B'Teves - ab initio, from the very beginning - to end
earlier than tzeis when it would fall on Friday. I wonder why they didn't.

Akiva Miller
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A Bar-Ilan search showed less than fifteen times that the Shulchan Aruch
used the phrase yirei shomaim in the context of taking action to be yotzei
more than one opinion. It would be interesting to tally how many times this
approach was used in S?A vs. M?B vs. AH?. In particular what were the
parameters used in determining in which cases were multiple opinions of
concern and which cases not (and why did different codifiers have different
trip wires)?  Thoughts?
KT
Joel Rich
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.
I found the following at
https://dinonline.org/2011/06/05/davening-maariv-early-on-friday-rosh-chodesh/

> Davening Maariv Early on Friday Rosh Chodesh
>
> When one is mekabel shabbos early and friday is rosh chodesh,
> should one say yaleh v?yavo in the shabbos davening? Is it best
> not to make early shabbos so as not to enter into such problems?
>
> Answer:
>
> If one davens Maariv of Shabbos early on Friday Rosh Chodesh,
> Yaaleh Veyavo is not said (Magen Avraham 419:1; Mishnah Berurah
> 424:2). The reasoning is that with regard to Maariv it is
> considered as night. This principle is based on the Terumas
> Hadeshen (109), and others.
>
> Note that this is not necessarily true for one who eats before
> Maariv, accepting Shabbos by making kiddush, and this will
> probably depend on the dispute between Maharshal and Taz
> concerning eating early on the night of Shemini Atzeres (does
> one make the beracha on the Sukkah). It is preferable not to do
> this when Friday falls on Rosh Chodesh.

Well, I guess my main question has been answered. MB 424:2 does cite the
MA, and his reasoning is quite similar (perhaps identical) to that of R'
Marty Bluke.

I was fascinated, though, because the MB doesn't mention Shabbos at all. It
is a somewhat lengthy se'if, covering several situations, and in all of
them they davened the post-RC Maariv early on a regular weekday! Even when
there is no Kabalas Shabbos to conflict with Rosh Chodesh, they davened an
ordinary Maariv (without Yaaleh V'yavo) and then ate their meal while it
was still day; and because Yaaleh Vyavo was left out of Maariv it must also
be left out of the subsequent Birkas Hamazon.

If anyone has been following this thread, I strongly recommend this MB, as
it discusses several interesting variations on this theme.

Akiva Miller

PS: Just for the record, I'm still wondering:
1) What to do if one finally remembers RC Musaf after beginning Shabbos
2) Why Shabbos wins on Erev Shabbos Chazon, but Shabbos loses on Asara
B'Teves
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The following is from today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis


Q. My minhag is to maintain the customs of mourning after Lag B?Omer
(commonly known as the second half of Sefira). I was invited to a wedding
on Lag B?Omer, but the music and dancing will continue after nightfall. Am
I permitted to continue to participate in the dancing? Similarly, may I
attend a wedding that is scheduled during the latter days of the Sefira?

A. Rav Moshe Feinstein, zt?l (Igeros Moshe OC 1:159) writes that the
minhagim of Sefira are overridden by the mitzvah to be misameyach (bring
joy to) the chasan and kallah. He writes that it appears that one can
participate at a wedding, even if it took place inappropriately during
Sefira. Although it is forbidden to arrange a wedding during certain days
of the Sefira, it is permissible to dance and celebrate once the couple is
married. Rav Moshe proves this from a ruling of the Shulchan Aruch (OC
493:1). Shulchan Aruch writes that one is forbidden to get married between
Pesach and Lag B?Omer, but if one did, we do not penalize him. Rav Moshe
argues that if no one is permitted to celebrate with the couple, that would
be an exceptionally severe punishment. It follows that if the marriage was
performed in accordance with halacha, those who have a different minhag may
certainly dance and celebrate together with the chasan and kallah. Rav
Belsky, zt?l (Shulchan Halevi 13:7) pointed out t
 hat one who keeps the second half of Sefira should not join in the dancing
 unless the chasan and kallah are present, since the allowance to
 participate is based on bringing joy to the bride and groom.

There was a time when the Kallah was brought to the men's side of the hall,
she sat down next to her Chasan, and men danced in front of them.  In many
circles this is no longer done today.

The above says, "those who have a different minhag may certainly dance and
celebrate together with the chasan and kallah."  This does not happen if
the chason  and kallah remain on their sides of the mechitzah throughout
the entire wedding.  Dare one suggest that not having the kallah come to
the men's side of hall is not proper?

YL
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On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 01:31:46PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> The following is from today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis
> 
>> Q. My minhag is to maintain the customs of mourning after Lag B'Omer
>> (commonly known as the second half of Sefira). I was invited to a wedding
>> on Lag B'Omer, but the music and dancing will continue after nightfall. Am
>> I permitted to continue to participate in the dancing? Similarly, may
>> I attend a wedding that is scheduled during the latter days of the Sefira?

> A. Rav Moshe Feinstein, zt'l (Igeros Moshe OC 1:159) writes that the
> minhagim of Sefira are overridden by the mitzvah to be misameyach (bring
> joy to) the chasan and kallah....

Not mentioned, but RMF also said you can switch practices by the demands
of the year. So,if you are invited to a wedding for the night after Lag
baOmer, keep the first 33 days that year.

See SA OC 493:2. The Mechber allows haircurring as of the morning of
34 laOmer (as Sepharadim count "la'omer", that's the language in the
Mechaber -- Lag laOmer). Except if Lag laOmer is a Friday, one can go
for a hair cut lekhavod Shabbos.

The Rama says that in our countries (Ashkenazim? Eastern Europe in
particular?) haircuts and small joyous activities are allowed during the
day of Lag BaOmer itself. Tachanun is omitted. But only during the day --
the Maharil explicitly says the night of Lag baOmer is mourned.

Unless one is from Frankfurt (see MB 493:15, quoting Siddur Derekh
haChaim) or Vienna (Be'rei Heiteiv 493:3, quoting the Or Zarua), allowing
a wedding the night of Lag baOmer is recent.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 26th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   3 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Hod sheb'Netzach: When is domination or taking
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF       control just a way of abandoning one's self?

On 12/5/22 09:31, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> There was a time when the Kallah was brought to the men's side of the 
> hall, she sat down next to her Chasan, and men danced in front of them. 
> In many circles this is no longer done today.

In those circles where it is not done today it was never done.


> The above says, "those who have a different /minhag/ may certainly dance 
> and celebrate together with the /chasan/ and /kallah/."? This does not 
> happen if the chason? and kallah remain on their sides of the mechitzah 
> throughout the entire wedding.

That's ridiculous.  The mitzvah is to celebrate with either one of them, 
not only both.


>? Dare one suggest that not having the 
> kallah come to the men's side of hall is not proper?

One may suggest anything one likes, but one would be incorrect, lechol 
hade'os.  Those who never had this custom of bringing the kallah to the 
men's side, and still don't have it, are acting completely properly, and 
it is a chutzpah to claim they are not.  Especially if you would take 
offense at their suggesting that your custom is improper.

-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing you a healthy season appropriate
z...@sero.name       to your hemisphere

From

https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/9851
[https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/494286688/Ohr-Somayach-Logo-150sq_bigger.jpg]<;https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/9851>
The Parasha Dual Dichotomy 5782/2022 Which Week Is Which? by Rabbi Yehuda
Spitz<https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/9851>
ohr.edu

This time of year is an interesting one. For the next several months or so,
already starting right after Pesach, and lasting all the way almost up
until Tisha B?Av, the Jewish world will not be aligned. No, I am not
referring to constellations, but rather to the weekly parasha. A simple
innocuous question of ?What?s this week?s parasha?? will elicit a different
response depending on where in the world the question is being asked. This
is because the parasha will not be the same regularly scheduled one in
ChutzLa?aretz as it is in EretzYisrael.


Truthfully, this type of dichotomy actually happens not so infrequently, as
it essentially occurs whenever the last day of a Yom Tov falls on Shabbos.
In ChutzLa?aretz where YomTovSheini is halachically mandated,[1]<https://ohr.edu/9851#_edn1> a Yom
Tov Kriyas HaTorah is publicly leined, yet, in EretzYisrael (unless by
specific Chutznikminyanim)[2]<https://ohr.edu/9851#_edn2>[3]<https://ohr.edu/9851#_edn3> the
Kriyas HaTorah of the next scheduled Parasha is read. This puts
EretzYisrael a Parasha ahead until the rest of the world soon ?catches up?,
by an upcoming potential double-Parasha, which each would be read
separately in EretzYisrael.

See the above URL for much more.

YL
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