Avodah Mailing List

Volume 40: Number 15

Tue, 01 Mar 2022

• 1. Re: Kosher Supermarkets (Marty Bluke)
• 2. Re: Kosher Supermarkets (Prof. Levine)
• 3. Kashrus and Housekeepers (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Kashrus and Housekeepers (Prof. Levine)
• 5. Re: Kashrus and Housekeepers (Harry Maryles)
• 6. Re: Kashrus and Housekeepers (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Kashrus and Housekeepers (Prof. Levine)
• 8. Re: Kashrus and Housekeepers (Micha Berger)
• 9. Administrivia (Akiva Miller)

On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 5:36 PM Prof. Levine <larry62...@optonline.net> wrote:
> It is fascinating how here in this Halacha  you are willing to rely on
> various kulos etc. but when it comes to food you are super strict....

What you are relying on to give your cleaning lady a gift is a kula. She is
not expecting the gift in any way and doesn't clean your house any better
because you once gave her some food that you wouldn't eat. Therefore it is
not so clear that it is permitted to give the food.

Did you ask your Rav whether it was permitted before you gave her the gift?

I am not the one who said that people are more makpid on things like kosher
food then money. Rav Moshe Feinstein said it. He was very disappointed by
the low volume of questions that he received about monetary matters versus
other areas. Rav Yisrael Salanter was once approached by a shochet who told
him that he wants to stop being a shochet and become a businessman because
he feels being a shochet is too much responsibility. Rav Yisrael answered
him you are sorely mistaken. It is a much bigger responsibility to be a
businessman. There are many many more halachos related to business then
food.

Unfortunately, most people don't know this.

Marty Bluke wrote on 2/27/22
> No I don't know her, I was speaking in general. Every case needs to 
> be addressed by itself and that is why you need to ask a Rav and 
> can't simply pasken based on some article that you read online."

I sent the message below to a Rav.

> On Purim I always get Shalach Monos containing products under
> supervisions I do not use or with no supervision at all. In addition,
> I at times get homemade baked goods, and I do not eat anything from
> other people's homes save things from oldest son's house.

> Is there any problem with me giving these items to my gentile maid?

Below is his reply.

> Not at all. Only can't give meat/milk combination.

> So I hope that this back and forth is finally settled, and you now 
> realize that my position is correct for my hashgacha standards.

Yitzchok Levine

Apropos of another conversation:

In one's own house, but with a housekeeper who is allowed to rearrange
your refrigerator freezer (she cleans them, after al), how do you avoid
basar ne'elam min ha'ayin issues?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

At 06:16 PM 2/27/2022, Micha Berger wrote:
>Apropos of another conversation:
>
>In one's own house, but with a housekeeper who is allowed to rearrange
>your refrigerator freezer (she cleans them, after al), how do you avoid
>basar ne'elam min ha'ayin issues?
>
>Tir'u baTov!
>-Micha

Simple, I watch her while she cleans the freezer. In addition, if you 
buy and freeze factory packaged meat and poultry, then this prevents 
any problems, I would think.

There is another problem that I encountered a few weeks ago. I went 
shopping while my cleaning lady was in my house. When I came home, I 
saw a pot of mine with 3 eggs in it that she had cooked! When I 
confronted her about this, and she told me in Spanish (which her 
phone translated into English),  that she did not have time to 
prepare lunch before she came to work for me. I told her in no 
uncertain terms that she was not to ever cook anything and that I 
would give her lunch if she did not bring her own.

I asked a Rav and was told that I had to kasher the pot due to bishul akum.

When she brings her own lunch, she eats it at the table with paper 
towels under her food.

YL

PS.  I will be getting a home health aide starting on Tuesday.  I 
will make it very clear to this person they are not to cook anything 
in my home.

I don?t think this qualifies. There?s also the fact that there is a sort of
Yotze V?Nichnas hasgacha going on. The housekeeper knows the homeowner can
show up at any minute and won?t do anything for fear of losing her job.

HM

Sent from my iPhone, Shirley.

> On Feb 27, 2022, at 6:19 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
> 
> ?Apropos of another conversation:
> 
> In one's own house, but with a housekeeper who is allowed to rearrange
> your refrigerator freezer (she cleans them, after al), how do you avoid
> basar ne'elam min ha'ayin issues?
> 
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing list
> Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org

On Sun, Feb 27, 2022 at 07:45:20PM -0500, Harry Maryles wrote:
> I don't think this qualifies. There's also the fact that there is a
> sort of Yotze V'Nichnas hasgacha going on. The housekeeper knows the
> homeowner can show up at any minute and won't do anything for fear of
> losing her job.

The whole point of basar ne'elam min ha'ayin is that yotzei venichnas is
not sufficient for meat that isn't sealed. So, the Rama in YD 63:2 says
that we are meiqil on BNMhA, if and only if it was found where you left
it. The AhS se'if 2 affirms that we are nohagim like the Rama. (Adding
that we are also lenient in the not applicable case where a "kusi"
has meat in a town where all the meat in town is kosher.)

And Sepharadim have bigger problems than the AhS's "we, as the BY
(sei'f 1) is machmir unless you recognize the piece or have a siman.

Which is why I asked about the housekeeper cleaning the refrigerator or
freezer, because then the meat is moved.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 When you come to a place of darkness,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   you don't chase out the darkness with a broom.
Author: Widen Your Tent      You light a candle.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF      - R' Yekusiel Halberstam of Klausenberg zt"l

> HM
> Sent from my iPhone, Shirley.

Dr. Rumack: Can you fly this plane, and land it?
Ted Striker: Surely you cant be serious
Rumack: I am serious... and dont call me Shirley.

Rumack: I wont deceive you, Mr. Striker. We're running out of time.
Striker: Surely there must be something you can do.
Rumack: I'm doing everything I can... and stop calling me Shirley!

At 10:05 AM 2/28/2022, Micha Berger wrote:
>The whole point of basar ne'elam min ha'ayin is that yotzei venichnas is
>not sufficient for meat that isn't sealed. So, the Rama in YD 63:2 says
>that we are meiqil on BNMhA, if and only if it was found where you left
>it. The AhS se'if 2 affirms that we are nohagim like the Rama. (Adding
>that we are also lenient in the not applicable case where a "kusi"
>has meat in a town where all the meat in town is kosher.)
>
>And Sepharadim have bigger problems than the AhS's "we, as the BY
>(sei'f 1) is machmir unless you recognize the piece or have a siman.
>
>Which is why I asked about the housekeeper cleaning the refrigerator or
>freezer, because then the meat is moved.

Besides meat and poultry that are factory packaged, the meat and 
poultry that I see sold in stores in Flatbush are in containers that 
are covered and sealed with plastic.  If any of these were tampered 
with, it would be obvious that this occurred. Wouldn't this packaging 
serve as a siman?

The only problem that I can see is if you open a package, use only 
part of it, and put the rest in a plastic bag that is not sealed and 
put it in the refrigerator.

Yitzchok Levine

On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 10:19:15AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote:
> The only problem that I can see is if you open a package, use only part of
> it, and put the rest in a plastic bag that is not sealed and put it in the
> refrigerator.

Or Shabbos leftovers.

This is actually not just a corner case.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

Can people please put a little more effort into trimming their posts, a
quoting only the most relevant parts, instead of the whole thing?
advTHANKSance!

Akiva Miller
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